DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

topcatcbr · 18-06-2008 2:46pm

No6 wrote: »

Topcatcbr I agree a representative body for assessors might not got atray, so far as I see it It has all been at the individuals cost with little or no benifit so far although high oil prices will help change this. Good Idea on the updating thing elocin.

I was refering to a rep body for arch techs in ireland

on the question about do arch techs need to do a surveying course.

i am an arch tech and will agree most of what we were instructed was already second nature to me, i did learn a bit on heating systems (how to recognise a boiler interlock) which i was unsure of before. there is always something to learn. even arch techs dont know everything.

it also means that all are singing from same hymn sheet.

as for course content. it is exactly what you would expect it to be.

1. recognising dwelling age and age of subequent extensions
2. recognising boiler and heaing types
3. getting build insulation levels (non Intrusive)
4. Etc, Etc.

sydthebeat · 18-06-2008 2:50pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

I was refering to a rep body for arch techs in ireland

on the question about do arch techs need to do a surveying course.

i am an arch tech and will agree most of what we were instructed was already second nature to me, i did learn a bit on heating systems (how to recognise a boiler interlock) which i was unsure of before. there is always something to learn. even arch techs dont know everything.

it also means that all are singing from same hymn sheet.

as for course content. it is exactly what you would expect it to be.

1. recognising dwelling age and age of subequent extensions
2. recognising boiler and heaing types
3. getting build insulation levels (non Intrusive)
4. Etc, Etc.

whats the methodology here topcatbr, please? is it based on assumptions of standards at time of build?

topcatcbr · 18-06-2008 2:54pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

whats the methodology here topcatbr, please? is it based on assumptions of standards at time of build?

If you can see the insulation eg. at meter box for wall

look into attic

if not use default data given
age band a,b,c,d, etc = u-value

appendix s
to be given to all assessors who do course
also given to

topcatcbr · 18-06-2008 2:56pm

There was a request for a discussion board on nas for registered BER assessors. It is to be introduced AFAIK

No6 · 18-06-2008 4:00pm

:rolleyes: You mean you don't have to charge a fortune and use a thermal imaging camera!!!:rolleyes: tks for the update syd, I wasn't implying that I thnk I know everything I just don't fancy paying another 500 or for someone to show me how to measure an existing building when maybe a half day course at a reduced cost for the bits I don't know would be much better.I meant a representive body for assessors, arch techs are starting to look after themselves (finally) but I suspect assessors may need one too. A borad on NAS would be a start.:D

topcatcbr · 18-06-2008 4:43pm

No6 wrote: »

:rolleyes: You mean you don't have to charge a fortune and use a thermal imaging camera!!!:rolleyes: tks for the update syd, I wasn't implying that I thnk I know everything I just don't fancy paying another 500 or for someone to show me how to measure an existing building when maybe a half day course at a reduced cost for the bits I don't know would be much better.I meant a representive body for assessors, arch techs are starting to look after themselves (finally) but I suspect assessors may need one too. A borad on NAS would be a start.:D

SEI recon it will take about 3hrs to do one house (survey 40min and complete assessment 2hr20min)

Personaly i think it will be more 4 to 5 hrs
Survey 1.5hrs and 3hrs for assessment
add travel on top

Slig · 18-06-2008 4:58pm

No6 wrote: »

:rolleyes: You mean you don't have to charge a fortune and use a thermal imaging camera!!!:rolleyes: tks for the update syd, I wasn't implying that I thnk I know everything I just don't fancy paying another 500 or for someone to show me how to measure an existing building when maybe a half day course at a reduced cost for the bits I don't know would be much better.I meant a representive body for assessors, arch techs are starting to look after themselves (finally) but I suspect assessors may need one too. A borad on NAS would be a start.:D

If its like the Ber course then you will have to unlearn some items aswell, like how to calculate U-values correctly:D

sinnerboy · 18-06-2008 6:06pm

Slig wrote: »

If its like the Ber course then you will have to unlearn some items aswell, like how to calculate U-values correctly:D

snap :eek:

No6 · 18-06-2008 6:25pm

Slig wrote: »

If its like the Ber course then you will have to unlearn some items aswell, like how to calculate U-values correctly:D

Slig please explian, I was exempt from that part of the course are you saying that the way they are teaching assessors to calculate u values is incorrect or that what we learned in college a million years ago is all wrong?

I assume they are reccomending 40mins survey time for the usual three bed semi and they'll publish a reccomended cost of a BER cert for an existing semi and nobody will pay any more for the big houses, ther's some house it would take 40 mins just to walk around!!! :rolleyes:

topcatcbr · 18-06-2008 9:03pm

40min is their guide for an average home
I dont think they will publish any guide price

topcatcbr · 18-06-2008 9:07pm

Slig wrote: »

If its like the Ber course then you will have to unlearn some items aswell, like how to calculate U-values correctly:D

Part L is quite clear on how to calculate U-Value. This is how I learnd it both in collage and on BER course
How was your experience different.

sinnerboy · 18-06-2008 9:47pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

Part L is quite clear on how to calculate U-Value. This is how I learnd it both in collage and on BER course
How was your experience different.

In my case ..................

floors - instruction was - simply invert the resitances of the sum of the insulation layer and materials over that ( explictly told to disregard perimeter / area ratio )

in case of repeat thermal bridging ( insulation between rafters ) - proportional method was instructed . no mention of upper / lower resistances

cavity walls - no mention of affect of wall ties spec . no mention of reflectant surfaces / emisivities , heat flow direction of air cavities

When I challenged all this the estate agent types ( whose brains were already melting trying to keep up ) made it clear thay did not appreciate the "disruption" .

The instructer told us we could "knock out" asesments in 40 minutes when we got up to speed ............

The quality of assesors will vary .................

topcatcbr · 18-06-2008 10:33pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

The quality of assesors will vary .................

I agree completly. Even on the HER course it was clear to me that there was two distinct bands of people
1 Building Professionals (already employed in construction with professional qualification)
2 The rest (general public with limited building knowladge).

I think people should have been vetted better. Just my own opinion.

sinnerboy · 19-06-2008 1:02pm

Just got this in now from training provider . I wonder
1. what the take up will be and then
2. how rigorous will vetting be ?

**********************************************************

To become registered as a BER Assessor for Non Domestic Buildings Energy

The criteria will include:

· Membership of a professional institution (e.g. Engineers Ireland, RIAI, SCS, CIOB etc)

· Level 8 (honours degree) qualification in a construction or engineering related discipline

· Pass a National SEI examination for Non Domestic Buildings

SEI has confirmed that the exam will follow the BRE SBEM examination format which fits into the UK Competent Persons Scheme framework with Irish variants

Pre Requisites: Participants will be required to have computer skills to at least an ECDL level and be familiar with operating engineering related software applications. To register with SEI as an assessor for non domestic buildings, students must have at least a level 8 degree in an engineering related discipline and be a member of a professional association.

topcatcbr · 19-06-2008 1:33pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

Just got this in now from training provider . I wonder
1. what the take up will be and then
2. how rigorous will vetting be ?

**********************************************************

To become registered as a BER Assessor for Non Domestic Buildings Energy

The criteria will include:

· Membership of a professional institution (e.g. Engineers Ireland, RIAI, SCS, CIOB etc)

· Level 8 (honours degree) qualification in a construction or engineering related discipline

· Pass a National SEI examination for Non Domestic Buildings

SEI has confirmed that the exam will follow the BRE SBEM examination format which fits into the UK Competent Persons Scheme framework with Irish variants

Pre Requisites: Participants will be required to have computer skills to at least an ECDL level and be familiar with operating engineering related software applications. To register with SEI as an assessor for non domestic buildings, students must have at least a level 8 degree in an engineering related discipline and be a member of a professional association.

Again rules out Arch Tech with diploma

sinnerboy · 19-06-2008 1:42pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

Again rules out Arch Tech with diploma

like me ..... but lets see what the take up is

prediction . take up will be small. Pre requirements will swing from too onerous to "bums on seats" .

Oh I am cynical !:cool:

No6 · 19-06-2008 2:37pm

There goes all the AT's then

badolepuddytat · 27-06-2008 1:13am

regarding the non domestic buildings, the SBEM software is significantly more complicated than the DEAP software and would require a good bit of practise to get right for a big building. On the other hand for a small non domestic building, it might be relatively straightforeward. Irecon there won't be a need for a lot of them, and as such will be a niche market.

Regarding the courses for existing dwellings, SEI have published a draft spec that is open to consultation to the industry. There was a lot of feedback on it, and it will change. Any trianing provider who is offering a course is offering it to fill places before they even know what the course is. Ask around for a good training provider, HETAC require much more QA for a course than FETAC. I have spoken to one assessor that did a course with one provider who hadn't a clue, so she went and did a better course and learned what she was suppossed to. Ask around!

Regarding the HESS pilot in Tipp/ limerick and Clare, it is piloting DEAP for existing buildings using the current consultation version of appendix S. Feedback from these assessors should (i hope it does!!) be taken into account by SEI, so let them know where you have issues, they have told me they are all ears!

my two pence worth.

sinnerboy · 27-06-2008 1:12pm

non domestic building vary hugely from very complex to very simple

DEAP should be deemed suitable for many

- high st shops
- doctors surgeries
- small offices ( most particularly - where buildings were houses to begin with )

As things stand SEI have a "blanket" requirement for registration for non dom's for Level 8 qualifications . I can't see this standing up

Imagine client in Small town Main st - living over his newsagents shop

Existing dwellings registered assessor will be deemed ok to label his flat above but not his shop below ? ( which will often be simpler to assess ) Don't see that flying .

No6 · 27-06-2008 1:29pm

I suspect sinnerboy that if they enforce this level 8 qualification for Non Dom the cost of getting same will be quite high especially for smaller buildings such as those you've mentioned above. Perhaps the SEI should consider a graduated system or have a reasonably difficult entrance exam will would allow equal access no matter what level qualification you have but would be based on your ability and capacity to do the job and the higher your qualification the better it should be for you!!

Chimpster · 30-06-2008 11:07am

Well I just caught the tail end of an advert on the Pat Kenny show this morning, it went along the lines of a couple being shown a house and they wanting to see the BER cert...

Hopefully it will help raise the awareness and sure in these tough times they'll appreciate their €25 for their troubles also.

topcatcbr · 01-07-2008 10:26pm

Chimpster wrote: »

Well I just caught the tail end of an advert on the Pat Kenny show this morning, it went along the lines of a couple being shown a house and they wanting to see the BER cert...

Hopefully it will help raise the awareness and sure in these tough times they'll appreciate their €25 for their troubles also.

Yep heard it today in car.

sydthebeat · 02-07-2008 10:09am

just a heads up for everyone.

the transitional arrangements for the BERs on new dwellings are over.
From July 01 2008 any new build not substantially complete (generally considered to be wallplate level) require a BER to be produced on it legally....... so get out there and info the masses.!!

No6 · 02-07-2008 11:15am

Chimpster wrote: »

Hopefully it will help raise the awareness and sure in these tough times they'll appreciate their €25 for their troubles also.

Whats €25 Chimpster, thats only the publication fee payable to the SEI, I hope that they're not advertising the cost of the BER's at €25. I havn't heard an add yet, Must listen to the wrong stations!!

topcatcbr · 02-07-2008 11:58am

No6 wrote: »

Whats €25 Chimpster, thats only the publication fee payable to the SEI, I hope that they're not advertising the cost of the BER's at €25. I havn't heard an add yet, Must listen to the wrong stations!!

No they are not advertising the price.

Chimpster · 02-07-2008 12:36pm

No6 wrote: »

Whats €25 Chimpster, thats only the publication fee payable to the SEI, I hope that they're not advertising the cost of the BER's at €25. I havn't heard an add yet, Must listen to the wrong stations!!

Sorry, crossed wires there No6. They are not advertising the price.

No6 · 02-07-2008 2:13pm

Thanks Chimpster, they've already more or less set the price of BER's at 300 (based on a typical 3 bed semi but it appears to me the the general public have missed that one!!)

topcatcbr · 02-07-2008 2:57pm

No6 wrote: »

Thanks Chimpster, they've already more or less set the price of BER's at 300 (based on a typical 3 bed semi but it appears to me the the general public have missed that one!!)

Where did you see this as i have not been told it.

Slig · 02-07-2008 3:58pm

My laptop died and I lost DEAP. Anybody know where I can get another copy. I contacted SEI and they tried to tell me its on the site but all I can find is the Excel workbook. Unless there is somewhere else I can get it on the site I cant find it.

sydthebeat · 02-07-2008 4:18pm

Slig wrote: »

My laptop died and I lost DEAP. Anybody know where I can get another copy. I contacted SEI and they tried to tell me its on the site but all I can find is the Excel workbook. Unless there is somewhere else I can get it on the site I cant find it.

YOU NEED TO MAIL THEM AGAIN WITH YOUR ASSESSOR NUMBER (oops caps!) and let them know you need a new copy.

Slig · 02-07-2008 4:45pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

YOU NEED TO MAIL THEM AGAIN WITH YOUR ASSESSOR NUMBER (oops caps!) and let them know you need a new copy.

Will do, thanks

No6 · 02-07-2008 5:23pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

Where did you see this as i have not been told it.

Check the BER FAQ, I think its there somewhere, its a what we think it will cost kind of answer!!

topcatcbr · 02-07-2008 5:47pm

I have just seen this

How Much Will a BER Certificate Cost?
The amount of the BER fee will be determined by competition among BER assessors and is currently expected:

generally not to exceed €300 for a new dwelling; and
to be less than €300 for a standard dwelling in a housing estate or a standard apartment in an apartment block.
For non-domestic buildings, BER fees will vary according to whether new or existing, and according to building size and complexity, and so will be expected to range widely.

Assessors are charged a fee of €25 to submit a BER assessment to SEI for publication on the National BER Register.

This is not a reasonable amount for a one off dormer type dwelling.

I am not impressed:mad:

No6 · 02-07-2008 6:05pm

I agree however thats what we are facing, there is a company not too far from me that is doing the cert for 280 (plus VAT & Publication fee) However they are offering a specification improvement service for a mere 500!!! Airtightness testing & Thermal imaging for 500, (there goes the 700 suggested by one training company!!) I asked the SEI are they intending to issue a reccomended cost for a BER of existing houses and they told me they didn't intend too, perhaps they are starting to realise that we don't all live in a typical semi!!

muffler · 02-07-2008 6:46pm

I see in the local papers here that Donegal Co. Council have advertised for suitably qualified assessors to tender for certifying their existing housing stock and an ongoing yearly stock (new) of approx 120 houses. Nice little earner and guaranteed money.

I'd imagine that a lot of the Councils throughout the country will do the same but it begs the question - what the hell do they pay their own staff for? Maybe its a case of having it done independently but then again every large project is designed by private consultants so I suppose they don't want to break with tradition.

Supertech · 02-07-2008 8:53pm

generally not to exceed €300 for a new dwelling;

I knew I'd read that somewhere and I've been trying for months to find it.
I think this figure was in an older version of the relevant section of the Building Control Act.

It's a joke alright, but I've heard rumours of people charging at least double that for preliminary BER Assessments, and that scheme hasn't really kicked in as yet.

On the preliminary certs, the guy that gave our course reckoned 45 minutes to complete - so if you could do them that quick it wouldn't be bad money. But thats with all the information at your finger tips and assuming reasonably straightforward house design. When it comes to actual certs for completed dwellings, by the time you take travel time to and from the site, verification of measurements and of construction methods, calculations and inputting values, it doesn't seem like much. Particularly considering that its then valid for 10 years.

topcatcbr · 02-07-2008 10:00pm

No6 wrote: »

I agree however thats what we are facing, there is a company not too far from me that is doing the cert for 280 (plus VAT & Publication fee) However they are offering a specification improvement service for a mere 500!!! Airtightness testing & Thermal imaging for 500, (there goes the 700 suggested by one training company!!) I asked the SEI are they intending to issue a reccomended cost for a BER of existing houses and they told me they didn't intend too, perhaps they are starting to realise that we don't all live in a typical semi!!

I asked them some months ago were they going to issue a suggested cost for new dwellings and was told they had no intention at that time so obviously things change.

No6 · 03-07-2008 11:29am

Supertech why are you going to the site for assessments of new dwellings, You're supposed to do he certs in splendid isolation relying totally on what the client and contractor tells you they have put in!!! Spot any problems there??

topcatcbr · 03-07-2008 3:14pm

No6 wrote: »

Supertech why are you going to the site for assessments of new dwellings, You're supposed to do he certs in splendid isolation relying totally on what the client and contractor tells you they have put in!!! Spot any problems there??

I have just got a contract from a large firm and plan to get the engineer who did the site supervision to sign off on spec. hopfully this will be suffecient.

No6 · 03-07-2008 5:18pm

Get the engineer, Contractor, Plumber, electrician & Client to sign off on it, that should do, remember SEI are auditing nearly every cert submitted currently. (they arn't that busy!!)

Chimpster · 03-07-2008 7:12pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

I have just got a contract from a large firm and plan to get the engineer who did the site supervision to sign off on spec. hopfully this will be suffecient.

Loads of potential issues alright.

I've got a few contracts myself in the last few months and have done plenty head scratching on it. Because of the current climate you have plenty of time to get your spec implemented successfully.

Who are you going to blame of the right level of air tightness isn't reached?

Are you looking to try and thermal bridge factor below 0.11? How can this be achieved?

Low Energy Lighting %?

Window U Values, defaults or manafacturers data?

With regard to heating systems, getting the proper effeciency of Non HARP units can be fun.

Supertech · 03-07-2008 9:43pm

....remember SEI are auditing nearly every cert submitted currently. (they arn't that busy!!)

Too busy to look below Level 8 though No.6

No6 · 04-07-2008 9:56am

I know supertech what can you do!! I'd humbly suggest that you do a schedule of everything that has been input to DEAP and get the Client & Builder to sign off on it. I wouldn't be to happy if I was certifying generally to be asked to sign off on a BER cert, as I wouldn't have watched everything that went into it.

sydthebeat · 24-07-2008 12:51pm

Has anybody tried to do a DEAP test where the 10kwh/m2/yr renewable requirement under the new regs was achieve through solar gains alone??

Im trying to show this but im not sure how to convert from kwhr/day to kwhr/m2/yr......

say an average of 40kwh/day in a 250 sq m dwelling.

topcatcbr · 24-07-2008 2:36pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

Has anybody tried to do a DEAP test where the 10kwh/m2/yr renewable requirement under the new regs was achieve through solar gains alone??

Im trying to show this but im not sure how to convert from kwhr/day to kwhr/m2/yr......

say an average of 40kwh/day in a 250 sq m dwelling.

40kwh x 365 (1 year) / 250 sq m. = 58kwh/m2/yr
I could be wrong

sydthebeat · 24-07-2008 2:51pm

topcatcbr wrote: »

40kwh x 365 (1 year) / 250 sq m. = 58kwh/m2/yr
I could be wrong

I had looked at that way but i though it couldnt possible be correct. because if it was, the 10kwh/m2/yr would be easily met by even minimum insulation.

In DEAP we are given solar gains as kWh/d and as W

Should i be looking at useful gains i wonder?

sinnerboy · 24-07-2008 4:30pm

The 10kwh/m2/year requirement is as follows ( extracts from TGD L 2007 )

"10 kWh/m2/annum contributing to energy use for domestic hot water heating, space heating or cooling ........

For the purposes of this Section, “renewable energy technologies” means technology, products or equipment that supplies energy derived from
renewable energy sources, e.g. solar thermal systems, solar photo-voltaic systems, biomass systems, systems using biofuels, heat pumps,
aerogenerators and other small scale renewable systems."

Solar gains per se don't count .

I did an assessment on house recently , (TGD 2007 does not have to applied - still in transition period )

House 312 m2
6m2 flat solar thermal panels - DEAP calculated DHW input is 1974 kwh/year
( FYI Gd floor 0.13 , Walls 0.18 , windows ( default ) 2.1 , roof 0.13 )

So they alone wont meet 312 x 10 = 3120 kwh/year requirement . Yikes .
Client would also need to use wood pellet stove for secondary heat source .

At 10% heat supplied DEAP calculates heat required for secondary heat source as 4432 kwh/year . That alone would comply .

Client is informed and is happy not to comply with TGD L 2007 . Wants open fire . Can't blame him really all Wood stove i have seen are awful looking - in my opinion - i don't seek or expect agreement on that .

Syd i hope this helps , or am I missing the point of / mis understanding your query ?

MickLimk · 24-07-2008 4:31pm

My understanding of this particular reg is that you must show a contribution towards the energy that the building needs to import after the design has been completed. I think that this is independent of any reduction in what the actual import requirement is by passive means/good & proper design.

As I said that's my interpretation but I'm wide open to correction on it!

Sinnerboy:
How does the DEAP calculate the input level? In my experience, that 1974 kWh/yr for 6m2 is on the low side...

sinnerboy · 24-07-2008 4:33pm

No . We have spend on technologies . Reason why SEI cut back on grants .

Chimpster · 24-07-2008 4:33pm

Syd,

I doubt that using solar gain to facilitate the requirements will suffice. Good thinking though.

Sinner, would tubes have made much difference I wonder? Had you direct south orientation?

DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

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