mass going on xmas and athisism.

iguana

I have a question for those who are calling the OP selfish. I have spent the past 4 Christmases with my husband's family. I spend it with them because I'm from Limerick and my husband is from Dublin, so we can either be with his family or mine but not both. And my family are much more relaxed about Christmas and are of the attitude that if we visit over the Christmas period they don't mind that I'm not there on the day itself. Whereas the day means more to my husband's mum.

My family aren't religious so apart from when I was a child mass has not been part of my family Christmas. My husband's family however are. The first three years we were together we lived in Dublin and side-stepped the mass issue by staying in our home in the morning and visiting them for dinner. But last year as we had moved to London we were staying with them for a few days before going to my family for a few days.

Is it selfish of me to not go to mass? I might be a guest in their house, but tbh I would rather spend Christmas with my parents and brothers. I am staying with them to make them and my husband happy, so is it unfair of me to say I will give them Christmas but I'm not going to mass?

Catari Jaguar

My gran is also fekn Catholicism mad, annoys the bejesus out of me. Wtf is Mass anyways? Like a weird cult, all that kneeling, standing, chanting mindless stuff. I can believe in God/ Jesus/ Christmas w/o doing that! Thank fcuk it's not in Latin anymore!

Anyways, she still forces my one of my uncles to go to Mass. He's in a mental institution. What use is mass to him? The man is nearly 60, she's in forcing nurses to bring him to mass and fretting if he doesnt go. She also told my cousin to quit her job cos she misses mass on sunday.

Such utter rubbish. Makes me laugh.

Also, whats the point in anyone going to mass unless they enjoy it? Who are you kidding but yourselves? Going and daydreaming and wishing you were elsewhere is disrespectful to God.

All these people who sin all week and go to mass on Sunday and do the routine and go back to sinning. Whats the point? Ya hypocrites!

o1s1n

maidhc wrote:

Only 2700 seconds.

...

its what goes on in that 2700 seconds.

okay. if it were 2700 seconds of sadistic blood letting of small children would you go?
of course not. you would object to that 2700 seconds being in your life.
Would you go it it *really* meant something to your father?
again, of course not.

Same with my feeling, and the OPs (i think) about what goes on at a mass.

(obviously im not comparing the going on at a mass to blood letting of small children, just an illustration!)

JC 2K3

It's trivial because it's nothing more than sitting in a room with a bunch of people you perceive to be deluded for 45 mins, take it as a surreal experience. I can't see why anyone would take such a strong stand against it. If the OP's father is making him act respectful in church, geneflecting, bowing, kneeling, receiving communion etc. then there'd be an issue.

I'm a consequentialist I guess. By my reasoning a strongly Catholic father is more likely to be genuinely upset about his son not attending at least Xmas mass than an Atheist being forced to attend, who will be a little píssed off about the affair.

And for the record I respect no one's beliefs or opinions but my own, I respect other peoples' right to have those beliefs and opinions but nothing more. Perhaps the reason I don't feel like a hypocrite at Xmas mass is because I have no respect for the ceremony as being anything remotely meaningful.

I've never seen the point, however, in kicking up a fuss and refusing to attend Xmas mass, same as I never felt the need to let my family know I wasn't a Christian in a "look at me, I'm an atheist!!!!" fashion. They got the message through the not attending church etc.

Catari Jaguar

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I am be a regular church goer and I don't force my beliefs on others but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

No, as at a wedding you are celebrating two peoples love and relationship. Not God

At a funeral you are respecting a deceased person and celebrating their life. Not God.

Either events could take place outside a church and be the same gist.

Geddit??

maidhc

JC 2K3 wrote:

It's trivial because it's nothing more than sitting in a room with a bunch of people you perceive to be deluded for 45 mins, take it as a surreal experience. I can't see why anyone would take such a strong stand against it. If the OP's father is making him act respectful in church, geneflecting, bowing, kneeling, receiving communion etc. then there'd be an issue.

I'm a consequentialist I guess. By my reasoning a strongly Catholic father is more likely to be genuinely upset about his son not attending at least Xmas mass than an Atheist being forced to attend, who will be a little píssed off about the affair.

And for the record I respect no one's beliefs or opinions but my own, I respect other peoples' right to have those beliefs and opinions but nothing more. Perhaps the reason I don't feel like a hypocrite at Xmas mass is because I have no respect for the ceremony as being anything remotely meaningful.

I've never seen the point, however, in kicking up a fuss and refusing to attend Xmas mass, same as I never felt the need to let my family know I wasn't a Christian in a "look at me, I'm an atheist!!!!" fashion. They got the message through the not attending church etc.

Here, here

(incidentally last year my mother was a bit upset that I didn't get communion, I did this year. She was happy, but I still prefer subway. )

o1s1n

Well see, that's fine for you. It's not for me. I want to distance myself from the church in every way possible. That includes Christmas mass. I dont think I've ever been to one in my life. I'm not doing it to make some grand point. I just dont want any part of it. Never have.

I dont run around claiming to be an atheist either. I find fundamental atheism just as bad as fundamental Christianity as there are just as many holes in it.

Putting all your faith in something that isnt 100% proven is ridiculous.

Anyway, getting away slightly from the OP's query.

Yes OP, is it alright for you to object to going to mass. It is not trivial to you, therefore it is not trivial. You are not selfish for wanting to uphold your belief. even if it is just "45minutes".

So dont listen to the rest of these Church sympathizers

InFront

As my studies have revealed, the law in Ireland is wholly influenced and referenced to our Church. DeValera actually sought pontif approval of our current Constitution.

Although the part about DeValera getting papal approval for the constitution, as recently revealed through the release of government documents is true, I'm afriad I'd have to agree with Maidhc. The constitution is hardly "wholly influenced" by the catholic church now is it. How can anyone prove such a claim? Nobody would deny their influence, but suggesting that the catholic church was the influence behind the whole thing sounds utterly bizarre.
Anyway I'm no apologist for Catholicism obviously, and I know that is a bit off topic...

JC 2K3

Oh who cares, Xmas is over.

We'll continue this debate same time, same place next year eh, o1s1n?

o1s1n

heh, I'll take you up on that challenge!

Okay, Christmas is over...what holiday can i rant about next. OOh, easter will be here soon. Plenty to b1tch about there

neon_glows

well all went well, told my dad the night before i was ill, went to bed intending not to wake unless woken and rolled outa the bed just as the folks came in from mass. A funny twist is that niether of my brothers or sisters attended either.

Im never outspoken in my beliefs, i never mocked others beliefs and i will even listen to some one tell me what they believe in as long as they dont go on and on and on about it, however being forced to conform to anyone elses beliefs for any reason is clearly disturbing.

I feel that everything the catholic church has ever stood for in wrong and on top of that i do not believe in what they preach, i would yes have no problem sitting in a catholic church on mxas day listening to a cermon that i have no interest in for 45 minutes and count sheep however this isnt the problem, the problem i would have is being forced into attending this ritual and being forced into participating.

Im considering setting up another post about this whole religion lark as i have some stuff i would like to query but i think this debate has come to some interesting results and the main result of it i think is that a certain amount of the population of boards just similiar to my father do not have respect for the beliefs of other people and that they believe that just becuase they attend rituals to worship god/gods that all believers/non believers should also attend with the option of participating being there.

But i ask you, isnt attending participating?????????

o1s1n

neon_glows wrote:

But i ask you, isnt attending participating?????????

What I've been trying to say. (why couldnt i have just put it so simply?)

Its very hard to sit in a church and not participate while everyone else goes about their standing up, mumbling, sitting down, mumbling, kneeling mumbling etc without feeling extremely uncomfortable.

How many of you here who say "ah its only 45 minutes" go along, not believing, yet partake in all these ritualistic actions? genuflecting? Sorry but the thought of having to do that makes me feel ill.

Congrats on getting out of going anyway. Do you reckon he knew the "ill" thing was an excuse?

Ickle Magoo

Glad you didn't have to be a hypocrite, OP.

Imagine what kind of world we'd live in if no twenty-something had the balls to put their foot down & fight for their beliefs & convictions rather than meekly doing whatever their parents wanted them to do "for the sake of an easy life"?! Scary stuff.

maidhc

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Imagine what kind of world we'd live in if no twenty-something had the balls to put their foot down & fight for their beliefs & convictions rather than meekly doing whatever their parents wanted them to do "for the sake of an easy life"?! Scary stuff.

At twenty something I am glad to say I am able fight for my beliefs and convictions with people other than my parents...

... they are reasonable people who appreciate small gestures, if I go to mass it is for them I am going, no more, no less. They ask very very little of me, and have always given a lot.

philologos

Sangre wrote:

My 'stance' is against any organised religion. I think they're corrupt, self-centric and only promote conflict. Since the RC Church is the one with sway in Ireland, that is the one I've most issue with.
Anyway, its wholly naive to think the Church and Christianity don't have a huge influence in Ireland still.

Basically, the 'Church' (not religion) contributes nothing to society that couldn't be gained through other less corrupting and alienating means.

I'd like to hear some of your reasons for despising any form of organised religion. I wouldn't know much about the RC Church, as I'm a member of the Church of Ireland, but I'd like to hear some of your reasons for saying they are all corrupt, self-centric and promote conflict. Also its important to note that one can be a Christian without even going to Church, remember God is everywhere to Christians.

But to answer the OP, religious tolerance is an important issue today. I personally think that there needs to be more done to help people accept that other people have other beliefs. I see religion and spirituality as a very personal thing. I may have accepted Christianity some others don't. I realize that but it's nothing to argue about, it's actually a positive thing to learn more about the different religions and different theological beliefs or non beliefs as in this case. People need to realize that Atheism is nothing new and has been around since the Age of Enlightenment or before then even.

Sangre

At the risk of going further off the point. Maidhc and InFront, the influence of the the Christian Church on the legal scene is total or complete. Its just an influence that shouldn't exist in the first place imo, as I said all government should be secular and any references I've come across irk me.
Everytime I read the preamble, the Norris case or the dreaded O'Hanlon thesis I die a little inside, which is pretty bad because their is no heaven. Although granted the thesis was rejected in the X case (which I found as a case was a huge step forward), I think the whole thing needs to be started from scratch (mainly because I think we've a bad Constitution.)

LegacyUser

neon_glows wrote:

I feel that everything the catholic church has ever stood for in wrong and on top of that i do not believe in what they preach

So preaching love, tolerence, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, joy (all what Christmas is about!) you believe is wrong? *shock*

May God have mercy on us all!
(Let's hope you're never in charge!!)

philologos

o1s1n wrote:

Putting all your faith in something that isnt 100% proven is ridiculous.

Humans naturally search for the meaning of life and those questions that we can't answer, some people use philosophy and organised religion to seek for these answers others try to calculate it using their own gut instinct.
Some people happen to read some of the Bible and see that it does make sense. Some people believe and trust that it is true. I happen to be one of the latter. Saying something like that hints that you aren't very tolerant towards other religions yourself. I can see where Atheists come from, sure the Bible isn't clean cut it isn't fact, seeing that there are no proofs for a lot of it.

Rock Climber

Getting back on topic before half this thread ends up in humanities...

Essentially I agree with sangre on the OP's question-Going to Mass if you dont believe in it and doing all the other related things is not only bizarre,it's hypocritical.
I'm in somewhat less agreement on the other points.

Ickle Magoo

maidhc wrote:

... they are reasonable people who appreciate small gestures.

So are my parents...which is why after I said I didn't believe in God & wouldn't be attending church any more, they didn't blink an eyelid - I think I was 8, never mind twenty-something. :eek:

The Corinthian

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I am be a regular church goer and I don't force my beliefs on others but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

Depends upon those beliefs. If you are of one faith and then are willing to marry in the faith of another simply for appearances sake, then yes, certainly there’s hypocrisy there in that the individual would be willing to commit a heresy in their own faith.

On the other hand one cannot deny that the rituals and traditions of any religion are typically part of who we are ethnically, whether we believe in the mumbo-jumbo or not. Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church has happily adopted the rituals and traditions of other faiths over the centuries for this very reason, so making the transition from one faith to another more popular and palatable.

Talliesin

Don't go.

If asked why you aren't going, say no member of that religion invited you to go.

If he then invites you, go.

Simply underlines the difference between why you are going and why he is going and gives you the space to each express your own religious views without it having to be a battleground.

LegacyUser

Don't go to the church in that case.
Don't celebrate Christmas either.
At the end of the day, you have to just spend time with your family and compromise. Enjoy the day with them, you are not doing it for religion, you're doing it for you family.
Just because you don't believe doesn't mean you just can't go along with it like many people don't believe in ghosts yet tell ghost stories for entertainment!
People are too prim and proper on their belieft just enjoy it for what you get out of it, don't just risk a close hour that comforts your family just because you don't believe; and if you were abused in some way by the church and your family knows about it that you have not told us about, then your family would be wrong knowing your beliefs aswell to expect you to go.
Get off your high horse and think about it with a bit of heart.

jimmycrackcorm

I have to go to an ll divo concert with my wife in a few months. I don't really want to go as I'm not into them and I'm forced to listen to them in the car. But I'll go as I love my wife otherwise I'd be starting a thread on it in PI...

Sangre

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

I have to go to an ll divo concert with my wife in a few months. I don't really want to go as I'm not into them and I'm forced to listen to them in the car. But I'll go as I love my wife otherwise I'd be starting a thread on it in PI...

My Wife wants me to attend a KKK meeting. I don't really believe in that but I'll go anyway as I don't want to make a fuss.

5starpool

Sangre wrote:

My Wife wants me to attend a KKK meeting. I don't really believe in that but I'll go anyway as I don't want to make a fuss.

Il Divo are bad, but I don't think they are a hate spreading and illegal organisation, but if they are it is right to tell his wife he won't go.

On topic and not making some idiotic comparison, I am of the 'suck it in' camp too. If I had reason to be anywhere else (as opposed to making something up as an excuse) there would be no hassle, but as it is I am almost expected to go on xmas day by my parents and this year I put up no resistance, whereas last year I said I wasn't going but my mother (very confusingly) told me I should go just for xmas or else my father would be upset (in other words, she would be upset).

I got over it and realised it isn't worth fighting over. If, god forbid (excuse the pun) you refused to go one year again and had a big row about it that ruined xmas and something bad happened to your father, you would realise how stupid the whole thing is and regret being part of ruining xmas along with your equally stubborn father.

Go along, take the vile tasting bread, stand and kneel as appropriate and leave glad that you don't have to do that for another year.

People should not be coerced into doing something, but at times it is easier all round just to do something, especially something like this.

An issue like this is not the equal of going to a child blood letting, or a KKK meeting or some other equally preposturous comparison.

Sam Vimes

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I am be a regular church goer and I don't force my beliefs on others but I can never understand why non-believers are prepared to attend church wedding and funeral services. Does this not undermine their views/beliefs?

no. a wedding is about celebrating two people getting married, a funeral is about saying goodbye to a friend. christmas mass is about celebrating the birth of jesus. that's the difference

BuffyBot wrote:

OP, guess what?

We all have to do things we don't like in life. Sometimes, in order to keep the peace, you have to suck it up and take one on the chin. Are you beliefs, or lack of them, worth straining Christmas over?

yes. i got sick of placating unreasonable people quite some time ago. i can spot people who have very overbearing parents a mile away. they're very timid and quiet and polite and let people push them around because they're used to sacrificing their own happiness by letting loud, obnoxious people have their way. there's a girl in work like that. she's always getting pushed around by this horrible bitch but she won't do anything about it because her dad's the same and she's used to it. i feel sorry for the girl and if she just learned to stand up for herself she'd make her life a whole lot better.

i used to have mad rows with my dad because he's the same. now i just say no and leave the room. i don't let an argument happen

JC 2K3 wrote:

Geez, you sound like a teenage attention whore OP.

You go, sit down, stare at the ceiling for 30-45 mins and then go home, no religion has been inflicted on you and there's no arguments.

You come from a Catholic family, therefore your family is going to celebrate Christmas in a Catholic way. Just accept it, it's tradition and it happens once a year.

Or you could refuse and cause tensions and arguments, gaining nothing but attention and a selfsh sense of elitism...

says the man with JC in his name. you're the guy from the christianity forum who thinks creationism is real right? (i could be wrong about that) it's such an amazing coincidence that your "its only 45 minutes" argument happens to support a faith that you have what i would consider to be a fanatical belief in. imo there's a bit of a conflict of interest on your part here because you want everyone to believe in your god.

JC 2K3 wrote:

The OP's essentially been invited by his family to come and share a family tradition....

yes and that family tradition is something that he has strong views against.
what if that family tradition was to pray to the moon goddess? would you go and wear the robe and do the chants and draw the pentagram in your own blood considering your strong belief in the catholic church?

LegacyUser

Commander Vimes wrote:

no. a wedding is about celebrating two people getting married, a funeral is about saying goodbye to a friend. christmas mass is about celebrating the birth of jesus. that's the difference



yes. i got sick of placating unreasonable people quite some time ago. i can spot people who have very overbearing parents a mile away. they're very timid and quiet and polite and let people push them around because they're used to sacrificing their own happiness by letting loud, obnoxious people have their way. there's a girl in work like that. she's always getting pushed around by this horrible bitch but she won't do anything about it because her dad's the same and she's used to it. i feel sorry for the girl and if she just learned to stand up for herself she'd make her life a whole lot better.

i used to have mad rows with my dad because he's the same. now i just say no and leave the room. i don't let an argument happen



says the man with JC in his name. you're the guy from the christianity forum who thinks creationism is real right? (i could be wrong about that) it's such an amazing coincidence that your "its only 45 minutes" argument happens to support a faith that you have what i would consider to be a fanatical belief in. imo there's a bit of a conflict of interest on your part here because you want everyone to believe in your god.



yes and that family tradition is something that he has strong views against.
what if that family tradition was to pray to the moon goddess? would you go and wear the robe and do the chants and draw the pentagram in your own blood considering your strong belief in the catholic church?

That is all right etc etc. For the person who doesn't believe. Sometimes it's just nice to go along with what your parents believe if you're confident it's a load of waffle. I mean what are you frightened of? It's not going to change your opinion and you can always wear earplugs or earphones nonone can see in the church!
I have went to protestant christenings, catholic and I have used it as an occasion. This crap about people forcing belief in their God is the same as you wanting people to have your belief so it goes both ways.

End of discussion I think, if you are Atheist and do not want to go to the church so be it. Go and find a friend to hang around with or girlfriend to go and watch tv, cinema with etc.
Noone is forcing you and nobody cares about your view, you are free to do what you want.
My children never wanted to go to mass with me because they wanted to watch the simpsons at the same time( a double bill). I didn't force them.
They were only 8 and 5. I mean I was lenient on my beliefs with them, so your parents should allow you the choice too. And if you don't want to go with them, don't wait in the car or play solitaire or whatever options you have available. Stop trying to make a point of stubborness, chances are nobody cares about you only your family and this issue is so trivial to other parts of life for you all.
Just get a grip. And the birth of Christ had nothing to do with me celebrating Christmas, I love celebrating Christmas as a family tranquil day, the tradition of mass is like a gathering that I choose to go to.

At the end of the day, rebelling about your choice of religion is not something people who live their life, have mouths to feed, have problems bigger to worry about, really give a flying cr(p about. Nobody cares, do what you want.

Sangre

5starpool wrote:

An issue like this is not the equal of going to a child blood letting, or a KKK meeting or some other equally preposturous comparison.

As you so gracefully missed, my analogy wasn't to compare the two organisation, it was to compare the principles that some people hold. If you are wholly anti-racist would you compromise your beliefs and attend a KKK meeting for your family's sake? Sure, its only 1 hour a year, you don't have to listen, you can even put earplugs in.

What's that? You mean your principles mean you don't even want to attend the meeting? Your telling me your so selfish, so self-centred that you would let your beliefs get in the way of your family's racist beliefs? You disgust me.



Seems a lack of belief in God equates to lack of belief in anything.

LegacyUser

Sangre wrote:

As you so gracefully missed, my analogy wasn't to compare the two organisation, it was to compare the principles that some people hold. If you are wholly anti-racist would you compromise your beliefs and attend a KKK meeting for your family's sake? Sure, its only 1 hour a year, you don't have to listen, you can even put earplugs in.

What's that? You mean your principles mean you don't even want to attend the meeting? Your telling me your so selfish, so self-centred that you would let your beliefs get in the way of your family's racist beliefs? You disgust me.

Stick to then. Do not go. You are not selfish, stubborn etc. We don't know what sort of character you are. But we would if we had this discussion face to face.
You should not compare KKK to a typical Irish church going service there is no similiarity; racist views are quite different to religious views so look for another example to back your point.
I didn't leave my children go because they wanted to watch the simpsons so I wouldn't call that a big massive life or death choice, they were kids and they didn't want to go because they thought it was not as good as the simpsons they may be right.
My son is now a non religion believer and he's had a wedding, christening etc. Maybe it was pointless, but he's a good hearted person who made that choice yet he doens't go to mass. Do you have a negative term to describe him? Or is he a fool for going about something he doesn't believe in?

Last point, stop moaning, I'm beginning to think you have a chip on your shoulder becuase of an issue that nobody really thinks about unless they are in a bad mood.
What next, should refuse christmas trees? Protest for wearing a shamrock on St.Patricks day because we don't believe in it?

Seriously, get a life. Live and let live. Don't go to mass. Nobody cares. Live life Atheist as long as you don't start shouting to others "Hey I have rights no to believe in what you do".
Talk about nobody really cares about your choice. They care about their's.