Abortion

Peared

Inspired by the thread in AH.

Im posting this here because I see it as a womens issue. Some may disagree, which is the reason for my post.

DO you view abortion as a womans decision to make or do you think the man should get a say? If so, how much of a say? Should it be equal, should he have the right to overrule if an abortion is planned?

Im also interested to know how preganant/trying to conceive LLers or LL moms would view a friend who had an abortion. Would it change your opinion of her. Would you be able to think the same as her?

Tula

Both partners should get equal say. It took both of them to create it so both opinions should be respected. Absolutely, a guy should have the chance to over rule an abortion, it is his child at the end of the day.

Personally I don't believe in abortion but I don't shove my opinions into the faces of others. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and to make their own decisions. As long as that decision is an informed one you should respect your friends choice.

Either way they're gonna need you to be there as a friend, not judging them and shoving your morals into their face.

Oryx

Its a very hard call. Ultimately its the woman who has to physically bear the child, but after that fact, both parents should be involved in the childs upbringing. Unfortunately in so many cases, the man has a lot more choice once the child has arrived, and you so often see that the bulk of childcare is left to the woman. Until that inequality changes for everyone, I cant see how a man can claim equal rights if he is not willing to offer equal support afterwards. (I accept there are men that do, but so many dont, and I think some women who choose abortion may realise that.)

I have friends who have had abortions. I cannot judge them as I was never in that positon, and I dont know what circumstances influenced their choice. They are still good people, the abortion didnt change that. I would never write off a person morally based on one difficult decision, who knows what I would choose if faced with an unplanned pregnancy. Even though right now I would say I was anti abortion?

Nevyn

I not sure thie topic last here tbh.

Why do people think just becase a person is a parent or more specifically is a mother
that they have not possibly have had an abortion before or after they had kids ?

One thing I will never forget was Susan Sarandon talking at a prochoice rally in the usa and her being nearly 7 months pregant at the time.


If any of my friends were to trust me enough to confide to me that they had had an abortion then they would get a hug and my condolances as it is not an easy thing to do.

And if I was expecting and they told me I would think them brave and understand that being around me must be hard for them. I do think for the most part women who have an abortion will have wished that thier lives and circumtances were different so that the could have the child but wishing it was so doesn't make it happen.

Abortion is still a huge taboo and so few women will admit they have had one as a result and so suffer in slience when things upset them or people make crass comments.

I wrote about this a while back.

http://thaed.journals.ie/2005/08/16/taken-from-humanities/ wrote:

Between January 1980 and December 2004, at least 117,673 women travelled from Ireland for abortion services in Britain. There are no statistics to account for the number of women who travel to other countries for abortion services
http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/iabst.html

These are not facless numbers.

This is your sister, your friend, your work colleage, your aunt, your mother, your girl friend,
your ex girl friend, the person you see on the dart, luas, bus every morning,the girl in the newagents,
or checkouts or the girl that was giving you the eye the last time you were in that bar.

Every one of them made that very hard choice made even harder
by having to travel and in years gone by not being able to get information.

And then you have those that could not get the money together.
Who say they love thier kid but wished thier lifes could have been diffent
but they did not have the money for flights ect.

Ideally every act of conception should be one that both people have planned
but life doesnt work that way, esp with the lack of education and of cheap
contraception in this country.

So we ignore the big taboo.
Women dont tell thier stories.
They dont share why they full of relief, guilt,sadness and happiness twice a year,
usually the date of thier termination and that date the child would hve been born.

Being in the unenvible position of having to think about an abortion is hard.
Having to make that choice is hard.
Having to make an appointment to get information or a referal is hard.
Keeping that appointment and talking out loud about your choice is hard.
Booking flights and traveling over, knowing that the mid morning flights
carry other women like you and the air stewards can spot them is hard.
Having to get into a taxi and give the name of the clinic and seeing the look of sympathy or shock hard.
Facing the dr and the counsellor in the clinic in th UK and having then ask
you if you are sure even after you have travelled all the way there is hard.
Traveling home, telling no one, having to go through the mental , emotional,
horemonal and phsyical aftermath of a termination and most people not knowing what is up with you and you can’t tell them is hard.
Having this topic bandied about by people who have never been through it is hard.
Seeing prolifer nuts on the streets of our city condeming so many women is hard.
Having it used as a political foot ball is hard.
Having it said that it is political foot ball is hard.
Having people make moral judgement about who would or could have a termination is hard.

And they say we DON’T punish women for having abortions in this country don’t make me laugh.

Being able to be there for a friend and travel with them and offer solace
and waiting for thier call or text on those two days a year is hard also
but nothing compared to what they have been through.

And the funny thing is how many 'christians' forget the maxim hate the sin not the sinner.

moco

I think it should be a womans choice and a man should not be able to over rule it. It's the woman who carries it and is left with it if the man changes his mind after the baby is born.

Peared

Thats why Im interested in the topic Thaedydal, because peoples reactions to it are so instinctive. One of the most anti abortion people I know is a mother who had an abortion in her teens.

Personally it annoys me when I see men waving placards in the street denouncing, well, it seems like all women. That look in their eyes when they see you as a possible "baby killer" because you have the cheek to be female. And I think, f*ck off and stop telling women what to do with their own bodies, you will NEVER know what any of it feels like.

I will hold my hands up now and say that I do not think men should have equal say. In an ideal world maybe, but its far from that. *prepares to be shot down*

The Sweeper

I believe men should have two rights: the right to legally argue that a woman go through with a pregnancy on the basis that she then signs away all parental rights to the child and all responsibility of maintenance because he wants to raise the child, and the right to sign away all parental rights and responsibilties of maintenance himself if he has requested a pregnancy not be carried to full term.

I can't really say I think men should have the right to veto it (so a say, but not entirely equal), but at the same time they shouldn't be forced into paying maintenance either if they don't want it. It's a messy situation really

tallaght01

I would never ever want a pregnancy terminated (unless for medical reasons) where I was the father.

I would be seriously pissed off if the woman decided she was going to have a termination against my wishes. I would rather just take the baby at birth, and raise it myself.

But, I *think* in most cases, people are able to come to an arrangement like adults.

One thing about abortion that always strikes me is how many women have had one, and still conceal it from their current partner. I work in a neonatal unit and, when we admit a sick baby, I always go and see mum to talk to her about her obstetric history, in order to maybe get a clue from past events as to what is causing the problems with her new baby.

I always ask about terminations. They are always honest with me, but many many times I've been asked not to mention it to their current partner.

It's very sad that there are so many women out there carrying that kind of burden, who are afraid to tell their partners. My gut instinct is that women think their boyfriend/husband would hold it against them, but I'd like to think most of us guys would be pretty sympathetic about the whole thing. But who knows, I guess.

I also remember when I started doing neonatology, being surprised at just how common terminations are. I reckon there's a lot of women out there suffering in silence, afraid of what people would think of them.

Nevyn

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I believe men should have two rights: the right to legally argue that a woman go through with a pregnancy on the basis that she then signs away all parental rights to the child and all responsibility of maintenance because he wants to raise the child, and the right to sign away all parental rights and responsibilties of maintenance himself if he has requested a pregnancy not be carried to full term.

It sounds good in theory but the first option still leaves a woman with a gap in her employment and career the medical hazards of having the child the family and social pressure to be a mother for she is as unnatural for having the child and not being an active parent.

tallaght01 wrote: »

One thing about abortion that always strikes me is how many women have had one, and still conceal it from their current partner. I work in a neonatal unit, and when we admit a sick baby, I always go and see mum to talk to her about her obstetric history, in order to maybe get a clue from past events as to what is causing the problems with her new baby.

I always ask about terminations. They are always honest with me, but many many times I've been asked not to mention it to their current partner.

It's very sad that there are so many women out there carrying that kind of burden, who are afriad to tell their partners. My gut instinct is that women think their boyfriend/husband would hold it against them, but I'd like to thnk most of us guys would be pretty sympathetic about the whole thing. But who knows, I guess.

Some are not, I know of someone's who's marriage broke down when her husband found out that when she was expecting that she had an abortion while a teen, which left her then raising the child on her own.

When I was having my first booking in visit with when I was expecting my youngest there were two nurses in training sitting in on the paper work.
One of the questions is about previous pregnancy they don't ask an expectant mother if she has had an abortion or termination.

When I commented on the wording and that fact one of them took such a sharp breath and looked very uncomfortable and said we don't talk about those types of things here of all places and I told her if she can't be a professional about all aspects of a woman's medical history pertaining to a woman's pregnancy then she should think about not becoming a midwife,
for I would hate to think of what can happen due to complications due to the medical history being incomplete due to prejudice.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I also rememeber when I started doing neonatology, being surprised at just how common terminations are. I reckon there's a lot of women out there sufering in silence, afraid of what people would think of them.

That is very much the case.

tallaght01

It's pretty disappointing if they're still nowadays not asking women about a history of terminations.

Under some circumstances, this is pretty important info to know. If the termination is the woman's first pregnancy, there might be issues with her rhesus incompatibility status, and some other issues.

It's also imporant to know, as the termination might have happened for medical reasons (ie the child may have had a congenital abnormality), meaning that the current pregnancy might be high risk etc.

We certainly always had this info (as long as mum divulged it) in the UK and New Zealand, and we have it here in Oz.

Nevyn

tallaght01 wrote: »

It's pretty disappointing if they're still nowadays not asking women about a history of terminations.

Under some circumstances, this is pretty important info to know. If the termination is the woman's first pregnancy, there might be issues with her rhesus incompatibility status, and some other issues.

It's also imporant to know, as the termination might have happened for medical reasons (ie the child may have had a congenital abnormality), meaning that the current pregnancy might be high risk etc.

We certainly always had this info (as long as mum divulged it) in the UK and New Zealand, and we have it here in Oz.

Over here they ask have you been pregnant before or how many times have you been pregnant. After that it is left to a woman to disclose or not what happened.

allabouteve

I volunteered in a women's shelter for a long time in Oz, and one of the hidden abuses that became apparent was the number of women who had been bullied or cornered into abortion by their abusers. Often an abdominal beating would be administered to make the woman afraid of foetal damage, and then the pressure would start. This was very common among street sex workers and their pimps (this shelter was in a very tough, inner city red light district). On topic, I don't think a man should have any legal say on abortion, as the burden of pregnancy and birth is solely female, and many abusive types would exploit any legalitites to control the woman.

spinandscribble

when i was younger and had a more positive outlook on people i used to think men should have a equal say. that was until i noticed women being told not to get abortions as 'the fella' wanted to keep it and then feck off once its born. now im uncertain.

Maple

I would never judge a woman who has had an abortion, never.

@ Thaed your journal post was very moving and so very true. to make the decision to have an abortion must be, in most cases, one of the most crucifying decisions a woman will ever have to make. she might, in some circumstances, be part of a couple but essentially at the end of the day it is the womans call as it is her body that carries the child. it is such a taboo in this country. the cloud of secrecy and guilt surrounding it makes me sick.

a friend of mine had an abortion, she was in an alleged loving relationship at the time however he showed his true colours on the appearance of the two blue lines. i believe he is still running. the guilt and secrecy and the shame half killed her, she's still not the person she once was and she never will be again. how could i judge her when she is so obviously broken? how could i judge her when every day she judges herself?

when i was so younger i was anti-abortion, extremely so. now i'm older and more realistic, babies are not always a blessing from heaven.

Quality

Personally I am against abortion, This is coming from an expectant mother with 2 kids. I also had an unplaned teenage pregnancy and for me abortion never crossed my mind. On saying that, not everyones situation is the same as what mine was at the time


I do think that it is a woman's choice on if she wants to go through with or not. I wont be out lobbying against abortion.

I have 2 friends who have had abortions and I do not judge them for what they have done. At the time it was their decision and that is for them to deal with. They are my friends and my feelings haven't changed about them. I will always be there for them.

With regards to men its a hard one. A partner can be involved in the decision but the woman has to decide.

As far as I know an unmarried man who fathers a child in Ireland has the same rights as a sperm donor ie.none. (feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)

With no legal right, Men don't have a right to have a say. Sad but true.

ali.c

Right just my 2c, not anti abortion but not pro abortion either would be pro choice. Personally if i was in a commited relationship it would be something i would want my OH to have an input. If it is a casual relationship then IMHO the guy really doesnt really have much of a right to an input.

Fundamentally though I am pro a woman's right to chose more than a man's right to have a input (or indeed veto) on it. In an ideal world people would discuss and come to a joint decision but for me I think ultimately if no agreement can be made then whatever the woman decides should be the course taken.

MizzLolly

I'm 100% against abortion. I don't agree with it at all. I personally would not consider an abortion, the very topic upsets me. I find it hard to even read articles about it as I get so distressed from them.

Having said that, I am aware that some women choose to have their pregnancy terminated. I do think that the father should have equal rights in any decision involving his child.

I don't know if that idea works out for pro-choice believers however. If they do believe that a feotus is not a human life, then there is hardly any need to ask the sperm donor's consent to abort it, right?! I don't know. It's all very confusing. Not a subject I'm comfortable with at all but for what it's worth, if a woman is adamant that she wants to terminate her pregnancy, then I believe that the father of the baby should be consulted.

Peared

Actually thats a very good point you make mizlolly about the pro choice not a life men thing.

Id be interested to hear from some pro choice men about that.

Dudess

I don't understand the term "pro choice". Does it mean a person's opposed to abortion but doesn't have a problem with women having abortions? Wouldn't that mean they weren't opposed to abortion so?

Peared

I think thats the general gist of it Dudess. Tis a minefield. I suppose its cos you cant really describe yourself as "pro abortion". T'would be taking things a bit too far.

The Sweeper

Dudess wrote: »

I don't understand the term "pro choice". Does it mean a person's opposed to abortion but doesn't have a problem with women having abortions? Wouldn't that mean they weren't opposed to abortion so?

Dudess I'm going to put the cat amongst the pigeons here and say it's a either a euphemism for 'pro abortion' or a nice way to say 'Well, I woudln't abort my OWN child, but you can do what you like...'

Me, I'm pro-abortion. Hideous as it sounds, I stand over my beliefs and I believe 'pro choice' is a euphemistic term.

I'm also pro detailed sex education, female fertility education for girls who've started menstruating (with the level of detail given to older women trying to conceive), free sexual health information and clinics, free condoms and lots of other free things... ('cept free love.)

ali.c

Duddess, when i say i am pro choice i mean i am pro a woman's right to chose irregardless of of the choice she makes. Not that i think abortion is the best or the most suitable solution but I personally respect each individual woman's right to chose.

Gordon

Thaedydal wrote: »

It sounds good in theory but the first option still leaves a woman with a gap in her employment and career the medical hazards of having the child the family and social pressure to be a mother for she is as unnatural for having the child and not being an active parent.

* Gap in employment: isn't there maternity leave that takes care of that?
* Medical hazards: surely if there are medical hazards then this will be taken into consideration?
* Social pressure: that's the persons fault for bending to whatever current trend to keep up with the Joneses happens to be. "What will people think of me?"?

the_syco

Dudess wrote: »

I don't understand the term "pro choice". Does it mean a person's opposed to abortion but doesn't have a problem with women having abortions? Wouldn't that mean they weren't opposed to abortion so?

My view on it:

Pro-choice = we don't give a f**k, but we'll tell you about both ways.

Pro-life = you're going to hell unless you keep your baby, but we'll bomb a few clinics, and kill a few doctors to make sure they can't kill people...

JC 2K3

I'm pro-abortion for unplanned pregnancies.

I don't think the man should have the right to veto abortion in unplanned pregnancies. I think maybe they should have the right to veto a pregnancy, but with the societal mindset the way it is, that's not going to happen.

However, I think that if it can be proven that a pregnancy was planned by the man and woman, that the man should have the right to veto an abortion and no right to veto a pregnancy.

MizzLolly

the_syco wrote: »

My view on it:

Pro-choice = we don't give a f**k, but we'll tell you about both ways.

Pro-life = you're going to hell unless you keep your baby, but we'll bomb a few clinics, and kill a few doctors to make sure they can't kill people...

Eh, excuse me! I'm pro-life and I most definately do not think anyone should go to 'hell'. That's horrible.

Also, I for one can honestly say that I have never bombed anything or murdered anyone.

Dudess

Yeah the_syco, not all pro-lifers are nut jobs. The term "pro life" has become a bit of a dirty one though, MizzLolly - thanks to the likes of Justin Barrett and Youth Defence.

Peared wrote: »

I suppose its cos you cant really describe yourself as "pro abortion". T'would be taking things a bit too far.

That's what I thought - a form of tiptoeing.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Me, I'm pro-abortion.

Me too. Sure, I don't think it's something to be taken lightly and I certainly wouldn't agree with just having abortions any time one feels like it (but then I doubt many people would) however, sometimes it's the best option given the circumstances. And it's an extraordinarily difficult and painful decision, which may haunt the woman for the rest of her life. So I wouldn't be in favour of it unless it really was the best/only option and I do think each individual case needs to be examined on its own merits, but I'm still not opposed to abortion and often agree that it's the right thing to do under certain circumstances... which makes me pro abortion.

Queen-Mise

Gordon wrote: »

* Gap in employment: isn't there maternity leave that takes care of that?
* Medical hazards: surely if there are medical hazards then this will be taken into consideration?
* Social pressure: that's the persons fault for bending to whatever current trend to keep up with the Joneses happens to be. "What will people think of me?"?

Gordon, the issue with gap in employment is not the maternity leave and money (although partly), it is the gap in your experience in your work place with promotions, contracts, contacts, etc etc. A woman having a tough pregnancy, could well be out of work for bones of a year (including recuperation afterwards). This kind of a gap makes a big difference in a work place and her male/female counterparts, where they have progressed and she hasn't.

The same is very similar again for medical hazards, if as the person you quoted said, that the man (should) have a choice to force a woman through a pregnancy. What are the consequences of that for a woman? What happens if this was a rape? The consequences would be very subjective, for each & every woman.

Personally for me, if i was forced to go through, a pregnancy i didn't want. i would nearly class it as rape of my body, at the worst. I would have serious issues with it. It would be a form of kidnapping.

I have no comment on the social pressure. not my place to judge.

And i would definitely be in the pro-abortion camp & pro-choice too.

tallaght01

I'm surprised at how many of the women are against males having a huge input into the decision. I think it's pretty harsh, to be honest. Sure, the burden of pregnancy falls on the woman, and I don't mean to trivialise that. But it's only 9 (long and difficult) months, out of an entire life. I personally think I would struggle to fully recover if a woman i'd slept with terminated the resultant child.

I also disagree with the_syco's definition of being pro-life. I guess i'm pro-life, but maybe i'm not, in the strictest sense. I would never ever want a child I'd helped conceive aborted, unless there were pretty solid medical reasons for doing so. The concept of abortion does make me uncomfortable.

BUT, I have enormous sympathy for women who find themselves in a situation where they feel they have no option other than a termination. Regardless of how "pro-abortion" you might be, that choice must leave a scar somewhere.

I've also, back in the day, referred several women for abortions. I would never ever mention my own opinions on the subject to them. In fact, I was always quite supportive and, I hope, sympathetic.

So, I'll join the Q of "pro-lifers" who haven't bombed a clinic or shot a doctor

MizzLolly

tallaght01 wrote: »

I'm surprised at how many of the women are against males having a huge input into the decision. I think it's pretty harsh, to be honest. Sure, the burden of pregnancy falls on the woman, and I don't mean to trivialise that. But it's only 9 (long and difficult) months, out of an entire life. I personally think I would struggle to fully recover if a woman i'd slept wih terminated the resultant child.

I also disagree with the_syco's definition of being pro-life. I guess i'm pro-life, but maybe i'm no, in the strictest sense. I would never ever want a child I'd helped conceive aborted, unless there were pretty solid medical reasons for doing so. The concept of abortion does make me uncomfortable.

BUT, I have enormous sympathy for women who find themselves in a situaion where they feel they have no option oher than a termination. Regardless of how "pro-abortion" you might be, that choice must leave a scar somewhere.

I've also, back in the day, referred several women for abortions. I would never ever mention my own opinions on the subject to them. In fact, I was always quite supportive and, I hope, sympathetic.

So, I'll join the Q of "pro-lifers" who haven't bombed a clinic or shot a doctor

+1

I'm pretty shocked at the amount of women who believe that the decision is to be made by the mother.

Of course being 'pro-life' doesn't make me heartless against women who feel desperate enough that terminating is their only option. Having said that, it is not something I would encourage either. Of course I feel sympathy for a woman who feels that she has to abort her baby. I feel very differently about women who have had two, three and even four terminations however. That is not something I am comfortable discussing at all.

It is easy to dismiss 'pro-lifers' as being old fashioned, religious, harsh or whatever but I think the main thing that must be considered is that, to a pro-life person, a 'feotus' is a human. It is a little baby in my opinion. In saying that, I respect the fact that not everybody agrees, I do not understand it but I respect it. So really, I am not being heartless in saying that I'm anti abortion. I do not intend on offending anybody. To me, it feels heartless to imagine thousands of babies terminated every year. To me, that is suffering. I know that the mother suffers too, I am not denying that. Again that is just my opinion and I do not intend to offend anybody.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that pro life is not intended to harm the mother but more to protect the child. Pro-lifers can hardly be considered heartless. This is all just my own opinion, I do not wish to force it upon anybody, I am not judging anybody and I am not saying that because it is my opinion, it is 'right'. I do not have the answers and I'm not in a position to say what is right or wrong. My 'pro-life' ways are purely from my own emotion and my own sense of morality. I just feel that it is a pity that by 'defending' something that I hold sacred (a human life) I am automatically labelled as 'offending' the mother. I would never want to inflict further pain to a person who is already torn.

I do not shoot people and I do not believe that anybody should suffer. Mother and baby alike.

ellenmelon

I'm pro-choice.

I don't think a father should overrule any decision. Really, why should he have a veto vote over something like that? and then risk a woman having to bear a child she doesn't want.
There are so many factors that come into it; the mental health of the mother, the economic situation of either parent, possible genetic/inherited problems which could manifest in the baby...

As for midwives/neonate nurses etc asking about abortions...I don't see why it should be a problem, its just that there are lot of very old school midwives out there who wouldn't DREAM of asking such a question. (the old bats.)Often they can't keep professional about it so maybe it's better they dont. I know in Limerick Mat. they ask about the relation of the mother to the father and its just a standard question, I would think that's more uncomfortable to ask!

Gordon

queen-mise wrote: »

Personally for me, if i was forced to go through, a pregnancy i didn't want. i would nearly class it as rape of my body, at the worst. I would have serious issues with it. It would be a form of kidnapping.

I'm sure many men may say that it can be classed as a rape of their life if the mother is forcing an abortion when the father doesn't want one, or vice versa.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

I think both the man and woman should have an equal say in the matter

MizzLolly

Gordon wrote: »

I'm sure many men may say that it can be classed as a rape of their life if the mother is forcing an abortion when the father doesn't want one, or vice versa.

I totally agree. Have to say that comment about an unwanted pregnancy being a 'rape' of somebody's body, bugged the (beep!) outta me!

BrynW wrote: »

I think both the man and woman should have an equal say in the matter

Yeah, it's only fair. Just because the guy doesn't physically carry the baby he is still the father and should have a say in whether or not the pregnancy is terminated.
Say for example, if the mother was 'pro-choice' and seen her pregnancy as nothing other than an inconvenience but the baby's father was like myself and was distressed by the topic of abortion. Do you really think it's fair to deny him any say in whether his baby lives or dies? Again, you've got to keep in mind, that to a 'pro-life' believer, that feotus is a baby. I know it's hard to understand but please try.

I can't imagine how distressed a man who had the same views I do on abortion, would feel if his baby was terminated. I just think that it's very, very harsh.

ChewChew

Definitley it should be a choice made by both parties.

I am in 2 different minds about it TBH. Sometimes I am for, sometimes against. I know of only 1 woman who had an abortion and it was a choie made by both herself and her partner. looking at it now, I think it was the best decision.

I also think that abortion is used too lightly in the UK by woman. Girls use it almost as a form of contraception, and when get caught out sure off they go to the clinic. I completely disagree with this. But it is so easy to access these clinics in the UK that it is easier for woman to choose this option. And as far as I am aware (and I stand to be corrected on this) the NHS do this procedure free of charge.

Agent Smith

<--- pro life

i'd rather raise the child myslef, if the option was that or abort it.
the idea sickens me

daiixi

So the father wants the pregnancy to go ahead and the mother doesn't. Seems like a stale-mate to me. Who gets to cast the deciding vote?

I'm pretty sure, if I decided it was the right thing, that I could go through with an abortion. I really don't think, right thing or not, that I could go through with giving up my child. I suppose it comes down to what you personally consider abortion to be. For me, I don't consider it murder of a baby because I don't really consider it to be a baby at that stage. Then again, I don't know at what stage I do consider it to be a baby.

I know people who have had abortions and it doesn't change the way I think about them at all. I'm not that shallow.

I don't think, unless you're in the person actually in the situation, that you really have a right to say anything about the situation.

the_syco

ChewChew wrote: »

I also think that abortion is used too lightly in the UK by woman. Girls use it almost as a form of contraception, and when get caught out sure off they go to the clinic. I completely disagree with this. But it is so easy to access these clinics in the UK that it is easier for woman to choose this option. And as far as I am aware (and I stand to be corrected on this) the NHS do this procedure free of charge.

+1. They seem to do it a bit too freely, but meh. It's their right to choose. If the father doesn't want the baby, tough sh|te, he'll still have to pay maintenance for the child for the next 18 years. If he wants her to keep it, but she doesn't, it's her choice.

Tin Goddess

Women using abortion as a means of contraception? Similar to the old if we make emergency contraception more easily availible they will all be using that .... No woman and i do mean NO woman thinks screw the condom I can just have an abortion. This view is incredibly disrespectiful of women. yes there are women who end up having multple aboritons but try to remember that even the best of contraceptives have a 1-2% failure rate. Over the course of her lifetime a woman could expect to have multiple pregnancies even if they always use contraceptives. and anyway the majority of women seeking terminatiosn were using a contraceptive at the time that failed.


And we should all try to remember that in the contaceptive game it takes two to tango.... for every woman who takes a risk and ends up pregnant there is a man who did the same ... they just dont end up in the stirrups afterwards. so to say that "women" Are using it as a form of contraception is a little bit disengenuous

iguana

I do believe that the man's opinion should be listened to and seriously considered, but at the end of the day it is the woman's decision. It is her body and there is no getting away from that. If science was a point where the fetus could be removed in a similar procedure to an abortion and implanted in a surrogate then the man could have an equal say. But until that point the ultimate decision will lie with the woman.

However if a woman has an abortion against the desire of the man, then it needs to be respected that he may grieve in a similar way as he would to a miscarriage and possible be incredibly angry with the woman.

tallaght01

I think Tin Goddess makes a good point. Using abortion as a contraceptive, or getting an abortion at the drop of a hat are, I believe, much less common than some people would have us believe.

Sure, there's lots of stories about girls going into the their doc, and getting chalked down for an abortion, with apparent indifference.

But, when I spent some time working in GP land I used to see these girls. They were typically about 18-23. They would walk in the door and sit down. I'd say "how can I help you?", and they'd just say "I want an abortion". If I said nothing else, and just put their name on a list then they'd be happier. Of course, I would ask some basic medical questions, to which I always got one word answers. Then I would ask if they'd liek to have a chat about it....."No", was always the answer. Would they like to talk to someone else, perhaps one of the lady docs, or our practise nurse? "No".

One word answers, and a very distant attitude. It makes a lot of people think they don't care. It makes it all sound very easy. But they do care, and it's not easy.

They just don't want to talk about it in a lot of cases. They're often ashamed, scared or angry. Like teenagers with attitude, they often look like they don't care about anything. And, also like teenagers with attitude, they can be feeling a world of hurt and confusion that it's difficult for them to explain, and it's difficult for us to empathise with.

So, invariably, they toddle off home. They've got their termination booked. hey've refused professional care, so they never learn to take control of their sexuality. They refuse a follow-up witht he practise nurse for contraception advice, so they don't lear why they get pregnant in the first place. They don't tell family about what they're going through, so their self esteem diminishes.

No-one needs me to tell them that women with low self esteem/depression don't find it easy to take control over things like regular contraception, and they find it difficult to be assertive about their sexuality.

So the cycles continiues, a year later, at their GP with one word answers, another abortion, and refusing all help.

I had a lot of sleepless nights over these poor girls.

Reku

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I believe men should have two rights: the right to legally argue that a woman go through with a pregnancy on the basis that she then signs away all parental rights to the child and all responsibility of maintenance because he wants to raise the child, and the right to sign away all parental rights and responsibilties of maintenance himself if he has requested a pregnancy not be carried to full term.

I think you have just perfectly covered my concerns over the issue from protecting the man's rights, but at the same time is forcing the woman to carry what is effectively a parasite (sorry but from a scientific definition that's what it is) for 9 months really fair on her, I wouldn't think so. Also what happens if she decides at the end that she can't just forget the child and does want to be part of it's life after signing away the right to such? On one side they would need to ensure the contract were iron clad as regards preventing the male doing a runner at the last minute when he had signed up to be the sole carer, but at the same time there is the issue of women deciding that they do want to be a mum at the last minute.

The case that this topic makes me think of is the one of the couple who had had embryos frozen and then split, the woman wanted to use the embryos but the man had withdrawn his consent and insisted that they be destroyed. I know this terminology may upset some, but had she been allowed to have the embryos implanted it would have been the equivalent of genetic rape against the man.

tallaght01 wrote: »

One thing about abortion that always strikes me is how many women have had one, and still conceal it from their current partner. I work in a neonatal unit and, when we admit a sick baby, I always go and see mum to talk to her about her obstetric history, in order to maybe get a clue from past events as to what is causing the problems with her new baby.

I always ask about terminations. They are always honest with me, but many many times I've been asked not to mention it to their current partner.

If surveys are to be believed then there was one that was referenced on after hours that said that a large % of women will also lie to their partner about whether they are on the pill in order to get pregnant. In so far as it is their own body I feel this is fair enough, but at the same time the men should have the right to have some say in the consequences of such actions.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Some are not, I know of someone's who's marriage broke down when her husband found out that when she was expecting that she had an abortion while a teen, which left her then raising the child on her own.

Her ex-husband is an a55 IMO, to get so irate over a child that was not his to abandon one that is!:mad:
To even hold the fact that she'd had an abortion as a teen against her is unfair IMO, as you have no idea how she felt at the time and all the things that were going through her head. This pisses me off as much as people passing such judgements on those who've have tried/succeeded to commit suicide. That pro-lifers have tried to force victims of rape to carry the children spawned of that act is just awful I feel, how is she supposed to start getting over the nightmare when she has a constant reminder growing inside her. Some women will manage not to let the feelings spill over to the foetus/child but others can't, this is in no way a failing on their part and they should not have to answer for it. I think the phrase "you don't know, you weren't there!" pretty much sums it up.:mad:

One thing I would definitely say is that Ireland should legalise abortion since the need to travel to get one only puts extra strain on the woman's body and increases the likelyhood of complications as a result.


I worry a bit that this topic might also upset some of those who've had miscarriages, it's a loss that no-one other than the woman who's had it happen can understand, for them to lose a child while another is throwing one away must seem cruel and I hope that none of them are upset reading this topic.
But then I suppose I'm possibly letting my views on life make the wording of my post a bit more harsh than it might be otherwise, for which I am sorry, as TBH there is a part of me often horrified that anyone would condemn a soul to this world, but that's my problem, not their's, though at the same time part of me questions if it's right to kill someone, whether they've yet been born or not *brainfry*.

Abortion is just one of those issues that's guaranteed to get strong emotions going I guess....

Dudess

There is one relatively well known woman who claims to treat having an abortion as, in her own words, "getting her tonsils out" and that is Julie Burchill - sh1t-stirring, sensationalist columnist. I imagine her words must hurt some people terribly.

marti101

i think as someone whos had 3 miscarriages i dont view someone having an abortion as throwing the baby away it must be terribly hard to go through with one.i know some one who had an abortion but at the time she was alone and had nobody to look out for her .also on the issue on the man having equal say i dont think they should as we dont know what kind of fathers they make they might be there physically but whether they help with the baby once its born is another thing.i dont think an abortion is an easy thing to go through,as many women who have bortion already have kids so it can and does happen to anybody we dont know how we are going to react unless we are in the situation

Dragan

I'm not going to pull any quotes from the thread but quite frankly the people who think the man should have no say in the situation have raised my hackles quite a bit.

There still seems to be some kind of underlying attitude that if a girl should get pregnant and it was not planned that this is somehow completely the mans fault and frankly it pissed me off.

Whatever way anyone likes to look at it there are THREE lives in the balance in this one. I know plenty of couples who have found themselves dealing with an unplanned pregnancy some have kept the child and split, some have kept the child and stayed together, some have opted for abortion and split and some have opted for abortion and stayed together.

Each case is completely individual and for anyone who is not involved to look from the outside, knowing none of the story and make these peoples choice for them is hypocrisy of the highest order.

It worries me that there are people out there who would look at me as a man and expect me to rally up to the responsibilities of a parenthood that i was effectively forced into.

Sure, you can say if you don't want to deal with it then don't have sex, but that applies to the woman as well.

The double standards that exist in some peoples minds when it comes to sex, parenthood and abortion are incredible.

Then again i imagine for those same people my opinion does not count as i have the audacity to be man.

Shame on me.

NextSteps

Yes, but can you really say that a man may force the woman either to abort or to keep a pregnancy that she doesn't want? And in case of a stand-off...?

Ideally, it's a joint decision. But this is not the kind of discussion that takes place under ideal circumstances.

Dragan

UB wrote: »

Yes, but can you really say that a man may force the woman either to abort or to keep a pregnancy that she doesn't want? And in case of a stand-off...?

Well a couple of folk here seem to think it is okay to force the man into Fatherhood but of course that is not what i am saying.

What i am saying is the man has a right to express whether he wants to be a father or not in the same way has the woman has a right to express whether or not she wants to be a mother.

Sometimes the decisions matches , sometimes it does not, either way each case is way too individual for one rule to be applied and is something that should be sorted between the two people and whoever else they choose to involve.

And as hopeless as a man's say normally is in these situations at least give us the ****ing chance to express it.

But some men are pimps, and some men will administer a beating to a pregnant lass and some men are scum so obviously none of us should have a say in things.

NextSteps

Dragan wrote: »

What i am saying is the man has a right to express whether he wants to be a father or not in the same way has the woman has a right to express whether or not she wants to be a mother.

Sometimes the decisions matches , sometimes it does not, either way each case is way too individual for one rule to be applied and is something that should be sorted between the two people and whoever else they choose to involve.

And as hopeless as a man's say normally is in these situations at least give us the ****ing chance to express it.

But some men are pimps, and some men will administer a beating to a pregnant lass and some men are scum so obviously none of us should have a say in things.

Absolutely. I wasn't disagreeing with this at all! Mind you,

Dragan wrote: »

Well a couple of folk here seem to think it is okay to force the man into Fatherhood but of course that is not what i am saying.

This is a bit dodgy. If a woman chooses (for any of a thousand reasons) not to abort, then the man becomes a father. It is not a question of forcing, it is an inevitability. And sometimes responsibilities are inevitable and undeniable - I think this is one of those cases.

The Sweeper

I disagree, UB - I think men should be allowed to legally sign away all rights and responsibilities to a child that they did not want, especially if that starts during pregnancy - e.g. if he wants her to abort the child when she discovers she's eight weeks pregnant, and he continues to want that through the pregnancy, I believe he should be allowed to sign away his rights and his responsibilities.

I don't believe it should apply into the life of the child (e.g. you don't get to piss off when the kid's two because it all got too hard).

If it's made to be a legal process, it'll be a one-off expense that I believe would deter most tossers from using it as a "form of contraception" as it were. (Similarly to how abortion really isn't a form of contraception either.)

tallaght01

Dragan, I think the problem is that the people you're talking about are getting too caught up with pregnancy being the cenral issue here. It seems that in some people's heads it's all about the pregnancy. The woman has to carry the baby, therefore she has to have the choice.

From a woman's poin of view, that might make sense. But from a guy's point of view, it's a little hard to digest. Sure, the woman has to go through 9months of pregnancy. Sure, labour can be unpleasant. I've been to deliveries where mums have died.

But, like I said before, the issue is the life of this kid. Pregnancy/labour is only 9months of that.

Very few people (of those I've spoken to about their reasons) get abortions because they don't want to go through labour. They get them because the time isn't right for them to raise a child, or the circumstances are wrong.

Therefore, I agree with Dragan. It does grind my gears to listen to some people who think men are going to do a runner etc. I can tell you, I've looked after MANY MANY babies int he past that have been abandoned byt heir mother. We men don't have a monopoly on it.

I accept, though, that most threads on here been reasonable, regardless of what side of the fence you fall down on. But there's always those who are too polarised to see past the gender issue.

If we argued that these choices be made on the basis of a physical characteristic that is unique to men, the same people would label us mysogynistic. We can't help that we can't give birth. Why does that mean that we can't have a say over whether our unborn child lives or dies?