mass going on xmas and athisism.

InFront

Why not renouce your religion and become a Catholic? It would make it a lot easier for all us Irish.

Ha (good point - sort of) but it's not actually about beliefs, it's just about politeness. Who cares if he sits there and counts sheep? Will there be any real gain to be had by staying at home and watching t.v.? Part of having a good relationship with your family means just relenting on certain issues and appeasing them. It's not very democratic, and maybe it isn't faur, but that's life. Get on with it.

ferdi

OP - do you accept gifts and stuff your face at christmas? i'll bet you do, as do most other non practicing christians/atheists in ireland (myself included).

i would say, if asked, most of the non-christians who get into the festive spirit at christmas would say they do it because its a 'family' time of year, not in order to mark the birth of christ.

if you do indulge in all the christmas trimmings, why not indulge in one more, if only to make your dad happy?

Are you such a bloody spoiled little hypocrite that you wont give up one hour of your life for the sake of your family while you gluttonise and rip the wrapping from your presents?

JC 2K3

Thaedydal wrote:

Unless it is a rite I have been invited to I will not go into a church, I am not that much of a hypercitre to sit there and pretend.

The OP's essentially been invited by his family to come and share a family tradition....

Nevyn

One of his parents tradiations but not one of his.

Sangre

InFront wrote:

Ha (good point - sort of) but it's not actually about beliefs, it's just about politeness. Who cares if he sits there and counts sheep?

I don't know about the OP but I would completely care. I would be uncomfortable and feel like a hypocrite. I would also be at something celebrating something that not only I do not believe but wholly reject.

Seriously, would you insist a Jew eats your Xmas ham? What is the difference? This thread sadly reflects the views on atheism in this country, another reason not to go. If people don't start practising what they believe then this type of 'don't be a brat' behaviour will continue.

Red Alert

Nobody's asking him to wholeheartedly believe. He needn't say any professions of faith or the like.

Sangre

It wouldn't matter to you if I told you it really made me uncomfortable being there? Would still call me immature for not going? A lack of belief in God doesn't mean a lack of beliefs.

(i've kinda taken for the OP it seems )

InFront

To be honest, if for some reason, my friends invited me to a church and were offended that I wouldn't go, I'd just go. I'm comfortable with my own beliefs, (which actually dont even come into this). Christmas is a big deal for the Christians, maybe like a wedding so -- why can you enter a chruch for weddings and not something else? I dont get it, maybe Im missing something. This isn't about freedoms or being smothered by religion man, it's about doing something with your family for to keep the peace.

I know, maybe present them with the UN charter for human rights, or haul in the Irish Human Rights Commission on their ass.

As for the pork argument, if someone wanted me to eat pork, or a jew to eat pork, or something like that, that is different, because that is actually blocking someones beliefs. Sitting in a church isnt as far as i can tell unless they want you to do more. You've done it before, in fairness, of your own accord. Take headphones with you if you can maybe...

JC 2K3

Sangre wrote:

I don't know about the OP but I would completely care. I would be uncomfortable and feel like a hypocrite. I would also be at something celebrating something that not only I do not believe but wholly reject.

Seriously, would you insist a Jew eats your Xmas ham? What is the difference? This thread sadly reflects the views on atheism in this country, another reason not to go. If people don't start practising what they believe then this type of 'don't be a brat' behaviour will continue.

FFS, this is ONE mass for the sake of pleasing a conservative father. 45 minutes of sitting still in a church. Uncomfortable? Feeling like a hypocrite? Tbh when I go to my annual Xmas mass all I'm thinking is "LOL" in my head.

Atheists won't go to mass with their future families because they don't believe in it, the "don't be a brat" behavior won't apply to going to Xmas mass in their future families anyway. I don't get your point.

philologos

As a Christian I would regard the right to each to believe in their own faith. I also don't think that it is very Christian of your father to force you to do something against your own free will. Believe in what you believe, and if he continues to reject your religious beliefs, I'd recommend that you get someone from outside, maybe a counsellor to come in and discuss this with them and with you. Just a suggestion, I can't really relate though since I have taken to Christianity, my parents have never explicitly forced me to go to church though.

Sangre

InFront wrote:

To be honest, if for some reason, my friends invited me to a church and were offended that I wouldn't go, I'd just go. I'm comfortable with my own beliefs, (which actually dont even come into this). Christmas is a big deal for the Christians, maybe like a wedding so -- why can you enter a chruch for weddings and not something else? I dont get it, maybe Im missing something. This isn't about freedoms or being smothered by religion man, it's about doing something with your family for to keep the peace.

I know, maybe present them with the UN charter for human rights, or haul in the Irish Human Rights Commission on their ass.

As for the pork argument, if someone wanted me to eat pork, or a jew to eat pork, or something like that, that is different, because that is actually blocking someones beliefs. Sitting in a church isnt as far as i can tell unless they want you to do more. You've done it before, in fairness, of your own accord. Take headphones with you if you can maybe...

As I mentioned (albeit briefly) my main problem wouldn't be because I don't believe in it. Its because I wholly reject the RC Church. This isn't not only just a non-belief, its an active stance against the Church and its presence in Ireland.

While it may seem hypocritical if the same pressure was put on me to go to a Mosque I wouldn't have as big a problem. This is because the Muslim Church has no influence on our country at the moment.

Red Alert

Do you have the same 'stance' against other religions Sangre? TBH the institutional catholic church has little actual power in the country nowadays (and that is the way it should be!).

No it is unchristian (and in fact very disrespectful) to force anyone else to do or profess anything. However the OP's question wasn't just asked in the context of his father and himself. It was asked in the context of their relationship with each other and the rest of the family around christmas.

Sangre

Red Alert wrote:

Do you have the same 'stance' against other religions Sangre? TBH the institutional catholic church has little actual power in the country nowadays (and that is the way it should be!).

My 'stance' is against any organised religion. I think they're corrupt, self-centric and only promote conflict. Since the RC Church is the one with sway in Ireland, that is the one I've most issue with.
Anyway, its wholly naive to think the Church and Christianity don't have a huge influence in Ireland still. Whether from direct influence from the Church officials or from the beliefs of the nation. You only have to look at the effect of the Bishop's speech on the age of consent to see the impact the Church still has.

I'm of the belief any developed society needs to be wholly secular, in all three organs of the state. As my studies have revealed, the law in Ireland is wholly influenced and referenced to our Church. DeValera actually sought pontif approval of our current Constitution.

(this is leaving aside everything terrible the Church has done)

Basically, the 'Church' (not religion) contributes nothing to society that couldn't be gained through other less corrupting and alienating means.

o1s1n

ferdi wrote:

Are you such a bloody spoiled little hypocrite that you wont give up one hour of your life for the sake of your family while you gluttonise and rip the wrapping from your presents?

I think it's an outrage that people are taking this line of reasoning with him. It doesnt matter how often/long the mass is. If you disagree with it you are being a hypocrite for attending.

He should make his parents happy by attending? Why dont they make HIM happy by not having a problem with him not attending?

Doing things you seriously have a problem with to make people happy is not a healthy way of living.

If you dont deal with it now, you'll face this problem every year as your dad will just know that in the end, you'll give in. Just put the foot down, say no. It's their problem, not yours.

Beau x1

Well, my familys all very religious, I'm the only one who isn't religious in the family. Alot of the time I don't go to mass, but I go every now and then just to keep them happy, just like I went on Christmas day today.

It's just something you do as a family, I guess. However, if they expect you to pray and take communion etc...that is wrong. Then they just aren't showing any respect to you at all.

You can't change the fact your father may be upset about your choice and your beliefs, but he shouldn't cause arguments because of it.

maidhc

o1s1n wrote:

I think it's an outrage that people are taking this line of reasoning with him. It doesnt matter how often/long the mass is. If you disagree with it you are being a hypocrite for attending.

I disagree with lots of things, including going to Mass. But I went with the family, because it was christmas, and they appreciated it. I for one am not going to make a fight about something so bloody trivial. I also am studying for tax exams, even though I disapprove of both exams and tax. I must be a right hypocrite.

o1s1n wrote:

He should make his parents happy by attending? Why dont they make HIM happy by not having a problem with him not attending?

Show a bit of respect.

Sangre wrote:

I'm of the belief any developed society needs to be wholly secular, in all three organs of the state. As my studies have revealed, the law in Ireland is wholly influenced and referenced to our Church. DeValera actually sought pontif approval of our current Constitution.

Bull. Bits of our law is influenced by church teaching, but very little, and for the most part the influences are positive, and have given people tangible rights.

But,
Listen,

Going to mass at christmas isn't condoning the Spanish inquisition. It is just being polite, sociable and not a pain in the posterior!

Sangre

maidhc wrote:

Bull. Bits of our law is influenced by church teaching, but very little, and for the most part the influences are positive, and have given people tangible rights.
!

Well, I have my degree in law and I'm currently doing a masters in it. I completely disagree with you.

The attitude on this thread is exactly why I would take my position.

Beau x1

maidhc wrote:

Going to mass at christmas isn't condoning the Spanish inquisition. It is just being polite, sociable and not a pain in the posterior!

Agreed.

Sometimes we have to do things to please other people; it's only one out of 365 days a year.

maidhc

Sangre wrote:

Well, I have my degree in law and I'm currently doing a masters in it.

You have a fair bit to go yet

Notwithstanding your religion, I would be of the opinion that a "christian" ethos is not the worst one for a democracy to be founded on. It isn't fair on DeValera either to say he acceded to the Churches every request. Also, in the political climate of 1937 (Nazism, Facism) it was rather prudent to give control of certain matters to the church. This is not the right forum to discuss this, but i'd be happy to tease out matters in legal discussion!

JC 2K3

o1s1n wrote:

If you dont deal with it now, you'll face this problem every year as your dad will just know that in the end, you'll give in.

OH GOD!!!

ONCE A YEAR FOR 45 MINS!!!!

o1s1n wrote:

Doing things you seriously have a problem with to make people happy is not a healthy way of living.

Yeah, I'm sure sitting in a church once a year for 45 mins will really have a detremental effect on the OP's health :rolleyes:

Being a selfish cúnt who won't sacrifice anything, especially something as trivial as this, for the sake of anyone else is also unhealthy.

o1s1n

maidhc wrote:

Show a bit of respect.

Respect works both ways you know. I respect everyones right to their own belief.

It may be trivial to you. and i respect your decision. But it's not trivial to me. and i dont think it's trivial to the OP. Opinions you too should respect. So should his father.

o1s1n

maidhc and JC 2K3, you're both totally missing the point.

It doesnt matter how long its for. 45 minutes or 45 days. The OP has a problem with attending. As would I. That should be respected. It's not. It's being thrown in his face and he's being called selfish for having a belief.

Some of us have firm convictions about what we believe.

Maybe you'll throw them aside to make someone happy. Good for you. Not everyone is like that.

Blisterman

Jesus Christ OP, grow up and stop acting like such a dick. Everyone has to do things they don't want to do. Do you think if you sit in mass and make your father happy, that the catholic church will brainwash you or something?

maidhc

o1s1n wrote:

Some of us have firm convictions about what we believe.

Everyone has firm convictions, but it would be a pretty quare world if nobody would compromise one inch on them. Indeed being a fundamentalist atheist is just as intolerant as being a fundamentalist christian/muslim/jew.

o1s1n

No, if he sits in mass hes compromising his belief. Does no one else see this?!!?!?!?!?!

argh. its like talking to a bloody wall.

o1s1n

there is a difference between compromising your belief and being open to new ideas.

Catari Jaguar

They father will be happy knowing his son is bored and faking interest and hating every second FORCED to be there??? Cop the fcuk on. His Dad sounds so narrow minded, my uncle makes his family kneel n say literally 20 mindless prayers same order every night and force them to go to church, any of the friends they had over as kids had to do it too. INSANE! Needless to say none of his now grown kids go to mass now.

I suppose if this was a convert to say Islam, you wouldn't be saying the stuff you are. Just cos he's athiest doesn't mean he has any less belief or right to it than any one else.

I can't remember who made that "house rule" comment but it's completely fascist and idiotic, if the Dad takes heroin should his son too??

How many of you posters went to mass out of curiosity??

maidhc

o1s1n wrote:

No, if he sits in mass hes compromising his belief. Does no one else see this?!!?!?!?!?!

Nope. I often sit in mass thinking about how I am going to get the clutch out of a JCB! I did it today actually!

Seriously though, this sounds like a rule 42 debate.

maidhc

Lil Kitten wrote:

They father will be happy knowing his son is bored and faking interest and hating every second FORCED to be there???

Only 2700 seconds.

o1s1n

maidhc wrote:

Nope. I often sit in mass thinking about how I am going to get the clutch out of a JCB! I did it today actually!

You obviously don't have a problem with sitting in church then. Therefore it doesnt compromise your belief in any way.

For me on the other hand, i have a problem with the ritualistic nature of it. As was mentioned, the genuflecting, bowing to idolic images of the cross, standing, sitting, mumbling. All which you take part of at a mass. I dont wish to take part in this kind of behavior. Therefore I have a problem with attending. And wont.

What is wrong with that?