[US/IRL] 3X16 - "One Of Us" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

stevejazzx · 17-04-2007 11:48PM

Mordeth wrote:

I thought that juliet meant what she wrote in the video, but now that the sub is gona she doesn't really have a choice.. she's stuck as part of ben's family for better or for worse.. and she has just had to accept that

I think the con started just before bens operation. He ordered her to kill pickett and manipulate jack. The trick is the wirters showing her genuine desire to go home in a flasbacks right up to season 3 ep 1 but the real clue is when ben asks 'you don't doubt jacob do you? in refernece to her sisters cancer being cured. So from this we can gather Juliet has been thorugh the video brainwashing thing like carl. She is essentially brainwashed. So her sense of rigth and wrong isn't apparent to her. Anyway i think ultimately the plan between ben and the losties is to help them with smokey and his judgement.

Sad Professor · 17-04-2007 11:54PM

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stevejazzx wrote:

I like the second paragraph buy have you got a link to the first paragraph podcast you speak of? I'm sure ben knew everything about the button in the hatch.

Linky. I'm fairly sure it was the March 20th podcast. But I was able to find this transcript of the relevant section also.

Q: Did the Others or Hostiles know about the Swan station and about the number pushing or does it not not matter to them if it imploded?

Carlton: I think this is a fair question to answer.

Damon: It is a very fair question. I don't think they did know.

Carlton: Yeah.

Damon: i don't think they knew about the existence of the Swan station. For one, Kelvin is down there continuing to push the button even before Desmond comes for all that time. Well after we know that this purge allegedly occurred. And the Others have completely left him alone, so...if they do know about it--

Carlton: It might make some sense to, that if the--if there was an incident in the Swan station and there was this electromagnetic anomaly, and this sort of Chernobyl kind of circumstance there, the DHARMA guys wouldn't want a lot of other people to know about it. I mean that would be a definite 'need to know basis' because of that kind of circumstance, wouldn't it?

Damon: yeah. it would. And we know that in the pearl station they monitor the Swan station, so it's possible that the Others found out about the Swan station once the Oceanic survivors show up. Once Locke found the Hatch. It's possible that they were able to check it out. But...I don't know. Maybe we'll be finding out about that in the next couple of weeks, Carlton?

Carlton: Uhhhhh...we might. we might learn a little bit more about that.

{conversation slips into possible spoiler material about upcoming episodes}

Carlton: I think there knowledge of the Swan was pretty limited. I think when Ben came over there and saw that these people were pushing a button every 108 minutes I think his scepticism was genuine.

Damon: I agree.

Carlton: Alright. I think that was pretty good...

AFAIK this was recorded after 3x12 aired so the future episode they talk about is Exposé

ZiabR · 18-04-2007 09:23AM

8

Faith wrote:

The hatch only exploded 16 or so days ago, in Lost time.

Aye Faith you are right, still i just thought it strange that no one has even tried to contact them in 16 days. I mean usually there would be weekly reports at least.

stevejazzx · 18-04-2007 09:58AM

Sad Professor wrote:

Linky. I'm fairly sure it was the March 20th podcast. But I was able to find this transcript of the relevant section also.

AFAIK this was recorded after 3x12 aired so the future episode they talk about is Exposé

Hmmmm There doesn't seem to be anything in that link which confirms they(the others) didn't know...just kind of speculation that from their perspective they shouldn't have known. But surely mittleos is a part dharma ? And we see Ben with the mittleos guy? Besides two things point very directly to Ben kowing:

a) The smile after he's back in his cell after his crawled through the vent and Locke can't be sure if he's pushed the button. He's leaves locke agonising over whether or not the button has been pressed and he's happy, in a evil contented kind of way.

and most importantly

b) When the sky turns purple the others especially Ben don't react. They are on the Pier at this time. There is no way that the sky turning purple and a piercing sound echoing through the sky is normal even for the Island therefore they would have questioned it immediately unless they knew exactly what it was.

gazzer · 18-04-2007 11:44AM

Well like I said in an earlier post I am going with the theory that the submarine can travel at a really fast speed.. Juliet was given the drink so that her body would be relaxed and ready for the trip. When she looked at the video link with her sister Ben then told Richard to hurry back cos of the crash.. it was said as if Richard could be back in a few minutes.

Sad Professor · 18-04-2007 12:10PM

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You're right of course, stevejazzx, but they always speculate like that in podcasts, "maybe", "perhaps", "assume", etc. AFAIK they have to speak that way because ABC would have their heads if they confirmed anything from an upcoming episode. They aren't allowed give away spoilers but they get around this by speculating instead. They've confirmed many things for the fans in the past this way.

Hyzepher · 18-04-2007 12:16PM

DamoElDiablo wrote:

Thats it, she didn't know there was an airfield out there because there wasn't... it was to trick people into thinkin they were going on a plane, taking the sedative for the "bumpy ride" (I ain't gettin on no plane fool! ) when it was to sedate them to get them on the sub!

Thats what I think anyway...

I think if you look closely you can see planes out of the window etc. So it looks like there is a airfield there. anyway there is no way of knowing if they had to take a plane journey to get to the sub or not.

The main reason they use a sub is probably to avoid detection from international air traffic control, who would be suspicious of a plane in the middle of nowhere that suddenly vanishes. Subs are harder to detect.

ZiabR · 18-04-2007 12:21PM

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Hyzepher wrote:

I think if you look closely you can see planes out of the window etc. So it looks like there is a airfield there. anyway there is no way of knowing if they had to take a plane journey to get to the sub or not.

The main reason they use a sub is probably to avoid detection from international air traffic control, who would be suspicious of a plane in the middle of nowhere that suddenly vanishes. Subs are harder to detect.

Good point mate, that would explain one reason why they would favour a sub over an aircraft. Still there is no runway on the Island and the sub seemed to get to the camp by means of underwater tunnels. That i feel is the main reason for the sub.

stevejazzx · 18-04-2007 12:22PM

Sad Professor wrote:

You're right of course, stevejazzx, but they always speculate like that in podcasts, "maybe", "perhaps", "assume", etc. AFAIK they have to speak that way because ABC would have their heads if they confirmed anything from an upcoming episode. They aren't allowed give away spoilers but they get around this by speculating instead. They've confirmed many things for the fans in the past this way.

what do you make of the sky turning purple and the others just standing around as if were a commmon occurence?

Hyzepher · 18-04-2007 12:29PM

stevejazzx wrote:

what do you make of the sky turning purple and the others just standing around as if were a commmon occurence?

I dont think we should put much importance on that, afterall the losties back at camp didn't exactly go ape either. I would say that the electro blast hadn't happened before - hence the beacon breaking, lost communications etc.

I think the purple sky has something to do with the blast hitting/rebounding off whatever keeps the island hidden.

Sad Professor · 18-04-2007 12:50PM

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stevejazzx wrote:

what do you make of the sky turning purple and the others just standing around as if were a commmon occurence?

Well Ben seemed surprised imo, so I don't think it was a common occurrence. If they knew about the hatch's importance would they have really left the losties to blow it up? Had it not being for Desmond activating the failsafe (blowing the damn) something far worse (a Chernobyl type incident?) might have happened. And Ben didn't know anything about a boat till season 3 so I don't think they knew about Desmond coming back.

The way the Others keep referring to the "sky turning purple" makes me think they don't know what happened. But they must have some idea.

ZiabR · 18-04-2007 12:53PM

8

Sad Professor wrote:

Well Ben seemed surprised imo, so I don't think it was a common occurrence. If they knew about the hatch's importance would they have really left the losties to blow it up? Had it not being for Desmond activating the failsafe (blowing the damn) something far worse (a Chernobyl type incident?) might have happened. And Ben didn't know anything about a boat till season 3 so I don't think they knew about Desmond coming back.

The way the Others keep referring to the "sky turning purple" makes me think they don't know what happened. But they must have some idea.

One thing that springs to mind is Tom. Remember when Jack was operating on Ben, and Tom was getting friendly with Jack. Tom was just about to say something about when the sky went purple before Jack shouted across him through the radio to Kate.

I got the impression that Tom didn't know what the purple sky was, or where it came from.

stevejazzx · 18-04-2007 01:16PM

I imagined two about Tom/Zeke (is his name tom?)

When he said that(about sky turning purple), I believed he just out of the loop? or either playing his cards close to his chest. I believe that communications were down as a result of the hatch but i reckon ben expected that.
I'm having a hard time reconciling the Mittleos guy and ben being together and Ben not knowing about the hatch. Surely the Mittloes guy knew about dharma and the swan hatch? Ben seemed to be pretty much in charge of him, second in command apart from Jacob, unless of course he is Jacob.
Imagine ben didn't know anything about the swan hatch, why would he be that sceptical about it's importance? Unless, he knew about all the other Dharma experiments except the Hatch and figured out they were experiments and therefore concluded the hatch too must be fake but in a recent backstory of Nikkis we see him and juliet accesing the flame hatch via undergound tunnels(most probably) and they (the others) were defintiely in cadecus hatch where kate found the disguises, so we are to imagine they knew about and used all the hatches except the swan?
That doesn't make sense to me. Surely they watched Jack and Co use the swan like in Nikkis backstroy and surely they were intrigued as to what the button did? And surely they know there is EM field generated from the swan hatch which protects the Island from radar etc? ben keeps saying that noone can see the Island. Surely they knew that the button released the magnets build up? Especially after seeing the losties plane pulled apart by the magnet in season 3 ep 1. I mean come on!

Hyzepher · 18-04-2007 01:54PM

I think it would be useful to try and understand what the Swan was being used for. Why was it building up electromagnetic energy - maybe to power something. But now that it's gone, we really haven't seen anything that's different - the island is still hidden etc. So it's hard to see what the energy was being used for - if anything.

Unless it was being used to prevent something from occuring naturally. And now that is building up and we'll see the results very soon.

Personally I dont think the Others knew what went on in the Swan - the monitoring from the Pearl was limited. I think they saw the video in the Pearl and assumed it was an experiment - unless they came across the pile of notes from the Pearl and knew that was fake also. I think Ben entered the numbers as he was unsure of the outcome if he didn't - he just told Locke a lie to give him an advantage

ZiabR · 18-04-2007 03:13PM

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Yes but if Ben has been there all his life and many of the Others have been there for years, do you not think they would know the island very well by now. They must have known about Desmond and the purpose he served. If they were to interfere with what he was doing he might have refused to continue his work and that would be bad for the Others. The man in the hatch with Desmond, until the day Desmond killed him was an Other, so the must know about the Swan and its purpose.

Sinfonia · 18-04-2007 03:17PM

logik wrote:

The man in the hatch with Desmond, until the day Desmond killed him was an Other, so the must know about the Swan and its purpose.

Kelvin?? How do you know that?

Hyzepher · 18-04-2007 03:32PM

logik wrote:

Yes but if Ben has been there all his life and many of the Others have been there for years, do you not think they would know the island very well by now. They must have known about Desmond and the purpose he served. If they were to interfere with what he was doing he might have refused to continue his work and that would be bad for the Others. The man in the hatch with Desmond, until the day Desmond killed him was an Other, so the must know about the Swan and its purpose.

The way i see it is this. Dharma arrived on the island - how they found it I dont know - if we belive Ben then the Others or part of, were there when Dharma arrived. Now the bit that's hard to understand is how did Dharma construct all the hatches, smokey etc both on the main and smaller island, and remain there for a number of years without help/aid from the Others. I would imagine that at some point the Others welcomed Dharma onto the island. This does not mean that the Others were privvy to what Dharma was doing - it quite possible that when they did truely understand the nature of Dharma, the Others decided enough was enough and tried to get rid of them.

Kelvin wasn't an Other - not even sure he was Dharma.

I am wondering if the Others tried to communicate with Kelvin or desmond the same way they communicated with Michael - via the computer. I think that maybe the warning from Dharma not to use the computer for anything else but entering the numbers might be related to the initial incident - maybe the Others - via the computer - tricked the Dharma guys in teh Swan from doing something that caused a problem.

Also, I wonder is the issue with conception a new issue that the Others have been faced with. Juliette has only been there 3 years or so. If the problem had been around for longer I'm sure they would have a lot more fertility doctors on board or contacted Juliette earlier. Also the world of fertility is like any other medical clique - the good doctors know each other, read about each other - so why doesn't Julieete know any of the existing doctors onthe island?

Sad Professor · 18-04-2007 04:08PM

9

I'm not really sure what connection the Others have with Dharma. For a while I was thinking that the Others were the original inhabitants of the island and Dharma were the invaders but I'm not so sure it's that simple anymore. For a start it seems very few of the Others were born there, most were recruited (which suggests they are former Dharma). When Jack asked Juliet if her people were leftovers of Dharma she said "It doesn't matter who we were. It only matters who we are."

Also if the Others were the original inhabitants one might assume they were descended from Magnus Hanso, the captain of the Black Rock who is buried on the island. Rousseau said the Others came from the Black Rock. But it was Magnus' grandson Alvar Hanso who founded Dharma. It doesn't add up. It's possible of course there was already people living on the island when Magnus Hanso showed up there but it's unlikely they are Ben's people.

In 3x13 we see a painting of a blond woman holding a hamster on Ben's wall who looks a lot like Karen DeGroot, who along with her husband Gerald came up with the idea for the Dharma Initiative.

Here's a theory:

Perhaps the Others are former Dharma but there was a split. At some point Ben (or Jacob) led a rebellion against the Dharma regime which had become corrupt (this would match with a lot of Emerson's ideas about his character). They killed/drove away the old leadership and hid the island from Dharma, perhaps now led by Charles Widmore who has his daughter now looking for the island.

Imagine if Des is successful in making the island visible/contacting the outside world and in the season finale rescuers led by Penny arrive on the island only for the Losties to realise at the last moment that they are in fact the real bad guys who Ben was trying to keep out.

Just a theory

ZiabR · 18-04-2007 05:08PM

8

Well i think Dharma were first to arrive on the island. The bunker system is extremely old and goes way underground. If you look at the vegetation, it seems the jungle has had many 10's of years to grow over the hatches. The origin of the others still confuses me.

Dharma may have been doing human experiments and the others led by Jacob escaped from them.

mr_angry · 18-04-2007 06:19PM

7

Sad Professor wrote:

We don't know for certain yet but I've always had a hard time believing Ethan could have managed to do this by himself. Even with help it would have been difficult. He also later told Claire he let Charlie go. I think he may have been telling the truth and Smokey attacked Charlie afterwards. Remember Charlie was dead till Jack resuscitated him.

I think Charlie's memories of what happened may return one day.

That would be very interesting. I'd forgotten about Charlie's memory-loss.

Here's another interesting question: with the amount that Juliette knows about the Losties, shouldn't she know that Christian Shepherd is the father of both Jack and Claire? And for that matter, shouldn't she know about all of the co-incidences involving the characters? That could make her short stay in the camp very interesting, if she decided to play on any of it.

upmeath · 18-04-2007 06:35PM

8

logik wrote:

Well i think Dharma were first to arrive on the island. The bunker system is extremely old and goes way underground. If you look at the vegetation, it seems the jungle has had many 10's of years to grow over the hatches. The origin of the others still confuses me.

Dharma may have been doing human experiments and the others led by Jacob escaped from them.

Eh... Dharma first to arrive on the island? What about the big foot? Surely that predates any hatch. I'm starting to think lately that the Others may be something akin to the Ancients in FFVII, if anyone's familiar with that game. This is their ancestral homestead, their little Zion, they want to inhabit this place undisturbed and peacefully forever.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the bunker system is extremely old, I'm thinking no more than perhaps 60 years. Mankind had neither the means of transporting the necessary materials and equipment from one continent to another nor constructing such installations prior to WWII. The use of geodesic domes in the structure of the Swan is in keeping with the design of U.S. and French military installations in the South Pacific in the 1950s and 1960s (e.g. Bikini Atoll, Midway, Muraroa Atoll, all the Micronesian test sites). While this design had been employed in construction since 1922, it only became popularised by Fuller in the early 1950s, I think 1952 is accurate.

18-04-2007 06:56PM

The man in the hatch with Desmond, until the day Desmond killed him was an Other, so the must know about the Swan and its purpose.

See.. I don't think so exactly. I think Kelvin was the last Dharma member. I believe in the season 2, he once referred to some "hostiles". Can anyone else remember this?

Is it possible that ever since the leak (the one that made them press the button in the first place) they cannot fly planes over. There was no piece of evidence to say that the airdrop had been done recently (not as far as I can re-call). And this is why they use the sub to get to the island.

Sad Professor · 18-04-2007 07:17PM

9

Deleted User wrote:

See.. I don't think so exactly. I think Kelvin was the last Dharma member. I believe in the season 2, he once referred to some "hostiles". Can anyone else remember this?

Yeah the first two mentions of "hostiles" was in the season 2 finale. Kelvin said "Well, you want to go out there with the quarantine and the Hostiles?" and then later when Sayid was borrowing the boat Desmond asked him if he was going to visit the Hostiles.

Is it possible that ever since the leak (the one that made them press the button in the first place) they cannot fly planes over. There was no piece of evidence to say that the airdrop had been done recently (not as far as I can re-call). And this is why they use the sub to get to the island.

I think they still can (see next eps promo and sneak peak). But how they find the island, I don't know.

Also I don't think the Dharma facilities are that old, they were probably built in the 70's sometime (which is when Dharma was formed I think). We should find out in 3x20

.

Spiritus Mundi# · 18-04-2007 08:22PM

I havent actually read the whole thread in its entirety so if this has been mentioned already , apologies in advance....

I was never in the Scouts or anything, but i'm pretty sure that the very last scene in the episode when Juliette was putting up her shelter, she tied the rope in a cross-tie....twice..... a double-cross !!!! which way to interpret that im not sure but seems to me another subtle touch by the writers.

Killaqueen!!! · 18-04-2007 09:41PM

8

Fantastic episode 9/10 from me. And unlike most, I didn't enjoy it the most because it gave lots of answers (which ones to believe is now the question!) but because it was written very well and there was some fine acting from Elizabeth Mitchell and Michael Emerson.

Just when I let my guard down, Juliet is really working for the Others! A lot of people said they knew this would happen but, in fairness, you only suspected that this would happen - same with me. It was a 50/50 chance which could have gone in either direction. The writers probably flipped a coin to decide whether Juliet would go with the Losties or the Others. Juliet could be manipulating Ben (give him a taste of his own medicine) into thinking that she is working for him but she really just wanted to leave the Others and go off with Jack! But then again, Sayid is generally right about these things so...who knows? I don't know why Juliet needs to work for Ben. She desperately wants to get off the island, Ben isn't letting her. Why would she trust him? There's no way to get off the island anyway...not that we know of anyway. The Others still have Desmonds boat but the way that Juliet was strapped in on the sub would probably make it dangerous to try and leave on that thing. (I wonder how Michael and Walt got on in their fisher boat!). Why is it such a rocky ride? Surely to do with the electromagnetic field. But whats the story with that now that the hatch has imploded?

On a side note, would the plane have crashed if desmond pushed the button? How do the Others not know much about the Swan? I don't think Ben has been there as long as he has said.

Anyway, the thing with the fertility tests. This can't be the main reason the Others are around because Juliet was only brought to the island 3 years ago. I don't see why it's important that people can't conceive on the island - most people (apart from Ben) don't seem to be over excited to stay on the island (why would you with Smokey etc).

Does anybody think that the creators changed their minds about who the Others were? In season 1 they were these evil strange people who were very quick, very strong and kidnapped, killed and lied to a group of stranded people. Why not just go up to them, welcome to the island, explain to them that the island is special ("hey, I'd watch out for the smoke monster if I were you as well!"), ask Jack to do the surgery, and tell the pregnant ones to be careful.

Ah...anytime we get answers I just make millions of questions out of it!

Very good episode though.

damnyanks · 18-04-2007 10:15PM

Yeah would make sense. They could easily tell the losties everything they need to know. They could then of said how they dont want to be disturbed, have a big fence up etc. etc.

And sure when we had your man ethan going around killing them we thought the others were super strong, crazy mutants.

ZiabR · 18-04-2007 11:27PM

8

upmeath wrote:

Eh... Dharma first to arrive on the island? What about the big foot? Surely that predates any hatch. I'm starting to think lately that the Others may be something akin to the Ancients in FFVII, if anyone's familiar with that game. This is their ancestral homestead, their little Zion, they want to inhabit this place undisturbed and peacefully forever.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the bunker system is extremely old, I'm thinking no more than perhaps 60 years. Mankind had neither the means of transporting the necessary materials and equipment from one continent to another nor constructing such installations prior to WWII. The use of geodesic domes in the structure of the Swan is in keeping with the design of U.S. and French military installations in the South Pacific in the 1950s and 1960s (e.g. Bikini Atoll, Midway, Muraroa Atoll, all the Micronesian test sites). While this design had been employed in construction since 1922, it only became popularised by Fuller in the early 1950s, I think 1952 is accurate.

Yes FFVII is one of my top 5 games of all time. Nice idea about the connection with the ancients in that. I say the hatch is extremely old because as you say, 60 years to me is a very long time. If the Others and Dharma were infact related to each other is would explain why there is so much tension and hate between the two of them.

doonothing · 19-04-2007 01:35AM

7

one thing i never understood. ben pushing the buttons but telling locke that he didn't, did he genuinely think it was all an observational experiment? well i guess not cos he pushed the buttons... but why convince locke they had no purpose?? he was risking "the world" in some cataclysmic explosion surely...
i just don't get it

damnyanks · 19-04-2007 01:43AM

Probably just to gauge locks response. When the clock finally ticks out there seemed to be a few more minutes before stuff when insane.

ZiabR · 19-04-2007 09:49AM

8

doonothing wrote:

one thing i never understood. ben pushing the buttons but telling locke that he didn't, did he genuinely think it was all an observational experiment? well i guess not cos he pushed the buttons... but why convince locke they had no purpose?? he was risking "the world" in some cataclysmic explosion surely...
i just don't get it

Doesn’t Ben like to use reverse psychology. He tell Locke to press the button and then Locke starts thinking “what if I don’t”. If Ben tells him not to press the button, Locke does. Very much like the sub incident. We see Ben talking with Locke for ages, filling his head will all sorts and then when Locke leaves to do the work, Ben does not make any effort to stop him.

[US/IRL] 3X16 - "One Of Us" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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[US/IRL] 3X16 - "One Of Us" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]