Abortion

Peared · 19-04-2008 11:36AM #1

Inspired by the thread in AH.

Im posting this here because I see it as a womens issue. Some may disagree, which is the reason for my post.

DO you view abortion as a womans decision to make or do you think the man should get a say? If so, how much of a say? Should it be equal, should he have the right to overrule if an abortion is planned?

Im also interested to know how preganant/trying to conceive LLers or LL moms would view a friend who had an abortion. Would it change your opinion of her. Would you be able to think the same as her?

Tula · 19-04-2008 12:09PM

Both partners should get equal say. It took both of them to create it so both opinions should be respected. Absolutely, a guy should have the chance to over rule an abortion, it is his child at the end of the day.

Personally I don't believe in abortion but I don't shove my opinions into the faces of others. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and to make their own decisions. As long as that decision is an informed one you should respect your friends choice.

Either way they're gonna need you to be there as a friend, not judging them and shoving your morals into their face.

Oryx · 19-04-2008 12:23PM

Its a very hard call. Ultimately its the woman who has to physically bear the child, but after that fact, both parents should be involved in the childs upbringing. Unfortunately in so many cases, the man has a lot more choice once the child has arrived, and you so often see that the bulk of childcare is left to the woman. Until that inequality changes for everyone, I cant see how a man can claim equal rights if he is not willing to offer equal support afterwards. (I accept there are men that do, but so many dont, and I think some women who choose abortion may realise that.)

I have friends who have had abortions. I cannot judge them as I was never in that positon, and I dont know what circumstances influenced their choice. They are still good people, the abortion didnt change that. I would never write off a person morally based on one difficult decision, who knows what I would choose if faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Even though right now I would say I was anti abortion?

Nevyn · 19-04-2008 12:24PM

I not sure thie topic last here tbh.

Why do people think just becase a person is a parent or more specifically is a mother
that they have not possibly have had an abortion before or after they had kids ?

One thing I will never forget was Susan Sarandon talking at a prochoice rally in the usa and her being nearly 7 months pregant at the time.

If any of my friends were to trust me enough to confide to me that they had had an abortion then they would get a hug and my condolances as it is not an easy thing to do.

And if I was expecting and they told me I would think them brave and understand that being around me must be hard for them. I do think for the most part women who have an abortion will have wished that thier lives and circumtances were different so that the could have the child but wishing it was so doesn't make it happen.

Abortion is still a huge taboo and so few women will admit they have had one as a result and so suffer in slience when things upset them or people make crass comments.

I wrote about this a while back.

http://thaed.journals.ie/2005/08/16/taken-from-humanities/ wrote:

Between January 1980 and December 2004, at least 117,673 women travelled from Ireland for abortion services in Britain. There are no statistics to account for the number of women who travel to other countries for abortion services
http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/iabst.html

These are not facless numbers.

This is your sister, your friend, your work colleage, your aunt, your mother, your girl friend,
your ex girl friend, the person you see on the dart, luas, bus every morning,the girl in the newagents,
or checkouts or the girl that was giving you the eye the last time you were in that bar.

Every one of them made that very hard choice made even harder
by having to travel and in years gone by not being able to get information.

And then you have those that could not get the money together.
Who say they love thier kid but wished thier lifes could have been diffent
but they did not have the money for flights ect.

Ideally every act of conception should be one that both people have planned
but life doesnt work that way, esp with the lack of education and of cheap
contraception in this country.

So we ignore the big taboo.
Women dont tell thier stories.
They dont share why they full of relief, guilt,sadness and happiness twice a year,
usually the date of thier termination and that date the child would hve been born.

Being in the unenvible position of having to think about an abortion is hard.
Having to make that choice is hard.
Having to make an appointment to get information or a referal is hard.
Keeping that appointment and talking out loud about your choice is hard.
Booking flights and traveling over, knowing that the mid morning flights
carry other women like you and the air stewards can spot them is hard.
Having to get into a taxi and give the name of the clinic and seeing the look of sympathy or shock hard.
Facing the dr and the counsellor in the clinic in th UK and having then ask
you if you are sure even after you have travelled all the way there is hard.
Traveling home, telling no one, having to go through the mental , emotional,
horemonal and phsyical aftermath of a termination and most people not knowing what is up with you and you can’t tell them is hard.
Having this topic bandied about by people who have never been through it is hard.
Seeing prolifer nuts on the streets of our city condeming so many women is hard.
Having it used as a political foot ball is hard.
Having it said that it is political foot ball is hard.
Having people make moral judgement about who would or could have a termination is hard.

And they say we DON’T punish women for having abortions in this country don’t make me laugh.

Being able to be there for a friend and travel with them and offer solace
and waiting for thier call or text on those two days a year is hard also
but nothing compared to what they have been through.

And the funny thing is how many 'christians' forget the maxim hate the sin not the sinner.

moco · 19-04-2008 12:44PM

I think it should be a womans choice and a man should not be able to over rule it. It's the woman who carries it and is left with it if the man changes his mind after the baby is born.

Peared · 19-04-2008 12:45PM

Thats why Im interested in the topic Thaedydal, because peoples reactions to it are so instinctive. One of the most anti abortion people I know is a mother who had an abortion in her teens.

Personally it annoys me when I see men waving placards in the street denouncing, well, it seems like all women. That look in their eyes when they see you as a possible "baby killer" because you have the cheek to be female. And I think, f*ck off and stop telling women what to do with their own bodies, you will NEVER know what any of it feels like.

I will hold my hands up now and say that I do not think men should have equal say. In an ideal world maybe, but its far from that. *prepares to be shot down*

The Sweeper · 19-04-2008 01:00PM

I believe men should have two rights: the right to legally argue that a woman go through with a pregnancy on the basis that she then signs away all parental rights to the child and all responsibility of maintenance because he wants to raise the child, and the right to sign away all parental rights and responsibilties of maintenance himself if he has requested a pregnancy not be carried to full term.

19-04-2008 01:04PM

I can't really say I think men should have the right to veto it (so a say, but not entirely equal), but at the same time they shouldn't be forced into paying maintenance either if they don't want it. It's a messy situation really

tallaght01 · 19-04-2008 01:15PM

I would never ever want a pregnancy terminated (unless for medical reasons) where I was the father.

I would be seriously pissed off if the woman decided she was going to have a termination against my wishes. I would rather just take the baby at birth, and raise it myself.

But, I *think* in most cases, people are able to come to an arrangement like adults.

One thing about abortion that always strikes me is how many women have had one, and still conceal it from their current partner. I work in a neonatal unit and, when we admit a sick baby, I always go and see mum to talk to her about her obstetric history, in order to maybe get a clue from past events as to what is causing the problems with her new baby.

I always ask about terminations. They are always honest with me, but many many times I've been asked not to mention it to their current partner.

It's very sad that there are so many women out there carrying that kind of burden, who are afraid to tell their partners. My gut instinct is that women think their boyfriend/husband would hold it against them, but I'd like to think most of us guys would be pretty sympathetic about the whole thing. But who knows, I guess.

I also remember when I started doing neonatology, being surprised at just how common terminations are. I reckon there's a lot of women out there suffering in silence, afraid of what people would think of them.

Nevyn · 19-04-2008 01:33PM

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I believe men should have two rights: the right to legally argue that a woman go through with a pregnancy on the basis that she then signs away all parental rights to the child and all responsibility of maintenance because he wants to raise the child, and the right to sign away all parental rights and responsibilties of maintenance himself if he has requested a pregnancy not be carried to full term.

It sounds good in theory but the first option still leaves a woman with a gap in her employment and career the medical hazards of having the child the family and social pressure to be a mother for she is as unnatural for having the child and not being an active parent.

tallaght01 wrote: »

One thing about abortion that always strikes me is how many women have had one, and still conceal it from their current partner. I work in a neonatal unit, and when we admit a sick baby, I always go and see mum to talk to her about her obstetric history, in order to maybe get a clue from past events as to what is causing the problems with her new baby.

I always ask about terminations. They are always honest with me, but many many times I've been asked not to mention it to their current partner.

It's very sad that there are so many women out there carrying that kind of burden, who are afriad to tell their partners. My gut instinct is that women think their boyfriend/husband would hold it against them, but I'd like to thnk most of us guys would be pretty sympathetic about the whole thing. But who knows, I guess.

Some are not, I know of someone's who's marriage broke down when her husband found out that when she was expecting that she had an abortion while a teen, which left her then raising the child on her own.

When I was having my first booking in visit with when I was expecting my youngest there were two nurses in training sitting in on the paper work.
One of the questions is about previous pregnancy they don't ask an expectant mother if she has had an abortion or termination.

When I commented on the wording and that fact one of them took such a sharp breath and looked very uncomfortable and said we don't talk about those types of things here of all places and I told her if she can't be a professional about all aspects of a woman's medical history pertaining to a woman's pregnancy then she should think about not becoming a midwife,
for I would hate to think of what can happen due to complications due to the medical history being incomplete due to prejudice.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I also rememeber when I started doing neonatology, being surprised at just how common terminations are. I reckon there's a lot of women out there sufering in silence, afraid of what people would think of them.

That is very much the case.

tallaght01 · 19-04-2008 01:44PM

It's pretty disappointing if they're still nowadays not asking women about a history of terminations.

Under some circumstances, this is pretty important info to know. If the termination is the woman's first pregnancy, there might be issues with her rhesus incompatibility status, and some other issues.

It's also imporant to know, as the termination might have happened for medical reasons (ie the child may have had a congenital abnormality), meaning that the current pregnancy might be high risk etc.

We certainly always had this info (as long as mum divulged it) in the UK and New Zealand, and we have it here in Oz.

Nevyn · 19-04-2008 02:12PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's pretty disappointing if they're still nowadays not asking women about a history of terminations.

Under some circumstances, this is pretty important info to know. If the termination is the woman's first pregnancy, there might be issues with her rhesus incompatibility status, and some other issues.

It's also imporant to know, as the termination might have happened for medical reasons (ie the child may have had a congenital abnormality), meaning that the current pregnancy might be high risk etc.

We certainly always had this info (as long as mum divulged it) in the UK and New Zealand, and we have it here in Oz.

Over here they ask have you been pregnant before or how many times have you been pregnant. After that it is left to a woman to disclose or not what happened.

allabouteve · 19-04-2008 04:00PM

I volunteered in a women's shelter for a long time in Oz, and one of the hidden abuses that became apparent was the number of women who had been bullied or cornered into abortion by their abusers. Often an abdominal beating would be administered to make the woman afraid of foetal damage, and then the pressure would start. This was very common among street sex workers and their pimps (this shelter was in a very tough, inner city red light district). On topic, I don't think a man should have any legal say on abortion, as the burden of pregnancy and birth is solely female, and many abusive types would exploit any legalitites to control the woman.

spinandscribble · 19-04-2008 04:07PM

when i was younger and had a more positive outlook on people i used to think men should have a equal say. that was until i noticed women being told not to get abortions as 'the fella' wanted to keep it and then feck off once its born. now im uncertain.

Maple · 19-04-2008 04:10PM

I would never judge a woman who has had an abortion, never.

@ Thaed your journal post was very moving and so very true. to make the decision to have an abortion must be, in most cases, one of the most crucifying decisions a woman will ever have to make. she might, in some circumstances, be part of a couple but essentially at the end of the day it is the womans call as it is her body that carries the child. it is such a taboo in this country. the cloud of secrecy and guilt surrounding it makes me sick.

a friend of mine had an abortion, she was in an alleged loving relationship at the time however he showed his true colours on the appearance of the two blue lines. i believe he is still running. the guilt and secrecy and the shame half killed her, she's still not the person she once was and she never will be again. how could i judge her when she is so obviously broken? how could i judge her when every day she judges herself?

when i was so younger i was anti-abortion, extremely so. now i'm older and more realistic, babies are not always a blessing from heaven.

Quality · 19-04-2008 04:28PM

Personally I am against abortion, This is coming from an expectant mother with 2 kids. I also had an unplaned teenage pregnancy and for me abortion never crossed my mind. On saying that, not everyones situation is the same as what mine was at the time

I do think that it is a woman's choice on if she wants to go through with or not. I wont be out lobbying against abortion.

I have 2 friends who have had abortions and I do not judge them for what they have done. At the time it was their decision and that is for them to deal with. They are my friends and my feelings haven't changed about them. I will always be there for them.

With regards to men its a hard one. A partner can be involved in the decision but the woman has to decide.

As far as I know an unmarried man who fathers a child in Ireland has the same rights as a sperm donor ie.none. (feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

With no legal right, Men don't have a right to have a say. Sad but true.

ali.c · 19-04-2008 06:11PM

Right just my 2c, not anti abortion but not pro abortion either would be pro choice. Personally if i was in a commited relationship it would be something i would want my OH to have an input. If it is a casual relationship then IMHO the guy really doesnt really have much of a right to an input.

Fundamentally though I am pro a woman's right to chose more than a man's right to have a input (or indeed veto) on it. In an ideal world people would discuss and come to a joint decision but for me I think ultimately if no agreement can be made then whatever the woman decides should be the course taken.

MizzLolly · 19-04-2008 07:46PM

I'm 100% against abortion. I don't agree with it at all. I personally would not consider an abortion, the very topic upsets me. I find it hard to even read articles about it as I get so distressed from them.

Having said that, I am aware that some women choose to have their pregnancy terminated. I do think that the father should have equal rights in any decision involving his child.

I don't know if that idea works out for pro-choice believers however. If they do believe that a feotus is not a human life, then there is hardly any need to ask the sperm donor's consent to abort it, right?! I don't know. It's all very confusing. Not a subject I'm comfortable with at all but for what it's worth, if a woman is adamant that she wants to terminate her pregnancy, then I believe that the father of the baby should be consulted.

Peared · 19-04-2008 10:32PM

Actually thats a very good point you make mizlolly about the pro choice not a life men thing.

Id be interested to hear from some pro choice men about that.

Dudess · 19-04-2008 10:49PM

I don't understand the term "pro choice". Does it mean a person's opposed to abortion but doesn't have a problem with women having abortions? Wouldn't that mean they weren't opposed to abortion so?

Peared · 19-04-2008 10:54PM

I think thats the general gist of it Dudess. Tis a minefield. I suppose its cos you cant really describe yourself as "pro abortion". T'would be taking things a bit too far.

The Sweeper · 19-04-2008 11:00PM

Dudess wrote: »

I don't understand the term "pro choice". Does it mean a person's opposed to abortion but doesn't have a problem with women having abortions? Wouldn't that mean they weren't opposed to abortion so?

Dudess I'm going to put the cat amongst the pigeons here and say it's a either a euphemism for 'pro abortion' or a nice way to say 'Well, I woudln't abort my OWN child, but you can do what you like...'

Me, I'm pro-abortion. Hideous as it sounds, I stand over my beliefs and I believe 'pro choice' is a euphemistic term.

I'm also pro detailed sex education, female fertility education for girls who've started menstruating (with the level of detail given to older women trying to conceive), free sexual health information and clinics, free condoms and lots of other free things... ('cept free love.)

ali.c · 20-04-2008 12:12AM

Duddess, when i say i am pro choice i mean i am pro a woman's right to chose irregardless of of the choice she makes. Not that i think abortion is the best or the most suitable solution but I personally respect each individual woman's right to chose.

Gordon · 20-04-2008 12:26AM

Thaedydal wrote: »

It sounds good in theory but the first option still leaves a woman with a gap in her employment and career the medical hazards of having the child the family and social pressure to be a mother for she is as unnatural for having the child and not being an active parent.

* Gap in employment: isn't there maternity leave that takes care of that?
* Medical hazards: surely if there are medical hazards then this will be taken into consideration?
* Social pressure: that's the persons fault for bending to whatever current trend to keep up with the Joneses happens to be. "What will people think of me?"?

the_syco · 20-04-2008 12:49AM

Dudess wrote: »

I don't understand the term "pro choice". Does it mean a person's opposed to abortion but doesn't have a problem with women having abortions? Wouldn't that mean they weren't opposed to abortion so?

My view on it:

Pro-choice = we don't give a f**k, but we'll tell you about both ways.

Pro-life = you're going to hell unless you keep your baby, but we'll bomb a few clinics, and kill a few doctors to make sure they can't kill people...

JC 2K3 · 20-04-2008 12:54AM

I'm pro-abortion for unplanned pregnancies.

I don't think the man should have the right to veto abortion in unplanned pregnancies. I think maybe they should have the right to veto a pregnancy, but with the societal mindset the way it is, that's not going to happen.

However, I think that if it can be proven that a pregnancy was planned by the man and woman, that the man should have the right to veto an abortion and no right to veto a pregnancy.

MizzLolly · 20-04-2008 12:56AM

the_syco wrote: »

My view on it:

Pro-choice = we don't give a f**k, but we'll tell you about both ways.

Pro-life = you're going to hell unless you keep your baby, but we'll bomb a few clinics, and kill a few doctors to make sure they can't kill people...

Eh, excuse me! I'm pro-life and I most definately do not think anyone should go to 'hell'. That's horrible.

Also, I for one can honestly say that I have never bombed anything or murdered anyone.

Dudess · 20-04-2008 01:09AM

Yeah the_syco, not all pro-lifers are nut jobs. The term "pro life" has become a bit of a dirty one though, MizzLolly - thanks to the likes of Justin Barrett and Youth Defence.

Peared wrote: »

I suppose its cos you cant really describe yourself as "pro abortion". T'would be taking things a bit too far.

That's what I thought - a form of tiptoeing.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Me, I'm pro-abortion.

Me too. Sure, I don't think it's something to be taken lightly and I certainly wouldn't agree with just having abortions any time one feels like it (but then I doubt many people would) however, sometimes it's the best option given the circumstances. And it's an extraordinarily difficult and painful decision, which may haunt the woman for the rest of her life. So I wouldn't be in favour of it unless it really was the best/only option and I do think each individual case needs to be examined on its own merits, but I'm still not opposed to abortion and often agree that it's the right thing to do under certain circumstances... which makes me pro abortion.

Queen-Mise · 20-04-2008 01:09AM

Gordon wrote: »

* Gap in employment: isn't there maternity leave that takes care of that?
* Medical hazards: surely if there are medical hazards then this will be taken into consideration?
* Social pressure: that's the persons fault for bending to whatever current trend to keep up with the Joneses happens to be. "What will people think of me?"?

Gordon, the issue with gap in employment is not the maternity leave and money (although partly), it is the gap in your experience in your work place with promotions, contracts, contacts, etc etc. A woman having a tough pregnancy, could well be out of work for bones of a year (including recuperation afterwards). This kind of a gap makes a big difference in a work place and her male/female counterparts, where they have progressed and she hasn't.

The same is very similar again for medical hazards, if as the person you quoted said, that the man (should) have a choice to force a woman through a pregnancy. What are the consequences of that for a woman? What happens if this was a rape? The consequences would be very subjective, for each & every woman.

Personally for me, if i was forced to go through, a pregnancy i didn't want. i would nearly class it as rape of my body, at the worst. I would have serious issues with it. It would be a form of kidnapping.

I have no comment on the social pressure. not my place to judge.

And i would definitely be in the pro-abortion camp & pro-choice too.

tallaght01 · 20-04-2008 01:27AM

I'm surprised at how many of the women are against males having a huge input into the decision. I think it's pretty harsh, to be honest. Sure, the burden of pregnancy falls on the woman, and I don't mean to trivialise that. But it's only 9 (long and difficult) months, out of an entire life. I personally think I would struggle to fully recover if a woman i'd slept with terminated the resultant child.

I also disagree with the_syco's definition of being pro-life. I guess i'm pro-life, but maybe i'm not, in the strictest sense. I would never ever want a child I'd helped conceive aborted, unless there were pretty solid medical reasons for doing so. The concept of abortion does make me uncomfortable.

BUT, I have enormous sympathy for women who find themselves in a situation where they feel they have no option other than a termination. Regardless of how "pro-abortion" you might be, that choice must leave a scar somewhere.

I've also, back in the day, referred several women for abortions. I would never ever mention my own opinions on the subject to them. In fact, I was always quite supportive and, I hope, sympathetic.

So, I'll join the Q of "pro-lifers" who haven't bombed a clinic or shot a doctor

MizzLolly · 20-04-2008 02:07AM

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm surprised at how many of the women are against males having a huge input into the decision. I think it's pretty harsh, to be honest. Sure, the burden of pregnancy falls on the woman, and I don't mean to trivialise that. But it's only 9 (long and difficult) months, out of an entire life. I personally think I would struggle to fully recover if a woman i'd slept wih terminated the resultant child.

I also disagree with the_syco's definition of being pro-life. I guess i'm pro-life, but maybe i'm no, in the strictest sense. I would never ever want a child I'd helped conceive aborted, unless there were pretty solid medical reasons for doing so. The concept of abortion does make me uncomfortable.

BUT, I have enormous sympathy for women who find themselves in a situaion where they feel they have no option oher than a termination. Regardless of how "pro-abortion" you might be, that choice must leave a scar somewhere.

I've also, back in the day, referred several women for abortions. I would never ever mention my own opinions on the subject to them. In fact, I was always quite supportive and, I hope, sympathetic.

So, I'll join the Q of "pro-lifers" who haven't bombed a clinic or shot a doctor

+1

I'm pretty shocked at the amount of women who believe that the decision is to be made by the mother.

Of course being 'pro-life' doesn't make me heartless against women who feel desperate enough that terminating is their only option. Having said that, it is not something I would encourage either. Of course I feel sympathy for a woman who feels that she has to abort her baby. I feel very differently about women who have had two, three and even four terminations however. That is not something I am comfortable discussing at all.

It is easy to dismiss 'pro-lifers' as being old fashioned, religious, harsh or whatever but I think the main thing that must be considered is that, to a pro-life person, a 'feotus' is a human. It is a little baby in my opinion. In saying that, I respect the fact that not everybody agrees, I do not understand it but I respect it. So really, I am not being heartless in saying that I'm anti abortion. I do not intend on offending anybody. To me, it feels heartless to imagine thousands of babies terminated every year. To me, that is suffering. I know that the mother suffers too, I am not denying that. Again that is just my opinion and I do not intend to offend anybody.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that pro life is not intended to harm the mother but more to protect the child. Pro-lifers can hardly be considered heartless. This is all just my own opinion, I do not wish to force it upon anybody, I am not judging anybody and I am not saying that because it is my opinion, it is 'right'. I do not have the answers and I'm not in a position to say what is right or wrong. My 'pro-life' ways are purely from my own emotion and my own sense of morality. I just feel that it is a pity that by 'defending' something that I hold sacred (a human life) I am automatically labelled as 'offending' the mother. I would never want to inflict further pain to a person who is already torn.

I do not shoot people and I do not believe that anybody should suffer. Mother and baby alike.

Abortion

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