Loyalist groups to march in Dublin

LovelyHurling · 15-01-2006 03:55PM

BigArnie wrote:

And you'd be right for the most part. There's a difference between marching peacefully to air grievences and marching 'peacefully' to incite trouble and agitate people. Unfortunately, Loyalist marchers are far too commonly known to do the latter.

Have you read the other posts in this thread at all? BigArnie every argument you get into its always the same unbending repetition of previous points, sorry I just think this point about victims has been argued and defended enough already, make up your own mind, thats fine

Unionism is no more a political movement than, sorry to say it, a bunch of bigots airing their newfound grienvences because they don't have things their own way so much anymore. It's not nice being on the losing side, eh?

Again, Im not going to argue with your opinion, and I can only argue for myself when I say I dont think either side can have things its own way any more, that day is long gone and there will be no end 'winner'.

we don't REALLY care. We actually feel sorry for Loyalists and how increasingly pathetic and impotent they've become.

Who do you feel like you're speaking for when you say 'we'? A little respect for others is never too much to ask for.

BigArnie · 15-01-2006 04:01PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

Have you read the other posts in this thread at all? BigArnie every argument you get into its always the same unbending repetition of previous points, sorry I just think this point about victims has been argued and defended enough already, make up your own mind, thats fine

It's something I felt I would point out and have done so. I don't need to answer to you because you feel a point has been 'done to death' - it's a salient point. I make it again. Accept it.

LovelyHurling wrote:

Again, Im not going to argue with your opinion, and I can only argue for myself when I say I dont think either side can have things its own way any more, that day is long gone and there will be no end 'winner'.

I agree with you. Compromise is the best way forward. *tumbleweed drifts past*

LovelyHurling wrote:

Who do you feel like you're speaking for when you say 'we'? A little respect for others is never too much to ask for.

Respect is earned. To be honest, neither community in the North of Ireland have done much to earn my respect of recent years.

Loyalists... the new Nationalists? :eek:

LovelyHurling · 15-01-2006 04:09PM

BigArnie wrote:

it's a salient point. I make it again. Accept it.

I never denied you made the point, just saying we disagree on it.

Respect is earned. To be honest, neither community in the North of Ireland have done much to earn my respect of recent years.

Im talking about having enough respect not to lower the argument into petty name calling. I dont respect the republican movement enough to go march alongside Jerry Adams, but I have enough respect for it not to resort to that kind of childishness

LordSutch · 15-01-2006 04:48PM

Flex wrote:

And if you are unaware, we dont 'own' any of that British flag. "As for the Irish flag being flown 'Fair enough' after all, they do own one third of it", so whats the problem?

Its really not worth going head to head with you Flex because although we are talking about the same "Troubles" we are both arguing from our own entrenched perspectives! so you carry on with your opinion
and I shall carry on with mine but as for the make-up of the Union Flag "Think again"!

BigArnie · 15-01-2006 05:16PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

Im talking about having enough respect not to lower the argument into petty name calling.

I was simply calling a spade a spade. The people of Northern Ireland have done enough damage to their own reputations in recent years. Childish names for childish people.

Chong · 15-01-2006 07:20PM

How is this argument still in after hours surely this suits Humanities better. Plus its good to see MYCROFT or should I say Freelancer is in fine form on this thread.

darkman2 · 15-01-2006 08:37PM

I say let them have their march as long as its peaceful. I agree with Tom McGurk, I certainly dont care. I also agree with other sentiments that the 'troubles' now are extremley childish and embarrasing. TBH does any right minded person here want anthing to do with any of them? Of course not. I know 10 year olds with more common sense.

LovelyHurling · 15-01-2006 09:05PM

WDK wrote:

How is this argument still in after hours surely this suits Humanities better.

Answer:

Unionism is no more a political movement than, sorry to say it, a bunch of bigots airing their newfound grienvences because they don't have things their own way so much anymore. It's not nice being on the losing side, eh?

OR, throw glass bottles at them!

etc...

BigArnie · 16-01-2006 12:47AM

LovelyHurling wrote:

Answer:

etc...

The question still begs - what gives them the right to come down here and march at the Rep of Ireland taxpayers expense? It's been asked dozens on times on this thread and nobody has been able to answer it with anything better than "Ah sure it won't cost anything relatively, it's just another march"

1) People in the Rep Ireland (except for Dublin scumbags who want trouble) don't want this march.

2) People in the Rep Ireland don't want to have to pay for this march... and why the hell should they pay for it when they really couldn't give a toss about NI politics/hatred?

Simple question, no answer.

LovelyHurling · 16-01-2006 01:20AM

BigArnie wrote:

The question still begs - what gives them the right to come down here... Rep of Ireland

Same reasons that were posted a few pages ago BigArnie. No matter what anybody's opinion, lets face it - at the moment Northern Ireland is British territory. Unionists comprise more than hald the North's population and because of its size can broadly be classed into two groups -

Those who want absolute loyalty to the mainland
Those who want loyalty to the mainland but have a grasp of the word powersharing, and understand the worries of the Republican movement

Now, as has been posted so often that people must be sick of the repetition... both of these groups have recently been sensing an attempt to flog that familiar dead horse called United Ireland. Unionists feel it is a good analogy in marching down here to the situation of Ireland 'marching' up there. The example was given of Bertie Ahern coming on BBCNI before Christmas discussing his hopes for a united Ireland, similarly Hain's reference to the same matter.
The frustration and confusion people feel in Unionists marching down O Connell St is the same frustration and confusion that Unionists feel about such sudden and strong Southern involvement in Northern affairs.

Heres where it gets complicated: very few northern loyalists disagree that southern government involvement is necessary if peace is to be kept in Ulster, the extent and onset of that Irish influence, given SFIRA participation in the Irish parliament is causing unease.

Survivors and victims in particular feel it necessary to protest at past SFIRA participation in the southern parliament, which has gone on without question for years. Now that the Irish government is becoming increasingly involved in Northern politics, they feel historical SFIRA involvement in that parliament should be recognized before moving on.

Others feel it is important to highlight Ulsters cultural differences to the south by way of this parade - cultural differences that underline our seperate ethnic and historical derivation. Given the fact that hundreds of thousands of these people live in Ulster, this should be kept in mind before jumping on the "United" ireland bandwagon. You also may not have read that the sash will not be worn by anyone on the day, and will be replaced by orange lillies instead to avoid causing offence.

Most people are marching for a combination of the above reasons.

Scumbags will undoubtedly be arriving from both sides, hopefully with minimal effect and with minimal input from Dublin scumbags.

All of the above has been posted in the past few pages apologies to anyone who just read through that for the second/ third time.

Lastly, nobody goes out to get punched, these people want to make their point and go home.

Flex · 16-01-2006 02:38AM

LovelyHurling wrote:

.... equally so I dont think the whole county of Tyrone should necessarily go south just if the majority are Catholic.

Hang on now, Derry and Armagh were both 55% Unionist and because of that 55% majority there was never any question of the fact that both counties in their entirity would be in the new northern province, thats the point i was making about fermanagh and tyrone (they were 55% nationalist, but they wernt allowed join the south)

If thats the case, are you saying the North as a whole entity has no right to proclaim its nationalist identity just because most overall residents are protestant? It's not a numbers game.

What is the norths 'nationalist identity'?

A United Ireland will not happen.

People once thought that no part of ireland would ever exist as a sovereign republic or any other type of nation outside the UK.....

LovelyHurling · 16-01-2006 03:32AM

Flex wrote:

Hang on now, Derry and Armagh were both 55% Unionist and because of that 55% majority there was never any question of the fact that both counties in their entirity would be in the new northern province, thats the point i was making about fermanagh and tyrone (they were 55% nationalist, but they wernt allowed join the south)

Yes that was probably unfair, Im not here defending that at all so you'd be as well arguing that decision with one of the deadmen who made it. I dont care if there are 5% more Unionists than nationalists, its unfair to divide a place like NI on such an insignificant few percentage points. Its not about who has 5% more or less. I wish there was a way to allow for both unionists and republicans to equally proclaim their respective national identities

What is the norths 'nationalist identity'?

republicans who see themselves as belonging not to the UK like Unionists do, but to what is now the Republic of Ireland. I'd like to see them assert their ethnic origin in as strong a way as possible without impinging on the rights of unionists to equally assert our own ethnic origins. How this model is to be properly approached can only really be decided when powersharing kicks in.

People once thought that no part of ireland would ever exist as a sovereign republic or any other type of nation outside the UK.....

Im not sure if they thought it would never happen that Southern Ireland would be taken back. I should have clarified that I meant a United Ireland will not happen within our lifetimes, nor will the traditional United Kingdom of GB and NI be recreated within our lifetimes... all of that has been changed forever and to revert to the old ways of thinking at this moment in time would only compromise all the hard work that both sides have been involved in since the troubles began. Ulster is indivisable

murphaph · 16-01-2006 12:02PM

BigArnie wrote:

The question still begs - what gives them the right to come down here and march at the Rep of Ireland taxpayers expense?

Simple question, no answer.

Au contraire, The Anglo-Irish agreement and subsequently the GFA gave the Government of Ireland (who represent the people of the RoI) a certain say in the affairs of part of a foreign country. The prods have as much right to march here as anyone else so long as our government (us!) interferes with Northern Ireland!

BigArnie · 16-01-2006 12:42PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

Same reasons that were posted a few pages ago BigArnie. No matter what anybody's opinion, lets face it - at the moment Northern Ireland is British territory. Unionists comprise more than hald the North's population and because of its size can broadly be classed into two groups -
Those who want absolute loyalty to the mainland

Those who want loyalty to the mainland but have a grasp of the word powersharing, and understand the worries of the Republican movement

Now, as has been posted so often that people must be sick of the repetition... both of these groups have recently been sensing an attempt to flog that familiar dead horse called United Ireland. Unionists feel it is a good analogy in marching down here to the situation of Ireland 'marching' up there. The example was given of Bertie Ahern coming on BBCNI before Christmas discussing his hopes for a united Ireland, similarly Hain's reference to the same matter.
The frustration and confusion people feel in Unionists marching down O Connell St is the same frustration and confusion that Unionists feel about such sudden and strong Southern involvement in Northern affairs.

Heres where it gets complicated: very few northern loyalists disagree that southern government involvement is necessary if peace is to be kept in Ulster, the extent and onset of that Irish influence, given SFIRA participation in the Irish parliament is causing unease.

Survivors and victims in particular feel it necessary to protest at past SFIRA participation in the southern parliament, which has gone on without question for years. Now that the Irish government is becoming increasingly involved in Northern politics, they feel historical SFIRA involvement in that parliament should be recognized before moving on.

Others feel it is important to highlight Ulsters cultural differences to the south by way of this parade - cultural differences that underline our seperate ethnic and historical derivation. Given the fact that hundreds of thousands of these people live in Ulster, this should be kept in mind before jumping on the "United" ireland bandwagon. You also may not have read that the sash will not be worn by anyone on the day, and will be replaced by orange lillies instead to avoid causing offence.

Most people are marching for a combination of the above reasons.

Scumbags will undoubtedly be arriving from both sides, hopefully with minimal effect and with minimal input from Dublin scumbags.

All of the above has been posted in the past few pages apologies to anyone who just read through that for the second/ third time.

Lastly, nobody goes out to get punched, these people want to make their point and go home.

You've completely missed my point. That being - why should Rep of Ireland taxpayers pay for a march by British citizens in Dublin? Surely Love Ulster should be paying for the policiing and clean-up, no?

BigArnie · 16-01-2006 12:43PM

murphaph wrote:

Au contraire, The Anglo-Irish agreement and subsequently the GFA gave the Government of Ireland (who represent the people of the RoI) a certain say in the affairs of part of a foreign country. The prods have as much right to march here as anyone else so long as our government (us!) interferes with Northern Ireland!

Okay, THAT answers my question. But seeing as this is the case, I'm assuming vested interests down South will continue to push for a United Ireland. If that's the arrangement we've all bought into, then why bitch and moan?

LordSutch · 16-01-2006 03:05PM

Flex wrote:

'Real' victims of the troubles? They were on both sides. People were murdered by the IRA, and people were murdered by Loyalist paramilitaries and British army. It was nearly 50-50 between both communities.

Not sure about that Flex, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of murders, bombings, shootings knee cappings were carried out by the IRA/ INLA and to a lesser extent by the UVF-LVF, and as for the Army & Police they certainly didnt intentionally go out to exterminate the Nationalist people over a thirty year period, and neither did the security forces plant Bombs in Pubs/ Shopping Centres/ Busses/ Cars/ Vans! (So please Stop trying to Re-write History)! and before you start connecting the security forces to certain murderous incidents-Dont Bother! everybody is only too aware that there were "Rogue Elements" in the Forces who are also to be diplored.
They too should be locked-up along with those Republican/Loyalist scum bags who still walk this planet!

ButcherOfNog · 16-01-2006 05:18PM

let them march if they want to, but i'd stay well clear of it as the gardai won't be the slightest bit intimidated by them, and if they cause any trouble, they'll start splitting heads. they get away with causing trouble up north cause of the "we know where you live" situation with the police up there. this won't apply with the gardai.

jaqian · 17-01-2006 09:05AM

This is a little OT but I was wondering apart from the IMO "romantic notion" of a united Ireland why would anyone want to join the Republic?

1) They've a better medical/healthcare system up there
2) Price of houses and cost of living is lower

That would change is they joined us. At the moment we're a united country in everything but name and currency. Once the UK accepts the Euro that'll be another barrier gone.

scojones · 28-01-2006 02:12AM

So uh, is this going ahead?

senordingdong · 28-01-2006 02:36AM

Lovely Hurling, I wanna ask you something; if the six counties were to fall under the Republic tomorrow, how would you feel? How do you think it would affect you?

Not just small things liek currency, sign posts and black cabs, but what would be your pro's and con's?

darkman2 · 28-01-2006 03:36AM

senordingdong wrote:

Lovely Hurling, I wanna ask you something; if the six counties were to fall under the Republic tomorrow, how would you feel? How do you think it would affect you?

Not just small things liek currency, sign posts and black cabs, but what would be your pro's and con's?

Somehow I dont think he will be able to answer that:cool:

senordingdong · 28-01-2006 03:54AM

darkman2 wrote:

Somehow I dont think he will be able to answer that:cool:

Why?

darkman2 · 28-01-2006 01:17PM

senordingdong wrote:

Why?

Because nobody you ask from the loyalist persuasion ever gives an adequate answer. Before they begin, you know it always has something to do with the 'Roman Catholic Church' and pathetic religious stuff like that. There just too backward up there with a mindset suited to the 1600s:mad:

Binomate · 28-01-2006 01:22PM

God save our gracious Queen tbh.

darkman2 · 28-01-2006 01:43PM

Binomate wrote:

God save our gracious Queen tbh.

That seems to be all they can say.:rolleyes:

Binomate · 28-01-2006 01:54PM

I'm not a Unionist. It's just a catchy song. :v:

darkman2 · 28-01-2006 02:04PM

Binomate wrote:

I'm not a Unionist. It's just a catchy song. :v:

sssssssssssshhhhhhhhh dont say that too loud;)

rsynnott · 28-01-2006 02:32PM

darkman2 wrote:

Because nobody you ask from the loyalist persuasion ever gives an adequate answer. Before they begin, you know it always has something to do with the 'Roman Catholic Church' and pathetic religious stuff like that. There just too backward up there with a mindset suited to the 1600s:mad:

All SF-ers, are, of course, completely rational when talking on the subject. Indeed.

darkman2 · 28-01-2006 02:40PM

rsynnott wrote:

All SF-ers, are, of course, completely rational when talking on the subject. Indeed.

Just to clarify I think SF are a bunch of thugs and gangsters and I have no time for them whatsoever:mad:

senordingdong · 29-01-2006 12:40AM

Well I agree with the double standard-ness of the Unionists but I just want to hear it from a rational, level-headed unionist.

Loyalist groups to march in Dublin

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