Loyalist groups to march in Dublin

LovelyHurling

senordingdong wrote:

Lovely Hurling, I wanna ask you something; if the six counties were to fall under the Republic tomorrow, how would you feel? How do you think it would affect you?

Not just small things liek currency, sign posts and black cabs, but what would be your pro's and con's?

Thats actually a really good question and to be honest its not an easy one to answer.

I suppose that all I can really say is that I see my family/ community as having a very particular kind of historical, cultural and religious derivation. Personally, I had a great, happy (and peaceful) upbringing in Tyrone, and I honestly feel as if my children's educational standards and religious identities would be compromised if I had a family down here.

Its a very minor point: but I have a number of friends from college who are southern protestants who are seen as somehow foreign by some of their friends. One of my lecturers last year was giving out about Ireland beating England in the rugby, saying what sore losers they were and then turned to one guy, a Cork Church of Ireland boy and said "oh sorry didnt mean to offend you". He was as Irish as anybody in the room yet his identity was 'foreign' just because of his religion, even in 2004 and in the eyes of a senior UCD academic. Inclusion?

1916: I dont want to be part of a state that openly commemorates the men of 1916 (on either side I should add) as heroes. This is very topical at the moment, what with recent statments by the irish president and bertie ahern advocating such commemorations. The orange order (no, im not actually a fan) walking down the garvaghy road is one thing, but i think if a British politician did it he should be given the door. Id expect no less from an Irish politician on the 1916 issue tbh.

A lot of my opinions on this wouldnt affect my day to day life. As I said, I live in Dublin right now, and for now Im very happy here, have loads of great southern friends, even a southern girlfriend named Mairead - with a fada - imagine!

Just as it wouldnt hugely affect a Tyrone Protestant Unionist to live in the Republic on a day-to-day basis, neither does it affect a Tyrone Protestanbt Nationalist to live in GBR on a day to day basis.

Its more a question of preserving historical, religious and cultural identites rather than a conflict of basic interests existing blindly under what is essentially day-to-day a faceless governemnt. Apart from the cost of living, Dublin is a fantastic place to live

Blackjack

LovelyHurling wrote:

1916: I dont want to be part of a state that openly commemorates the men of 1916 (on either side I should add) as heroes. This is very topical at the moment, what with recent statments by the irish president and bertie ahern advocating such commemorations.

Would you then agree with the abolition of 12th of July celebrations?.

LovelyHurling wrote:

The orange order (no, im not actually a fan) walking down the garvaghy road is one thing, but i think if a British politician did it he should be given the door. Id expect no less from an Irish politician on the 1916 issue tbh.

David Trimble and Ian Paisley did so (and paraded down the streets with Arms held high) in either 96 or 97 if I recall correctly, and it was the making of Trimbles political career, this after the North was held to ransom by protesting Loyalists for the prior days before the march was forced through.


I'm not having a go at you personally, but to say that you're somehow offended by 1916 celebrations, I therefore would like to know your opionion on 12th night and subsequent celebrations, and also on the fact that 2 Politicians (along with numerous others I'm sure -they're the only 2 I can specifically recall) that did walk down the Garvaghy road - yet 1 is the leader of the DUP today.

Rockee

If orangemen want to commemorate their King Billy then they should do what theyve done for nearly the last 400 years...stay in the North. Im sorry but if a Loyalist march goes ahead in Dublin then I think WorldWar3 is going to ensue. St.Patricks Day marches have taken place up the North because St.Patrick had nothing to do with killing people. Do you honestly think us Rep. of Ireland people are going to stand for a march that celebrates the killing of Catholics??? I hope not.

nlgbbbblth

LovelyHurling wrote:

I have a number of friends from college who are southern protestants who are seen as somehow foreign by some of their friends. One of my lecturers last year was giving out about Ireland beating England in the rugby, saying what sore losers they were and then turned to one guy, a Cork Church of Ireland boy and said "oh sorry didnt mean to offend you". He was as Irish as anybody in the room yet his identity was 'foreign' just because of his religion, even in 2004 and in the eyes of a senior UCD academic. Inclusion?

I can testify that this level of ignorance persists in the Republic of Ireland.

Despite
- Wolfe Tone
- Charles Parnell
- Robert Emmet
- Henry Grattan

and
- W.B.Yeats
- J.M.Synge
- Sean O'Casey
- Samuel Beckett

all being Protestants and proud Irishmen.

That lecturer deserves to have a pint glass smashed in his face for expressing such a narrow-minded and incorrect opinion.

Flex

LovelyHurling wrote:

I honestly feel as if my children's educational standards and religious identities would be compromised if I had a family down here.

What do you mean by compromised; that a united Ireland would lead to discrimination or persecution of the minority?

Its a very minor point: but I have a number of friends from college who are southern protestants who are seen as somehow foreign by some of their friends. One of my lecturers last year was giving out about Ireland beating England in the rugby, saying what sore losers they were and then turned to one guy, a Cork Church of Ireland boy and said "oh sorry didnt mean to offend you". He was as Irish as anybody in the room yet his identity was 'foreign' just because of his religion, even in 2004 and in the eyes of a senior UCD academic. Inclusion?

Personally, I think people of the CoI would be seen as 'foreign' because AFAIK the head of the CoI is the British monarch. Was very foolish and stupid of the lecturer though, no doubt. Theres been loads of great Irish patriots of the Protestant faith. The south for the most part is quite secular though; in fact the only people i know who practice their religion regularly are Muslims on my estate who have immigrated here recently.

1916: I dont want to be part of a state that openly commemorates the men of 1916 (on either side I should add) as heroes. This is very topical at the moment, what with recent statments by the irish president and bertie ahern advocating such commemorations. The orange order (no, im not actually a fan) walking down the garvaghy road is one thing, but i think if a British politician did it he should be given the door. Id expect no less from an Irish politician on the 1916 issue tbh.

Fair enough, thats your PoV on 1916. But as Blackjack mentioned, Trimble and Paisley both marched in a orange order parades, and at one point they were bothe leaders of the 2 major parties representing unionism.

Its more a question of preserving historical, religious and cultural identites rather than a conflict of basic interests existing blindly under what is essentially day-to-day a faceless governemnt.

Do you think Protestantism and Ulster-Scots 'culture' would be oppressed in a united Ireland?

LovelyHurling

Flex wrote:

Do you think Protestantism and Ulster-Scots 'culture' would be oppressed in a united Ireland?

Not opressed at all, I just think that the way the educational system runs down south, along with the fact that protestantism is still so overwhelmingly a minor religion in the south, that certain aspects of preservation of a religious diversity would be compromised.

AFAIK the head of the CoI is the British monarch.

Not an expert on the church of ireland down here, but everytime ive gone to Church in Dublin, be it Christchurch, St Ann's or St Patricks they've always skipped the Prayer for the Queen and prayed for the president or the irish government... i dont know what makes you think the British monarch runs that chruch. Theres a church of ireland and then a relative church the church of england

the fact that 2 Politicians (along with numerous others I'm sure -they're the only 2 I can specifically recall) that did walk down the Garvaghy road - yet 1 is the leader of the DUP today.

Just to clarify: by British politician I meant a national politician like Blair/ Browne etc. In a United Kingdom, they wouldnt go making speeches praising violent nationalsim so sensitive and pointless and so recent that its legacy is still haunting people's memories. I wouldnt want to live under that particular ethos.

By the way, interesting figure in The Irish Times yesterday by Kevin Myers - in the five years after Irish independence 5,000 Protestants left from the south and moved to NI or mainland UK. Not saying that would happen NI under a unity, but it goes to show how much identity can mean to a group of people.

jaqian

LovelyHurling wrote:

By the way, interesting figure in The Irish Times yesterday by Kevin Myers - in the five years after Irish independence 5,000 Protestants left from the south and moved to NI or mainland UK. Not saying that would happen NI under a unity, but it goes to show how much identity can mean to a group of people.

There was probably a fear (not nessesarily unjustified) that they would be discriminiated against back then. There is still discrimination and hatred now just read over some of the vitriolic posts in this thread.

A Dub in Glasgo

LovelyHurling wrote:

Just to clarify: by British politician I meant a national politician like Blair/ Browne etc. In a United Kingdom, they wouldnt go making speeches praising violent nationalsim so sensitive and pointless and so recent that its legacy is still haunting people's memories. I wouldnt want to live under that particular ethos.

Yeah nothing like having a PM who misleads the country and parliament to take the country into an invasion and illegal war resulting in the death of tens of thousands of innocent people. Nice ethos

Terry

from what i remember from school, the easter rising was native people fighting against invaders. the 12th of july celebrates a victory by a dutchman over the natives of this island.
i don't see a problem with any politician marching in a parade that marks an event that was the beginning of our liberation.

LovelyHurling

This is a bit off topic, but liberation is a very heavy word to be throwing around. It suggests that pre 1916 there ws some sort of harsh oppression regime or system of slavery going on. Lets not forget the era James Joyce was born into and prospered under, his Irishness was never brought into question or objected against. He was born a free Irishman pre 1916 and died no differently post 1916.

1916 did bring about a liberation - but a very particular kind of cultural liberation more so than a moral or ethical one. The oppression that unquestionably existed throught the penal law era and further on into the famine years had evolved and disappeared. Admittedly Ireland was economically below par with the rest of the British Isles (thats the position NI is in today as a matter of fact)but legally stood on the same turf with Edinburgh and Cardiff, and yes, London

Culturally Ireland deserved/ deserves complete and irrefutable independance. Was 1916 worth such cultural freedom? Especially when you consider Irishmen were in terms of religion, society and civil laws already free. Not up to me to answer it.

Blackjack

LovelyHurling wrote:

Just to clarify: by British politician I meant a national politician like Blair/ Browne etc. In a United Kingdom, they wouldnt go making speeches praising violent nationalsim so sensitive and pointless and so recent that its legacy is still haunting people's memories. I wouldnt want to live under that particular ethos.

But is Ian not the leader of the largest Party in Northern Ireland?. Was David Trimble (up until recently) not the leader of the UUP?.

You should read the proclamation of Independence, particularly where it refers to cherishing all Children of the Nation equally. You must also remember that about a quarter to a third of Dublin at the time was Slums with worse conditions than the Black hole of Calcutta.
Given that the Famine, Penal laws, the use of law to prevent the meetings of O'Connell (a pacifist, who's warnings that the governance of Ireland required reform, otherwise the inevitable outcome would be violent went unheeded, and were eventually prophetic) were memories a little more prevalent in peoples minds at the time, you really can't blame the leaders of the 1916 rising for
1- their impatience with the continued denial of home rule
2- perhaps wondering "What have the British ever done for us?".

LovelyHurling wrote:

By the way, interesting figure in The Irish Times yesterday by Kevin Myers - in the five years after Irish independence 5,000 Protestants left from the south and moved to NI or mainland UK. Not saying that would happen NI under a unity, but it goes to show how much identity can mean to a group of people.

This Link probably explains quite a bit of this, particularly when particularly when noting that 30,000 British Soldiers and their Families left after the formation of the Free State. This on it's own would considerably inflate the figures relating to the decline of the Protestant Population. Also noted were the incidences of Mixed Marriage, Fertility etc as factors contributing to the decline overall.

Again, I have no issue with you personally. However what I do take issue with is the insistence of certain aspects of Unionism that all must respect their history and culture, but can't help themselves to get offended at every juncture and have little or no respect for the cultures of the very people they are demanding this respect from.

toffeapple

what you are saying about Republic protestants is wrong i know loads and it was never a issue..i was good friedns witha guy i worked with and never knew he was protestant until i went to a funeral and realised i was in church of ireland...no one gives a sh!t..majority of people down here dont care about religion...you are proof of this..how many bad reactions have you recieved since you have been down here???
how easy do you think it would be for me with a strong northside dub accent to Intergrate into a mainly protestant area of belfast??
IMO opinion the majority of irish peole dont care about your religion.

EOA_Mushy

Danno wrote:

With comments like post #4 "I can't wait to see the faces on the nationalists when the union-jacks and the ulster flags are flown" it is obvious that some are coming to incite trouble.

Consprisy theory: Not enough terriorist activity in dublin to warent america f**king with us..... = Give it a quick stir...

Flex

LovelyHurling wrote:

This is a bit off topic, but liberation is a very heavy word to be throwing around. It suggests that pre 1916 there ws some sort of harsh oppression regime or system of slavery going on. Lets not forget the era James Joyce was born into and prospered under, his Irishness was never brought into question or objected against. He was born a free Irishman pre 1916 and died no differently post 1916.

However Britain was occupying Ireland. Just because annexation had occured in 1801 which made us part of the UK doesnt change that fact imo. If Israel annexed the West Bank and legally made it part of Israel proper, the West Bank would still be occupied.

1916 did bring about a liberation - but a very particular kind of cultural liberation more so than a moral or ethical one. The oppression that unquestionably existed throught the penal law era and further on into the famine years had evolved and disappeared.

How had it disappeared when Irish people didnt have a nationality though? What Im getting at here is the fact that Irish people were legal and technically known as British. that, to me, is domination and oppression, because Im not from Britain, my parents, grandparents,etc werent either; so why should I be called British? I know people say "Oh, but the Scots can be Scottish and British, and same with the Welsh and English", but they live in Britain and are from Britian, so why would they have and issue with being British? Thats just my own opinion anyway.

Admittedly Ireland was economically below par with the rest of the British Isles (thats the position NI is in today as a matter of fact)but legally stood on the same turf with Edinburgh and Cardiff, and yes, London

The economic conditions we suffered contradicts the whole 'legally equal' stuff though. And in 1911, 39% of Dublin cities people lived in slums describeds as unfit for human habitation, and the death rates (from these living conditions and infant mortality) were worse than Calcutta.

Terry

LovelyHurling wrote:

Its a very minor point: but I have a number of friends from college who are southern protestants who are seen as somehow foreign by some of their friends. One of my lecturers last year was giving out about Ireland beating England in the rugby, saying what sore losers they were and then turned to one guy, a Cork Church of Ireland boy and said "oh sorry didnt mean to offend you". He was as Irish as anybody in the room yet his identity was 'foreign' just because of his religion, even in 2004 and in the eyes of a senior UCD academic. Inclusion?

three quarters of U2 are not catholic. fuck, two of them weren't even born in Ireland, but they all hold Irish passports and are recognised around the world as being Irish.
my childhood friend, trevor, was protestant. he went ot a different school, but was treated equally among the rest of us. nobody ever gave him stick over his religion. my friend scotty is protestant. i'll give him a bit of a slagging sometimes, but just just laughs and points out that catholics believe that 2,000 years ago some bint gave birth to a child and claimed to be a virgin.
most people born in the last 40 years don't really care what religion you are. if you are a good person, then people will like you.

senordingdong

LovelyHurling wrote:

Thats actually a really good question and to be honest its not an easy one to answer.

I suppose that all I can really say is that I see my family/ community as having a very particular kind of historical, cultural and religious derivation. Personally, I had a great, happy (and peaceful) upbringing in Tyrone, and I honestly feel as if my children's educational standards and religious identities would be compromised if I had a family down here.

In fairness, religion isn't as important as that down here anymore, and keep in mind that if Ireland united, you would still be living in a protestant community.

LovelyHurling wrote:

1916: I dont want to be part of a state that openly commemorates the men of 1916 (on either side I should add) as heroes. This is very topical at the moment, what with recent statments by the irish president and bertie ahern advocating such commemorations. The orange order (no, im not actually a fan) walking down the garvaghy road is one thing, but i think if a British politician did it he should be given the door. Id expect no less from an Irish politician on the 1916 issue tbh.

But why shouldn't they? They fought for independance and won. Why shouldn't a country celebrate the achievment orf it's independance?

You seem to think that southerners/catholics are out to get unionists.

LovelyHurling wrote:

Its more a question of preserving historical, religious and cultural identites rather than a conflict of basic interests existing blindly under what is essentially day-to-day a faceless governemnt.

Ya know you wouldn't suffer any persecution from the state in a united Ireland in this day and age.

senordingdong

LovelyHurling wrote:

This is a bit off topic, but liberation is a very heavy word to be throwing around. It suggests that pre 1916 there ws some sort of harsh oppression regime or system of slavery going on. Lets not forget the era James Joyce was born into and prospered under, his Irishness was never brought into question or objected against. He was born a free Irishman pre 1916 and died no differently post 1916.

Yeah but in a British state, paid taxes to British govt. answered to British govt. etc.. etc...

LovelyHurling wrote:

Admittedly Ireland was economically below par with the rest of the British Isles (thats the position NI is in today as a matter of fact)but legally stood on the same turf with Edinburgh and Cardiff, and yes, London

Ireland was a dump. A complete hole. It suffered indescribable neglect from the British govt. who directed what little attention they gave to the protestants of Dublin.
In fact, you should take a look at some 'Punch' cartoons from that era, to see what the english really thought of the Irish.

LovelyHurling wrote:

Culturally Ireland deserved/ deserves complete and irrefutable independance. Was 1916 worth such cultural freedom? Especially when you consider Irishmen were in terms of religion, society and civil laws already free. Not up to me to answer it.

But they weren't free. Like has been said here, they paid to taxes to a foriegn country, were ruled by a foriegn govt.
The work that O'Connel put in was extraordinary but think about what else was lost; look at what's left of the Irish language, it was outlawed at one point, along with simple, inoffensive cultural things like Irish sports.

Terry

it seems to me (from reading some of the posts by lovelyhurling and some of the posts at the loveulster forum) that NI protestants are quite paranoid and are under the impression that they will be treated in the same way the NI catholics were treated until recently. they all need to realise that most of the people here in the republic couldn't give a damn what religion you are. it's not really an every day topic of discussion. the church no longer has any influence over how we live our lives. most schools are now integrated and have seperate religion classes for protestants, should they wish to partake in such classes.

Kilsally

Rockee wrote:

If orangemen want to commemorate their King Billy then they should do what theyve done for nearly the last 400 years...stay in the North. Im sorry but if a Loyalist march goes ahead in Dublin then I think WorldWar3 is going to ensue. St.Patricks Day marches have taken place up the North because St.Patrick had nothing to do with killing people. Do you honestly think us Rep. of Ireland people are going to stand for a march that celebrates the killing of Catholics??? I hope not.

Sorry dude but you REALLY need to go and read some history. "King Billys" elite Dutch guards were almost entirely Catholic. But most importantly this march has feck all to do with King Billy, it is a victims rally and to put you straight again the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland is not allowing lodges to march. There may be Orangemen present but they will not be in regalia but their as individuals. What there seems to be is about half a dozen bands leading this rally. I would presume Willie Frazer will have abit of taste and decency in choosing these bands and you will likely see Pipe bands, Accordian bands and Silver bands playing hymns.

Kilsally

jaqian wrote:

There was probably a fear (not nessesarily unjustified) that they would be discriminiated against back then. There is still discrimination and hatred now just read over some of the vitriolic posts in this thread.

Fear that was justified and indeed reported and condemned in the Dail. It is certainly not the case today but back then it was a reality. But perhaps the perception lingers on.............

Eamon de Valera Prime Minister of the Irish Free State / Irish Republic 1930

"Justifying the sacking of a properly appointed librarian in Mayo, because, though highly qualified, she was a Protestant, de Valera argued in June 1930: "I say the people of Mayo in a county where I think 98% of the population is Catholic are justified in insisting on a Catholic librarian." He went on to widen the issue indeed, and asserted: "a Protestant doctor ought not to be appointed as a dispensary doctor in a mainly Catholic area."

Yeats a prominent Southern Irish Protestant TD in the Dail / Irish Parliament gave the Government a warning:

"If you show that this country, Southern Ireland, is going to be governed by Catholic ideas and by Catholic ideas alone, you will never get the North . . . You will put a wedge in the midst of this nation."

"The Church of Ireland Gazette on 22nd June 1922 reported, "Be this as it
may, the fact remains that in certain districts in Southern Ireland
inoffensive Protestants of all classes are being driven from their homes,
their shops and their farms in such numbers that many of our little
communities are in danger of being entirely wiped out. The small Protestant
minority is at the mercy of local bands of lawless men who have learnt the
use of the revolver for obtaining the property of others which they covet.
The small Protestant communities in the towns and the isolated Protestant
farmers whose industry and character have developed comparative prosperity,
are considered "fair game.to cover sheer covetousness and personal
dislike"."

On 16th June the Church of Ireland Gazette reported when writing about
ethnic cleansing in Ballinasloe, that Protestants first received anonymous
letters ordering them to leave by a certain date. If they ignored the
letters, the threat was followed up by bullets through the windows and,
"bombs are thrown at his house, or his house is burnt down. If the campaign
against Protestants which has been carried out on there since the end of
last month is continued in similar intensity for a few weeks more, there
will not be a Protestant left in the place. Presbyterians and members of the
Church of Ireland, poor and well-to-do, old and young, widows and children,
all alike have suffered intimidation, persecution and expulsion. In one
case, an old man who had not left when ordered to do so was visited by a
gang, who smashed everything in his cottage - every cup and every saucer,
and then compelled him to leave the town, with his crippled son, the two of
them destitute...The list of those proscribed is added to constantly, and
every Protestant is simply waiting for his turn to come."

It went on, "…disgraceful scenes in Mullingar when the business premises of nearly all the Protestant residents were attacked…Furthermore, a large number of the Protestants throughout the County Westmeath got notice to 'quit' ".


On 21st July, the Gazette reported, "They (the clergy) have seen, in some cases, their flocks reduced to vanishing point." On 6th October it reported, "Protestants and loyalists are being expelled from their homes, which are being ransacked and destroyed…there is a very large exodus to England…undoubtedly a campaign of persecution is in progress". It added, "We are Irish and Ireland is our home." The Bishop of Cashel said on 13th October, "…the Government have been unable to prevent brutal tyranny to many of our people and wholesale destruction of property".

In Co Cork between 1920 and 1923 the IRA shot over 200 civilians "of whom over 70 (or 36%) were Protestants: five times the percentage of Protestants in the civilian population". Hart writes. He continues that "whole communities" were deported. In north Tipperary, the Church of Ireland bishop of Killaloe wrote, "There is scarcely a Protestant family in the district which has escaped molestation...Altogether a state of terrorism exists."

Kilsally

julep wrote:

from what i remember from school, the easter rising was native people fighting against invaders. the 12th of july celebrates a victory by a dutchman over the natives of this island.
i don't see a problem with any politician marching in a parade that marks an event that was the beginning of our liberation.

No the 12th of July celebrates the Glorious Revolution. The victory of a Protestant Dutch King (with a Catholic elite Guard) over the exiled Catholic King of England who was infact his father-in-law. This victory led to civil and religious liberty and also led to power being given to Parliament and the abolishion of the divine right of Kings.

suggest you read this:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/state/monarchs_leaders/william_iii_01.shtml

LovelyHurling

toffeapple wrote:

what you are saying about Republic protestants is wrong i know loads and it was never a issue..i was good friedns witha guy i worked with and never knew he was protestant until i went to a funeral and realised i was in church of ireland...no one gives a sh!t..majority of people down here dont care about religion...you are proof of this..how many bad reactions have you recieved since you have been down here???

Very few bad reactions. Despite the above posts, the point I was making was not that southern catholics or protestants pay much attention to religion, it definitely doesn't hinder anyone's opinion of other people down here as it would possibly at home.

What I was commenting on, though, was that the way certain social structures work down here. Take for example education. Many Protestant, Muslim, Hindu, and Quaker families, etc. end up sending their children to schools run by the Catholic church because there is no other option. Why are the vast majority of national schools run under one particular religioius ethos when religion is so irrlelevant?

I wouldnt like to insult anybody's religious or historical backgrounds, so I wont respond to the paranoid unionists comment. Its more to do with us having our history and others having theirs. We should all be allowed celbrate our respective heritages as much as we want, that has as much chance of happening unionists in a united ireland as the chances of the Queen parading down o connell street wearing shamrocks and leading the crowd in "Go on home you British Soldier". Although thats something even I would pay to watch

my friend scotty is protestant. i'll give him a bit of a slagging sometimes, but just just laughs and points out that catholics believe that 2,000 years ago some bint gave birth to a child and claimed to be a virgin.

Tell Scotty that if hes a Protestant thats in his religion as well.:)

Protetants are in fact Catholics by faith, in our creed we pray for our church, the Holy Catholic Chruch. We are just not roman catholics, thats all. Its funny/ weird to think how staggeringly similar the two religions are, given how much friction there has been in the past. One of my old teachers often made the point that The Church of England/ CofI has more in common with the Roman Catholic Church than we have with the other protestant religions

Flex

Kilsally wrote:

Eamon de Valera Prime Minister of the Irish Free State / Irish Republic 1930

"Justifying the sacking of a properly appointed librarian in Mayo, because, though highly qualified, she was a Protestant, de Valera argued in June 1930: "I say the people of Mayo in a county where I think 98% of the population is Catholic are justified in insisting on a Catholic librarian." He went on to widen the issue indeed, and asserted: "a Protestant doctor ought not to be appointed as a dispensary doctor in a mainly Catholic area."

Thats so incorrect. The woman in question answered an advertisement for a job as a librarian the ad specified that the successful applicant would need to be fluent in Irish

Miss Letitia Dunbar Harrison (woman in question) was recommended for the post however she was not fluent in Irish so Mayo County Council refused to appoint her to the position (despite her being recommended by the government oat the tiome if I recall correctly)

The Minister for the Environment dissolved Mayo County council after they again refused his order to appoint her.She was posted to a position in the department of defence afterwards.

The official reason was that she did not have a knowledge of the irish language as specified in the advertisement for the job.

Eamon de Valera backed the decision of mayo county council (and made the Catholic statement because Cummann na nGaedhal (sp) had been using the Catholic Church to bash de Valera prior to that)

The women was transfereed to another post in th egovernment. She appears here as the librarian in the department of the defence

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0050/D.0050.193311290023.html

And the doctor thing was because he said a dying Catholic man should have a Catholic doctor by his side (I read that article those quotes are from and it had something to do with the Last Rites)

BTW, she was never "a properly appointed librarian ", she only applied for the job and had recommendation of the government, she was NEVER SACKED, she was refused for the position. BIG difference. And de Valera only got involved AFTER the initial refusal, not before. And furthermore she was hardly 'highly qualified' for this job since she didnt meet the standard of having fluent Irish. Was that piece written by a guy named Robin Bury?

"The Church of Ireland Gazette on 22nd June 1922 reported, "Be this as it
may, the fact remains that in certain districts in Southern Ireland
inoffensive Protestants of all classes are being driven from their homes,
their shops and their farms in such numbers that many of our little
communities are in danger of being entirely wiped out. The small Protestant
minority is at the mercy of local bands of lawless men who have learnt the
use of the revolver for obtaining the property of others which they covet.
The small Protestant communities in the towns and the isolated Protestant
farmers whose industry and character have developed comparative prosperity,
are considered "fair game.to cover sheer covetousness and personal
dislike"."

On 16th June the Church of Ireland Gazette reported when writing about
ethnic cleansing in Ballinasloe, that Protestants first received anonymous
letters ordering them to leave by a certain date. If they ignored the
letters, the threat was followed up by bullets through the windows and,
"bombs are thrown at his house, or his house is burnt down. If the campaign
against Protestants which has been carried out on there since the end of
last month is continued in similar intensity for a few weeks more, there
will not be a Protestant left in the place. Presbyterians and members of the
Church of Ireland, poor and well-to-do, old and young, widows and children,
all alike have suffered intimidation, persecution and expulsion. In one
case, an old man who had not left when ordered to do so was visited by a
gang, who smashed everything in his cottage - every cup and every saucer,
and then compelled him to leave the town, with his crippled son, the two of
them destitute...The list of those proscribed is added to constantly, and
every Protestant is simply waiting for his turn to come."

It went on, "…disgraceful scenes in Mullingar when the business premises of nearly all the Protestant residents were attacked…Furthermore, a large number of the Protestants throughout the County Westmeath got notice to 'quit' ".

On 21st July, the Gazette reported, "They (the clergy) have seen, in some cases, their flocks reduced to vanishing point." On 6th October it reported, "Protestants and loyalists are being expelled from their homes, which are being ransacked and destroyed…there is a very large exodus to England…undoubtedly a campaign of persecution is in progress". It added, "We are Irish and Ireland is our home." The Bishop of Cashel said on 13th October, "…the Government have been unable to prevent brutal tyranny to many of our people and wholesale destruction of property".

Thats all from a guy named Robin Bury. Hes a southern Protestant (AFAIK) and a member of the reform movement and wants Ireland back in the UK and tried to organise an orange order march in Dublin a few years back. Just thought that might be worth a mention. These things all took place around 1922, right after the War of Independence and during the Civil War. Most if not all of those attacks would have been carried out by the anti treaty IRA and (while Im not excusing it) Id say at least some were carried out against people who had collaborated in one way or another with the British in the War of Independence. The government at the time was only after coming into existence and were facing a civil war and had to recruit an army from nothing, they werent able to stop the anti treaty IRA ransacking and looting , whether it was carried out against Catholics or Protestants. My great grandparents were Presbyterians and moved to the Free State after it was founded and never endured sectarianism ir discrimination; in fact my great grandad go t a very good civil servant job. There was no doubt intimidation against some Protestants, but it wasnt widespread or rampant by any means and wasnt carried out/supported by the government.

In Co Cork between 1920 and 1923 the IRA shot over 200 civilians "of whom over 70 (or 36%) were Protestants: five times the percentage of Protestants in the civilian population". Hart writes. He continues that "whole communities" were deported. In north Tipperary, the Church of Ireland bishop of Killaloe wrote, "There is scarcely a Protestant family in the district which has escaped molestation...Altogether a state of terrorism exists."

How many of those 70 Protestants were RIC, soldiers, landlords, collaborators etc. and how many were ordinary working people, and what about the other 130 Catholics, does that not prve they werent sectarian-motivated killings. Its also written by Bury, and once again took place during the WoI and the civil war and happened in Munster, which was held by the anti treaty IRA (the 'Munster Republic').

nlgbbbblth

Flex wrote:

Thats all from a guy named Robin Bury. Hes a southern Protestant (AFAIK) and a member of the reform movement and wants Ireland back in the UK and tried to organise an orange order march in Dublin a few years.

Yes, Robin Bury from Killiney. And his merry band of reformers.

I met him once.
A somewhat paranoid, easily offended man with some extremely skewed historical views.

cakehole

Kilsally wrote:

Fear that was justified and indeed reported and condemned in the Dail. It is certainly not the case today but back then it was a reality. But perhaps the perception lingers on.............

Eamon de Valera Prime Minister of the Irish Free State / Irish Republic 1930

"Justifying the sacking of a properly appointed librarian in Mayo, because, though highly qualified, she was a Protestant, de Valera argued in June 1930: "I say the people of Mayo in a county where I think 98% of the population is Catholic are justified in insisting on a Catholic librarian." He went on to widen the issue indeed, and asserted: "a Protestant doctor ought not to be appointed as a dispensary doctor in a mainly Catholic area."

Yeats a prominent Southern Irish Protestant TD in the Dail / Irish Parliament gave the Government a warning:

"If you show that this country, Southern Ireland, is going to be governed by Catholic ideas and by Catholic ideas alone, you will never get the North . . . You will put a wedge in the midst of this nation."

"The Church of Ireland Gazette on 22nd June 1922 reported, "Be this as it
may, the fact remains that in certain districts in Southern Ireland
inoffensive Protestants of all classes are being driven from their homes,
their shops and their farms in such numbers that many of our little
communities are in danger of being entirely wiped out. The small Protestant
minority is at the mercy of local bands of lawless men who have learnt the
use of the revolver for obtaining the property of others which they covet.
The small Protestant communities in the towns and the isolated Protestant
farmers whose industry and character have developed comparative prosperity,
are considered "fair game.to cover sheer covetousness and personal
dislike"."

On 16th June the Church of Ireland Gazette reported when writing about
ethnic cleansing in Ballinasloe, that Protestants first received anonymous
letters ordering them to leave by a certain date. If they ignored the
letters, the threat was followed up by bullets through the windows and,
"bombs are thrown at his house, or his house is burnt down. If the campaign
against Protestants which has been carried out on there since the end of
last month is continued in similar intensity for a few weeks more, there
will not be a Protestant left in the place. Presbyterians and members of the
Church of Ireland, poor and well-to-do, old and young, widows and children,
all alike have suffered intimidation, persecution and expulsion. In one
case, an old man who had not left when ordered to do so was visited by a
gang, who smashed everything in his cottage - every cup and every saucer,
and then compelled him to leave the town, with his crippled son, the two of
them destitute...The list of those proscribed is added to constantly, and
every Protestant is simply waiting for his turn to come."

It went on, "…disgraceful scenes in Mullingar when the business premises of nearly all the Protestant residents were attacked…Furthermore, a large number of the Protestants throughout the County Westmeath got notice to 'quit' ".


On 21st July, the Gazette reported, "They (the clergy) have seen, in some cases, their flocks reduced to vanishing point." On 6th October it reported, "Protestants and loyalists are being expelled from their homes, which are being ransacked and destroyed…there is a very large exodus to England…undoubtedly a campaign of persecution is in progress". It added, "We are Irish and Ireland is our home." The Bishop of Cashel said on 13th October, "…the Government have been unable to prevent brutal tyranny to many of our people and wholesale destruction of property".

In Co Cork between 1920 and 1923 the IRA shot over 200 civilians "of whom over 70 (or 36%) were Protestants: five times the percentage of Protestants in the civilian population". Hart writes. He continues that "whole communities" were deported. In north Tipperary, the Church of Ireland bishop of Killaloe wrote, "There is scarcely a Protestant family in the district which has escaped molestation...Altogether a state of terrorism exists."

Your brandishing quotes here made in the 20's and 30's. Things have changed.

justsomebloke

I think we should all go burn the British embassy for letting them think they can march down her....*slap across the face from someone else*

Sorry needed that slap I got stuck in the moment of reading about the Islamic riots about the cartoons.

Anyway sure let them march free speech and all, they have their views and others have different views but we all have the right to say what our views are, especially as our right to free speech is being challenged in other parts of the world

lil-buttons

If its gona cause hassle they shouldn be allowed to walk anywhere!
For god sakes dont they make sure to get their point across in
the northern territory. We can hear them from down here you know!
Maybe us catholics/ republicans should march up north Im sure there
would be no objections and no riots!!!!

jesus this thread is still active?

What have I started

lil-buttons

ronoc wrote:

jesus this thread is still active?

What have I started

U started a good aul opinionated debate!
Good lad ur self!!

senordingdong

LovelyHurling wrote:

end up sending their children to schools run by the Catholic church because there is no other option. Why are the vast majority of national schools run under one particular religioius ethos when religion is so irrlelevant?

In fairness, that's a problem with the education system.

I can't believe the unionist repsonses I'm reading here.