mass going on xmas and athisism.

neon_glows

I understand this subject is probably going to get very mixed reactions, im a person, an individual who believes everyone is entitled to have there own beliefs and practice them aslong as they dont interfere with others,

My father is a serious catholic, he does lots for his community church, organises fundraising and helps run a small christian charity that fundraises to take terminally ill people in my community to knock, lourdes and medjagorje, i have no problem with him doing this but since a child he has forced me to go to church, since about 12 o 13 i found i could think for myself and my views are different from those of my fathers, for 9 years i have stood my ground and refused to attend masses (except funerals/weddings) as it is my belief and my right not to practice a faith that is not mine.

My father still to this day really pushes his beliefs on me, he makes me feel bad, its a serious issue in my house and causes lots of arguments, my father does not like to listen and will not except my beliefs, (just to make it clear i believe in no god and do not worship anything).

Im expected to go to church with my family tomorrow and i dont feel i should have to, i have told my mum this and she is fine with it but i know tomorrow it will cause tension and issues and may lead to ruining xmas for my dad, i understand that part of his problem is when he goes to church tomorrow he feels people will query and look down on him becuase his whole family would not go to mass with him.

I dont want to cause problems in my house but im forced into a position where i find that either i go tomorrow i have issues regarding bowing, genoflecting, listeniong to a cermon, praying, kneeling, recieving holy communion etc.

I respect my fathers beliefs but i also feel in return he should respect mine, i have said this to him and have had many conversations but he is unable to comprehend or respect my feelings. I understand xmas is a christianity thing anyway but i dont see it that way, im happy to go along with its tradition as i see it as a good family time etc but im unwilling to worship something that i do not believe in for the sake of other people, this is very unfair.

So what advice do you guys have, iv pretty much already made up my mind im not going tomorrow but im a little worried on how this effects my father.

challengemaster

you're dead right not to go. you say you say since you were 12-13, then mention for the last 9 years so i'll assume you're around 22. really, at 22 you are well able to make your own decisions and are a grown up. your father seems to be acting like you are still a child. what he's doing is unfair to you, and putting you under pressure/stress etc.

if it affects him so much its his own fault for expecting you to follow his religious acts when you're not part of the same religion. you're grown up now, so make your own decisions about it.

and ofcourse, happy christmas

Wishbone Ash

neon_glows wrote:

refused to attend masses (except funerals/weddings) as it is my belief and my right not to practice a faith that is not mine

I am be a regular church goer and I don't force my beliefs on others but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

LegacyUser

Here I have similar views as yourself, I dont see the point of organised religion or even aspire to ideals of faith, today I went to mass for the first time all year. I went because it would make my father happy. If it keeps your father happy and allows for the family to share christmass together then whats the harm? You dont have to go to mass every week, you dont have to bow or pray, you dont have to take the bread. Make the effort tomorrow. Also I believe the idea of house rules applies here. If you live under his room you should respect his views.

CerebralCortex

I can, in a way, relate to what you are saying. I commend your bravery in standing up for what you believe in. It shows a lot of integrity to not buckle in the face of deep rooted tradition and emotional assault. Your father sounds like a man who has lost the meaning of being Christian that is to live and let live "treat others" and all that lark and is also insecure about the integrity of his belief system. In my opinion the only way to win against the norm or the man(agement) is the total ignoration of the occasion, in way show no emotion either way about Christmas it works for me but then again our situations are different possibly. Thats my two cents. Hope it helps. Sorry if I have missed the point.

Happy godlessmas:D

LegacyUser

I think you know what the right thing is here. At the end of the day, it's your father who has a problem, not you. If you give in, it might ease tensions in the short term, but it will never resolve the issue really. Hold to your own beliefs, and hopefully someday he'll come to understand why you have to act in this manner.

As an atheist myself, I personally feel that just attending a mass does a disservice to the faith of everyone else that's there, let alone taking part in the ceremony. There are logical exceptions for weddings and funerals, but essentially attending to worship makes a mockery of it imo.

LegacyUser

Wishbone Ash wrote:

but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

A wedding is for two people celebrating a marriage. A funeral is for the family and friends of the dead. You attend for the sake of those people, not your own.

cooperguy

Why dont you go for the hour, it wont take that much effort and it will make the day go so much smoother. That is what I would do anyway to save arguments on christmas day.

LundiMardi

cooperguy wrote:

Why dont you go for the hour, it wont take that much effort and it will make the day go so much smoother. That is what I would do anyway to save arguments on christmas day.

kinda missing the point of the OP.

Sarchasm

I dont want to cause problems in my house but im forced into a position where i find that either i go tomorrow i have issues regarding bowing, genoflecting, listeniong to a cermon, praying, kneeling, recieving holy communion etc. ( quote from first post)

I only go to mass at funerals, weddings and christmas too. I dont geneflect , bow, i think about other things during the sermon, i dont pray,kneel or take holy communion. It doesnt effect my dad who does all these things, it does not hinder him in any way and we dont talk about it.If you dont kneel or whatever its your own business and if he still gives out to you or whatever, you'll just have to ignore him or try to make him see you went to mass for the sake of the family etc. You not repeating random words with a group of sheep and not eating a bit of wafer has nothing to do with anyone else.

CerebralCortex

cooperguy wrote:

Why dont you go for the hour, it wont take that much effort and it will make the day go so much smoother. That is what I would do anyway to save arguments on christmas day.

Shouldn't have to. It is disrespectful to him/her to expect him/her to have to just put up with it. Besides he/she isn't responsible for other peoples happyness

Sangre

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I am be a regular church goer and I don't force my beliefs on others but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

Well, no. Its not the atheist that chose to have the wedding or funeral in a catholic ceremony. Would you rather he ignored his loved ones merely because they choose a catholic church to hold the proceedings.

They aren't celebtrating christ or the church by attending these, merely the marriage of life of a dearly beloved.

It would be like you not attendinga Jewish friend's bar mitzvah because it would be 'against' your beleifs. Would you expect a catholic vegetarian not to attend a funeral because they are serving meat there?

To OP - don't go, I don't. I guess you'll just have to hope your dad acts like your father and not your child.

Wishbone Ash

Sangre wrote:

Would you rather he ignored his loved ones merely because they choose a catholic church to hold the proceedings

By that process of logic, it could be argued that the OP should not ignore his/her family and attend Christmas Day service because his/her family chose a Catholic Church to celebrate the birthday of Jesus Christ.

Geek Nose

Wishbone Ash wrote:

By that process of logic, it could be argued that the OP should not ignore his/her family and attend Christmas Day service because his/her family chose a Catholic Church to celebrate the birthday of Jesus Christ.

Not the same logic at all. The whole point of going to mass tomorrow is to celebrate the birth of Jesus - which the OP doesn't believe in. Funerals & Weddings are celebrations of your loved one getting hitched, or passing away - it's not a celebration of religious beliefs, so it's a totally different scenario.
It would be ignorant not to go to a wedding or funeral because of religious beliefs, because you'd be missing the point of the celebration. But not going on X-mas day is 100% down to your beliefs - that's the very core of Christmas day!

neon_glows

i dont want to sit in a church with 900 other people thus showing that i conform to the idea of belief system that those people have, i would much rather not attend and not conform to something i dont agree with,

But just to note from my understanding as a christian it is that persons duty to basically enforce there beliefs on non believers, hence the crusades, and church control of different countries.

Caliden

You only have one family and one father. I don't go all year but I make an exception at Christmas.
I may not believe in it but I don't want to let my family down, I would suggest you do the same.

Carcharodon

You are correct in what you say OP and shouldn't be forced into anything but you seem to know what you believe in or what you dont believe in and are comfortable with this, so you could always just take the higher ground and go, knowing that you are doing it as gesture for your father and that he is only fooling himself thinking he can change your beliefs. Going would just prove what a joke the church is, half the people there are probably in similar situations to yourself, go, keep the peace, have a laugh at the church.

dvega

You are certainly entitled not to go if you choose so.

Your father has big religious beliefs,where as you have none.
So why not just go if it makes your family christmas a happy one!

BuffyBot

OP, guess what?

We all have to do things we don't like in life. Sometimes, in order to keep the peace, you have to suck it up and take one on the chin. Are you beliefs, or lack of them, worth straining Christmas over?

Sit there, turn the brain off and think happy thoughts for an hour. To be honest, you're both being quite selfish, but sometimes it's the bigger thing to do to make a sacrifice for someone else's sake.

maidhc

BuffyBot wrote:

We all have to do things we don't like in life. Sometimes, in order to keep the peace, you have to suck it up and take one on the chin. Are you beliefs, or lack of them, worth straining Christmas over?

Sit there, turn the brain off and think happy thoughts for an hour. To be honest, you're both being quite selfish, but sometimes it's the bigger thing to do to make a sacrifice for someone else's sake.

Well said.

It is an hour out of your life. Just go, they won't turn you into a zombie. Its a bit silly to be too stubborn about the thing.

JC 2K3

Geez, you sound like a teenage attention whore OP.

You go, sit down, stare at the ceiling for 30-45 mins and then go home, no religion has been inflicted on you and there's no arguments.

You come from a Catholic family, therefore your family is going to celebrate Christmas in a Catholic way. Just accept it, it's tradition and it happens once a year.

Or you could refuse and cause tensions and arguments, gaining nothing but attention and a selfsh sense of elitism...

melekalikimaka

make your excuses, a half assed excuse is better than a no imo, your dad can't be doin that to you, it'd p1ss e off something rotten if that was me, mass seems silly to me...christmas mass is even worse.


by the by is there much 15 - 25yr olds attending christmas mass this year?

Gillie

I'm the same as a lot of ppl here. Only go once a year if that.
It's only an hour. What else would you be doing?

Pigman II

I used to be one of these "uuh **** you I'm not going" immature twats but then I realised it actually takes more effort and causes more misery to not go to xmas mass than it does to sit there quietly smiling politely.

It just takes an hour and it's a mark of respect for people you (presumably?) have some positive feelings about.

Out of interest if someone dies or someone invites you to a wedding next year are you not going to go to that either just because it's a religious ceremony in a church?

nervous_twitch

neon_glows wrote:

i dont want to sit in a church with 900 other people thus showing that i conform to the idea of belief system that those people have, i would much rather not attend and not conform to something i dont agree with,

QUOTE]

:rolleyes: Oh, God, grow up.. Sitting in a church feeling bone idle doesnt mean you conform to a belief. Go for the bit of quiet time - reflect. I agree with a lot of posters, you need to just suck it up and get on with it; for you, Xmas isnt about religion, so make it about your family.. keeping the peace is more admirable than trying to demonstrate some shoddy conviction you possess imo

Nevyn

Unless it is a rite I have been invited to I will not go into a church, I am not that much of a hypercitre to sit there and pretend.

Red Alert

Just to start by saying I usually go to mass every sunday. Not to say I agree with everything the institutional catholic church professes - contraception, married and/or female priests etc. At the very least it gives me time to think. Some of the gospel stories and St. Paul's letters really do have some useful advice for life in them too, whether you believe in god and/or jesus or not.

Christmas Mass (and to a lesser extent Easter Mass) is about family more so than religion, same as a wedding or funeral. I was at the night mass in Dundrum yesterday. There were people there I see every day, and some that only see Ireland once a year.

Presumably if you're an atheist anyway, an hour watching a 'play' in which do not believe wouldn't be too much to take? Your dad's not asking you to be re-baptised or born again. He just wants you to spend an hour out of the 8760 hours in the year with him - that's not really to much to bear?

Piste

melekalikimaka wrote:

by the by is there much 15 - 25yr olds attending christmas mass this year?

I'm 15 and I didn't go. I never go to mass unless it's a funeral/rememberance/school mass as I was not brought up Christian, for about 4/5 years I went to Christmas mass as I sang in the choir but that's about it.

Sangre

Would people be saying the same if he was being forced to attend a mosque? Maybe, but probably not.

The RC Church ceremony isn't just a 'play' I can just stare at (to me), it is an institution that I have a lot of problems with. I'd rather not boost their attendance numbers (which a church or wedding doesn't do).

If you don't go and its causes tension, its not because you are being selfish and immature, its because your dad is.

InFront

Sangre wrote:

Would people be saying the same if he was being forced to attend a mosque? Maybe, but probably not.

I'm Muslim, we go through this every year. I don't say 'go through' as in 'endure' or 'tolerate', but just accept the holiday and all the things that come along with it. For me, that means wishing people happy Christmas and observing all the natural (and perfectly nice) traditions we have here. I presume, if you come from a Catholic home, attending a church is just one of those things. Why not just accept it for peace sake.

Sangre

Why not renouce your religion and become a Catholic? It would make it a lot easier for all us Irish.

Basically most people have no problem with the OP having his 'beliefs' infringed on for the sake of going to mass. Even though his non-attendance has no bearing on anyone else's 'beliefs'? Its funny, fúcked up world we live in.

InFront

Why not renouce your religion and become a Catholic? It would make it a lot easier for all us Irish.

Ha (good point - sort of) but it's not actually about beliefs, it's just about politeness. Who cares if he sits there and counts sheep? Will there be any real gain to be had by staying at home and watching t.v.? Part of having a good relationship with your family means just relenting on certain issues and appeasing them. It's not very democratic, and maybe it isn't faur, but that's life. Get on with it.

ferdi

OP - do you accept gifts and stuff your face at christmas? i'll bet you do, as do most other non practicing christians/atheists in ireland (myself included).

i would say, if asked, most of the non-christians who get into the festive spirit at christmas would say they do it because its a 'family' time of year, not in order to mark the birth of christ.

if you do indulge in all the christmas trimmings, why not indulge in one more, if only to make your dad happy?

Are you such a bloody spoiled little hypocrite that you wont give up one hour of your life for the sake of your family while you gluttonise and rip the wrapping from your presents?

JC 2K3

Thaedydal wrote:

Unless it is a rite I have been invited to I will not go into a church, I am not that much of a hypercitre to sit there and pretend.

The OP's essentially been invited by his family to come and share a family tradition....

Nevyn

One of his parents tradiations but not one of his.

Sangre

InFront wrote:

Ha (good point - sort of) but it's not actually about beliefs, it's just about politeness. Who cares if he sits there and counts sheep?

I don't know about the OP but I would completely care. I would be uncomfortable and feel like a hypocrite. I would also be at something celebrating something that not only I do not believe but wholly reject.

Seriously, would you insist a Jew eats your Xmas ham? What is the difference? This thread sadly reflects the views on atheism in this country, another reason not to go. If people don't start practising what they believe then this type of 'don't be a brat' behaviour will continue.

Red Alert

Nobody's asking him to wholeheartedly believe. He needn't say any professions of faith or the like.

Sangre

It wouldn't matter to you if I told you it really made me uncomfortable being there? Would still call me immature for not going? A lack of belief in God doesn't mean a lack of beliefs.

(i've kinda taken for the OP it seems )

InFront

To be honest, if for some reason, my friends invited me to a church and were offended that I wouldn't go, I'd just go. I'm comfortable with my own beliefs, (which actually dont even come into this). Christmas is a big deal for the Christians, maybe like a wedding so -- why can you enter a chruch for weddings and not something else? I dont get it, maybe Im missing something. This isn't about freedoms or being smothered by religion man, it's about doing something with your family for to keep the peace.

I know, maybe present them with the UN charter for human rights, or haul in the Irish Human Rights Commission on their ass.

As for the pork argument, if someone wanted me to eat pork, or a jew to eat pork, or something like that, that is different, because that is actually blocking someones beliefs. Sitting in a church isnt as far as i can tell unless they want you to do more. You've done it before, in fairness, of your own accord. Take headphones with you if you can maybe...

JC 2K3

Sangre wrote:

I don't know about the OP but I would completely care. I would be uncomfortable and feel like a hypocrite. I would also be at something celebrating something that not only I do not believe but wholly reject.

Seriously, would you insist a Jew eats your Xmas ham? What is the difference? This thread sadly reflects the views on atheism in this country, another reason not to go. If people don't start practising what they believe then this type of 'don't be a brat' behaviour will continue.

FFS, this is ONE mass for the sake of pleasing a conservative father. 45 minutes of sitting still in a church. Uncomfortable? Feeling like a hypocrite? Tbh when I go to my annual Xmas mass all I'm thinking is "LOL" in my head.

Atheists won't go to mass with their future families because they don't believe in it, the "don't be a brat" behavior won't apply to going to Xmas mass in their future families anyway. I don't get your point.

philologos

As a Christian I would regard the right to each to believe in their own faith. I also don't think that it is very Christian of your father to force you to do something against your own free will. Believe in what you believe, and if he continues to reject your religious beliefs, I'd recommend that you get someone from outside, maybe a counsellor to come in and discuss this with them and with you. Just a suggestion, I can't really relate though since I have taken to Christianity, my parents have never explicitly forced me to go to church though.

Sangre

InFront wrote:

To be honest, if for some reason, my friends invited me to a church and were offended that I wouldn't go, I'd just go. I'm comfortable with my own beliefs, (which actually dont even come into this). Christmas is a big deal for the Christians, maybe like a wedding so -- why can you enter a chruch for weddings and not something else? I dont get it, maybe Im missing something. This isn't about freedoms or being smothered by religion man, it's about doing something with your family for to keep the peace.

I know, maybe present them with the UN charter for human rights, or haul in the Irish Human Rights Commission on their ass.

As for the pork argument, if someone wanted me to eat pork, or a jew to eat pork, or something like that, that is different, because that is actually blocking someones beliefs. Sitting in a church isnt as far as i can tell unless they want you to do more. You've done it before, in fairness, of your own accord. Take headphones with you if you can maybe...

As I mentioned (albeit briefly) my main problem wouldn't be because I don't believe in it. Its because I wholly reject the RC Church. This isn't not only just a non-belief, its an active stance against the Church and its presence in Ireland.

While it may seem hypocritical if the same pressure was put on me to go to a Mosque I wouldn't have as big a problem. This is because the Muslim Church has no influence on our country at the moment.

Red Alert

Do you have the same 'stance' against other religions Sangre? TBH the institutional catholic church has little actual power in the country nowadays (and that is the way it should be!).

No it is unchristian (and in fact very disrespectful) to force anyone else to do or profess anything. However the OP's question wasn't just asked in the context of his father and himself. It was asked in the context of their relationship with each other and the rest of the family around christmas.

Sangre

Red Alert wrote:

Do you have the same 'stance' against other religions Sangre? TBH the institutional catholic church has little actual power in the country nowadays (and that is the way it should be!).

My 'stance' is against any organised religion. I think they're corrupt, self-centric and only promote conflict. Since the RC Church is the one with sway in Ireland, that is the one I've most issue with.
Anyway, its wholly naive to think the Church and Christianity don't have a huge influence in Ireland still. Whether from direct influence from the Church officials or from the beliefs of the nation. You only have to look at the effect of the Bishop's speech on the age of consent to see the impact the Church still has.

I'm of the belief any developed society needs to be wholly secular, in all three organs of the state. As my studies have revealed, the law in Ireland is wholly influenced and referenced to our Church. DeValera actually sought pontif approval of our current Constitution.

(this is leaving aside everything terrible the Church has done)

Basically, the 'Church' (not religion) contributes nothing to society that couldn't be gained through other less corrupting and alienating means.

o1s1n

ferdi wrote:

Are you such a bloody spoiled little hypocrite that you wont give up one hour of your life for the sake of your family while you gluttonise and rip the wrapping from your presents?

I think it's an outrage that people are taking this line of reasoning with him. It doesnt matter how often/long the mass is. If you disagree with it you are being a hypocrite for attending.

He should make his parents happy by attending? Why dont they make HIM happy by not having a problem with him not attending?

Doing things you seriously have a problem with to make people happy is not a healthy way of living.

If you dont deal with it now, you'll face this problem every year as your dad will just know that in the end, you'll give in. Just put the foot down, say no. It's their problem, not yours.

Beau x1

Well, my familys all very religious, I'm the only one who isn't religious in the family. Alot of the time I don't go to mass, but I go every now and then just to keep them happy, just like I went on Christmas day today.

It's just something you do as a family, I guess. However, if they expect you to pray and take communion etc...that is wrong. Then they just aren't showing any respect to you at all.

You can't change the fact your father may be upset about your choice and your beliefs, but he shouldn't cause arguments because of it.

maidhc

o1s1n wrote:

I think it's an outrage that people are taking this line of reasoning with him. It doesnt matter how often/long the mass is. If you disagree with it you are being a hypocrite for attending.

I disagree with lots of things, including going to Mass. But I went with the family, because it was christmas, and they appreciated it. I for one am not going to make a fight about something so bloody trivial. I also am studying for tax exams, even though I disapprove of both exams and tax. I must be a right hypocrite.

o1s1n wrote:

He should make his parents happy by attending? Why dont they make HIM happy by not having a problem with him not attending?

Show a bit of respect.

Sangre wrote:

I'm of the belief any developed society needs to be wholly secular, in all three organs of the state. As my studies have revealed, the law in Ireland is wholly influenced and referenced to our Church. DeValera actually sought pontif approval of our current Constitution.

Bull. Bits of our law is influenced by church teaching, but very little, and for the most part the influences are positive, and have given people tangible rights.

But,
Listen,

Going to mass at christmas isn't condoning the Spanish inquisition. It is just being polite, sociable and not a pain in the posterior!

Sangre

maidhc wrote:

Bull. Bits of our law is influenced by church teaching, but very little, and for the most part the influences are positive, and have given people tangible rights.
!

Well, I have my degree in law and I'm currently doing a masters in it. I completely disagree with you.

The attitude on this thread is exactly why I would take my position.

Beau x1

maidhc wrote:

Going to mass at christmas isn't condoning the Spanish inquisition. It is just being polite, sociable and not a pain in the posterior!

Agreed.

Sometimes we have to do things to please other people; it's only one out of 365 days a year.

maidhc

Sangre wrote:

Well, I have my degree in law and I'm currently doing a masters in it.

You have a fair bit to go yet

Notwithstanding your religion, I would be of the opinion that a "christian" ethos is not the worst one for a democracy to be founded on. It isn't fair on DeValera either to say he acceded to the Churches every request. Also, in the political climate of 1937 (Nazism, Facism) it was rather prudent to give control of certain matters to the church. This is not the right forum to discuss this, but i'd be happy to tease out matters in legal discussion!

JC 2K3

o1s1n wrote:

If you dont deal with it now, you'll face this problem every year as your dad will just know that in the end, you'll give in.

OH GOD!!!

ONCE A YEAR FOR 45 MINS!!!!

o1s1n wrote:

Doing things you seriously have a problem with to make people happy is not a healthy way of living.

Yeah, I'm sure sitting in a church once a year for 45 mins will really have a detremental effect on the OP's health :rolleyes:

Being a selfish cúnt who won't sacrifice anything, especially something as trivial as this, for the sake of anyone else is also unhealthy.