mass going on xmas and athisism.

neon_glows · 25-12-2006 12:56AM #1

I understand this subject is probably going to get very mixed reactions, im a person, an individual who believes everyone is entitled to have there own beliefs and practice them aslong as they dont interfere with others,

My father is a serious catholic, he does lots for his community church, organises fundraising and helps run a small christian charity that fundraises to take terminally ill people in my community to knock, lourdes and medjagorje, i have no problem with him doing this but since a child he has forced me to go to church, since about 12 o 13 i found i could think for myself and my views are different from those of my fathers, for 9 years i have stood my ground and refused to attend masses (except funerals/weddings) as it is my belief and my right not to practice a faith that is not mine.

My father still to this day really pushes his beliefs on me, he makes me feel bad, its a serious issue in my house and causes lots of arguments, my father does not like to listen and will not except my beliefs, (just to make it clear i believe in no god and do not worship anything).

Im expected to go to church with my family tomorrow and i dont feel i should have to, i have told my mum this and she is fine with it but i know tomorrow it will cause tension and issues and may lead to ruining xmas for my dad, i understand that part of his problem is when he goes to church tomorrow he feels people will query and look down on him becuase his whole family would not go to mass with him.

I dont want to cause problems in my house but im forced into a position where i find that either i go tomorrow i have issues regarding bowing, genoflecting, listeniong to a cermon, praying, kneeling, recieving holy communion etc.

I respect my fathers beliefs but i also feel in return he should respect mine, i have said this to him and have had many conversations but he is unable to comprehend or respect my feelings. I understand xmas is a christianity thing anyway but i dont see it that way, im happy to go along with its tradition as i see it as a good family time etc but im unwilling to worship something that i do not believe in for the sake of other people, this is very unfair.

So what advice do you guys have, iv pretty much already made up my mind im not going tomorrow but im a little worried on how this effects my father.

challengemaster · 25-12-2006 01:09AM

you're dead right not to go. you say you say since you were 12-13, then mention for the last 9 years so i'll assume you're around 22. really, at 22 you are well able to make your own decisions and are a grown up. your father seems to be acting like you are still a child. what he's doing is unfair to you, and putting you under pressure/stress etc.

if it affects him so much its his own fault for expecting you to follow his religious acts when you're not part of the same religion. you're grown up now, so make your own decisions about it.

and ofcourse, happy christmas

Wishbone Ash · 25-12-2006 01:10AM

neon_glows wrote:

refused to attend masses (except funerals/weddings) as it is my belief and my right not to practice a faith that is not mine

I am be a regular church goer and I don't force my beliefs on others but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

LegacyUser · 25-12-2006 01:15AM

Here I have similar views as yourself, I dont see the point of organised religion or even aspire to ideals of faith, today I went to mass for the first time all year. I went because it would make my father happy. If it keeps your father happy and allows for the family to share christmass together then whats the harm? You dont have to go to mass every week, you dont have to bow or pray, you dont have to take the bread. Make the effort tomorrow. Also I believe the idea of house rules applies here. If you live under his room you should respect his views.

CerebralCortex · 25-12-2006 01:17AM

I can, in a way, relate to what you are saying. I commend your bravery in standing up for what you believe in. It shows a lot of integrity to not buckle in the face of deep rooted tradition and emotional assault. Your father sounds like a man who has lost the meaning of being Christian that is to live and let live "treat others" and all that lark and is also insecure about the integrity of his belief system. In my opinion the only way to win against the norm or the man(agement) is the total ignoration of the occasion, in way show no emotion either way about Christmas it works for me but then again our situations are different possibly. Thats my two cents. Hope it helps. Sorry if I have missed the point.

Happy godlessmas:D

LegacyUser · 25-12-2006 01:17AM

I think you know what the right thing is here. At the end of the day, it's your father who has a problem, not you. If you give in, it might ease tensions in the short term, but it will never resolve the issue really. Hold to your own beliefs, and hopefully someday he'll come to understand why you have to act in this manner.

As an atheist myself, I personally feel that just attending a mass does a disservice to the faith of everyone else that's there, let alone taking part in the ceremony. There are logical exceptions for weddings and funerals, but essentially attending to worship makes a mockery of it imo.

LegacyUser · 25-12-2006 01:20AM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

A wedding is for two people celebrating a marriage. A funeral is for the family and friends of the dead. You attend for the sake of those people, not your own.

cooperguy · 25-12-2006 01:38AM

Why dont you go for the hour, it wont take that much effort and it will make the day go so much smoother. That is what I would do anyway to save arguments on christmas day.

LundiMardi · 25-12-2006 01:46AM

cooperguy wrote:

Why dont you go for the hour, it wont take that much effort and it will make the day go so much smoother. That is what I would do anyway to save arguments on christmas day.

kinda missing the point of the OP.

Sarchasm · 25-12-2006 01:48AM

I dont want to cause problems in my house but im forced into a position where i find that either i go tomorrow i have issues regarding bowing, genoflecting, listeniong to a cermon, praying, kneeling, recieving holy communion etc. ( quote from first post)

I only go to mass at funerals, weddings and christmas too. I dont geneflect , bow, i think about other things during the sermon, i dont pray,kneel or take holy communion. It doesnt effect my dad who does all these things, it does not hinder him in any way and we dont talk about it.If you dont kneel or whatever its your own business and if he still gives out to you or whatever, you'll just have to ignore him or try to make him see you went to mass for the sake of the family etc. You not repeating random words with a group of sheep and not eating a bit of wafer has nothing to do with anyone else.

CerebralCortex · 25-12-2006 01:49AM

cooperguy wrote:

Why dont you go for the hour, it wont take that much effort and it will make the day go so much smoother. That is what I would do anyway to save arguments on christmas day.

Shouldn't have to. It is disrespectful to him/her to expect him/her to have to just put up with it. Besides he/she isn't responsible for other peoples happyness

Sangre · 25-12-2006 01:50AM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I am be a regular church goer and I don't force my beliefs on others but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

Well, no. Its not the atheist that chose to have the wedding or funeral in a catholic ceremony. Would you rather he ignored his loved ones merely because they choose a catholic church to hold the proceedings.

They aren't celebtrating christ or the church by attending these, merely the marriage of life of a dearly beloved.

It would be like you not attendinga Jewish friend's bar mitzvah because it would be 'against' your beleifs. Would you expect a catholic vegetarian not to attend a funeral because they are serving meat there?

To OP - don't go, I don't. I guess you'll just have to hope your dad acts like your father and not your child.

Wishbone Ash · 25-12-2006 02:00AM

Sangre wrote:

Would you rather he ignored his loved ones merely because they choose a catholic church to hold the proceedings

By that process of logic, it could be argued that the OP should not ignore his/her family and attend Christmas Day service because his/her family chose a Catholic Church to celebrate the birthday of Jesus Christ.

Geek Nose · 25-12-2006 02:23AM

Wishbone Ash wrote:

By that process of logic, it could be argued that the OP should not ignore his/her family and attend Christmas Day service because his/her family chose a Catholic Church to celebrate the birthday of Jesus Christ.

Not the same logic at all. The whole point of going to mass tomorrow is to celebrate the birth of Jesus - which the OP doesn't believe in. Funerals & Weddings are celebrations of your loved one getting hitched, or passing away - it's not a celebration of religious beliefs, so it's a totally different scenario.
It would be ignorant not to go to a wedding or funeral because of religious beliefs, because you'd be missing the point of the celebration. But not going on X-mas day is 100% down to your beliefs - that's the very core of Christmas day!

neon_glows · 25-12-2006 03:01AM

i dont want to sit in a church with 900 other people thus showing that i conform to the idea of belief system that those people have, i would much rather not attend and not conform to something i dont agree with,

But just to note from my understanding as a christian it is that persons duty to basically enforce there beliefs on non believers, hence the crusades, and church control of different countries.

Caliden · 25-12-2006 01:18PM

You only have one family and one father. I don't go all year but I make an exception at Christmas.
I may not believe in it but I don't want to let my family down, I would suggest you do the same.

Carcharodon · 25-12-2006 01:20PM

You are correct in what you say OP and shouldn't be forced into anything but you seem to know what you believe in or what you dont believe in and are comfortable with this, so you could always just take the higher ground and go, knowing that you are doing it as gesture for your father and that he is only fooling himself thinking he can change your beliefs. Going would just prove what a joke the church is, half the people there are probably in similar situations to yourself, go, keep the peace, have a laugh at the church.

dvega · 25-12-2006 01:29PM

You are certainly entitled not to go if you choose so.

Your father has big religious beliefs,where as you have none.
So why not just go if it makes your family christmas a happy one!

BuffyBot · 25-12-2006 02:39PM

OP, guess what?

We all have to do things we don't like in life. Sometimes, in order to keep the peace, you have to suck it up and take one on the chin. Are you beliefs, or lack of them, worth straining Christmas over?

Sit there, turn the brain off and think happy thoughts for an hour. To be honest, you're both being quite selfish, but sometimes it's the bigger thing to do to make a sacrifice for someone else's sake.

maidhc · 25-12-2006 02:57PM

BuffyBot wrote:

We all have to do things we don't like in life. Sometimes, in order to keep the peace, you have to suck it up and take one on the chin. Are you beliefs, or lack of them, worth straining Christmas over?

Sit there, turn the brain off and think happy thoughts for an hour. To be honest, you're both being quite selfish, but sometimes it's the bigger thing to do to make a sacrifice for someone else's sake.

Well said.

It is an hour out of your life. Just go, they won't turn you into a zombie. Its a bit silly to be too stubborn about the thing.

JC 2K3 · 25-12-2006 03:03PM

Geez, you sound like a teenage attention whore OP.

You go, sit down, stare at the ceiling for 30-45 mins and then go home, no religion has been inflicted on you and there's no arguments.

You come from a Catholic family, therefore your family is going to celebrate Christmas in a Catholic way. Just accept it, it's tradition and it happens once a year.

Or you could refuse and cause tensions and arguments, gaining nothing but attention and a selfsh sense of elitism...

melekalikimaka · 25-12-2006 03:11PM

make your excuses, a half assed excuse is better than a no imo, your dad can't be doin that to you, it'd p1ss e off something rotten if that was me, mass seems silly to me...christmas mass is even worse.

by the by is there much 15 - 25yr olds attending christmas mass this year?

Gillie · 25-12-2006 03:15PM

I'm the same as a lot of ppl here. Only go once a year if that.
It's only an hour. What else would you be doing?

Pigman II · 25-12-2006 06:39PM

I used to be one of these "uuh **** you I'm not going" immature twats but then I realised it actually takes more effort and causes more misery to not go to xmas mass than it does to sit there quietly smiling politely.

It just takes an hour and it's a mark of respect for people you (presumably?) have some positive feelings about.

Out of interest if someone dies or someone invites you to a wedding next year are you not going to go to that either just because it's a religious ceremony in a church?

nervous_twitch · 25-12-2006 06:50PM

neon_glows wrote:

i dont want to sit in a church with 900 other people thus showing that i conform to the idea of belief system that those people have, i would much rather not attend and not conform to something i dont agree with,

QUOTE]

:rolleyes: Oh, God, grow up.. Sitting in a church feeling bone idle doesnt mean you conform to a belief. Go for the bit of quiet time - reflect. I agree with a lot of posters, you need to just suck it up and get on with it; for you, Xmas isnt about religion, so make it about your family.. keeping the peace is more admirable than trying to demonstrate some shoddy conviction you possess imo

Nevyn · 25-12-2006 07:45PM

Unless it is a rite I have been invited to I will not go into a church, I am not that much of a hypercitre to sit there and pretend.

Red Alert · 25-12-2006 07:56PM

Just to start by saying I usually go to mass every sunday. Not to say I agree with everything the institutional catholic church professes - contraception, married and/or female priests etc. At the very least it gives me time to think. Some of the gospel stories and St. Paul's letters really do have some useful advice for life in them too, whether you believe in god and/or jesus or not.

Christmas Mass (and to a lesser extent Easter Mass) is about family more so than religion, same as a wedding or funeral. I was at the night mass in Dundrum yesterday. There were people there I see every day, and some that only see Ireland once a year.

Presumably if you're an atheist anyway, an hour watching a 'play' in which do not believe wouldn't be too much to take? Your dad's not asking you to be re-baptised or born again. He just wants you to spend an hour out of the 8760 hours in the year with him - that's not really to much to bear?

Piste · 25-12-2006 07:57PM

melekalikimaka wrote:

by the by is there much 15 - 25yr olds attending christmas mass this year?

I'm 15 and I didn't go. I never go to mass unless it's a funeral/rememberance/school mass as I was not brought up Christian, for about 4/5 years I went to Christmas mass as I sang in the choir but that's about it.

Sangre · 25-12-2006 08:04PM

Would people be saying the same if he was being forced to attend a mosque? Maybe, but probably not.

The RC Church ceremony isn't just a 'play' I can just stare at (to me), it is an institution that I have a lot of problems with. I'd rather not boost their attendance numbers (which a church or wedding doesn't do).

If you don't go and its causes tension, its not because you are being selfish and immature, its because your dad is.

InFront · 25-12-2006 08:09PM

Sangre wrote:

Would people be saying the same if he was being forced to attend a mosque? Maybe, but probably not.

I'm Muslim, we go through this every year. I don't say 'go through' as in 'endure' or 'tolerate', but just accept the holiday and all the things that come along with it. For me, that means wishing people happy Christmas and observing all the natural (and perfectly nice) traditions we have here. I presume, if you come from a Catholic home, attending a church is just one of those things. Why not just accept it for peace sake.

Sangre · 25-12-2006 08:15PM

Why not renouce your religion and become a Catholic? It would make it a lot easier for all us Irish.

Basically most people have no problem with the OP having his 'beliefs' infringed on for the sake of going to mass. Even though his non-attendance has no bearing on anyone else's 'beliefs'? Its funny, fúcked up world we live in.

mass going on xmas and athisism.

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