Loyalist groups to march in Dublin

murphaph · 12-01-2006 03:28PM

Excellent post LovelyHurling. If ALL Unionists and ALL (Republican!) Nationalists were as sensible as you, then Northern Ireland would be a grand place, at ease with itself. Sadly I feel your sort of person is becoming increasingly rare in NI and the more extreme sides have become even more polarised in recent years. I can't for the life of me imagine voting SF or DUP if I lived in NI but most people do. Reconciliation is clearly far from many people's minds.

Ifanything, NI is becoming sicker as a society. As for this march, let 'em march away I say. If farmers can come up from Kerry and block the streets for hours about some subsidy they're not getting then why not Unionists who have no vote down here but who have the southern government playing a part in the running of their country. Since the signing of the AIA, the Unionists have had every right to march here.

In this day and age, there is no point in a (politically) united Ireland. Closer economic ties would probably be desrable more for NI than RoI as the British Exchequer begins to make more and more cuts in places it can get away with it (NI predominantly).

flogen · 12-01-2006 03:34PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

This isnt my opinion, but Ive heard it expressed a lot especially over the Christmas break at home: The true meaning of the word nationalist, it is sometimes forgotten, applies to Unionists just as much as those who vote SF/SDLP. The majority of the people of the North have the right to be allied to the country they perceive themselves to have originated from. The population difference is marginal of course, but many unionists find it frustrating that Irish passports are issued to Northern citizens and just feel that in general, a lot of leeway is being given to the SF supporters (yes I know not all nationalists are SF) just because the IRA has paused activity... when the UUP has been demonising loyalist crimes all along. Suddenly people feel as if its as if the unionists are the bad boys and the republican crimes have been forgotten.

Given the situation in the North, I think every citizen has a right to be allied to the country they perceive themselves to have originated from, not just the majority. I don't think a passport is anything more than a shallow gesture and Unionists shouldn't be too concerned about it. Why would they be?
And I think that SF hope people will forget their (or the IRA's) crimes, and both London and Dublin are hoping people will get past them; not because they think it's all ok now but because they see it as the only route to progression and want to get it going asap. I personally don't blame the UUP for being suspicious of SF, they have every right to be. If that means they want to wait out and see how things pan out in the next year or two it will be bad for NI but in the long run good for it. Assuming they plan on sharing power at some point and under some conditions.

After SF/IRA announced they were ceasing activity, Bertie Ahern came on BBC Newsnight saying he was in favour of a united Ireland. How do you think Unionists, so used to thinking of this man as a sensible man, understanding and friendly in his dealings with the unionist community of the north, how do you think they felt?

I don't think this is the first time he's said this, he is from the self professed Republican Party and every political party in the Dail has a united Ireland as part of their agenda. Some more than others, but FF are sensible enough to know that what they'd like to see isn't going to be a reality for some time.

The Orange Order, an organisation whose actions I personally dont like, are coming here to fight back at what they regard as this new movement. Maybe fight back is a poor choice of words, they want to underline the North's indentity and her roots... just like Irishmen and women who march in Sydney and New York each Patricks Day.

Fair comparison. As long as they come to celebrate their heritage and not encourage tension, I'm by no means opposed to it.

Im not defending them, but if Im in town, I'll be watching the march. I hope most people have liberated themselves from the opinion that Ulster is an innocent entity being held at ransom by a herd of foreign men. I often think of Ulster as a child borne of a topsy turvy romance between London and Dublin. Neither can keep the north to themselves, and while it is a part of Britain, Ulster doesn't belong to Ireland. es a big boy now. Surely this was the whole crux of Good Friday.

I don't think London wants rid of NI, but who could blame any politician outside the fold to be tired of the fights. The fact is that both sides are as childish, ignorant and arrogant as each other and until they both sit down and realise the cold hard facts (NI has large minority of catholics/republicans and they should be respected as equals - NI is a part of the UK and will remain the same until everyone agrees otherwise, not when the catholics get a win by a technicality).

BigArnie · 12-01-2006 03:58PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

they want to underline the North's... roots

What? You mean as part of a united Ireland for thousands and thousands of years before it was occupied and eventually segregated? Fair enough

murphaph · 12-01-2006 04:15PM

BigArnie wrote:

What? You mean as part of a united Ireland for thousands and thousands of years before it was occupied and eventually segregated? Fair enough

Maybe you're joking but if you're not, perhaps you could give specify time periods when Ireland was politically united (apart from 1800-1922) as a single entity?

In truth, this island has since it was first inhabited, been an island of waring factions and tribes.

el tel · 12-01-2006 04:18PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

... when the UUP has been demonising loyalist crimes all along.

They must have been doing this by telepathy during their usual deafening silences

R0ot · 12-01-2006 04:21PM

Lump wrote:

WTF! They can't march in the republic... I think the Republicans should go march in London, I'm sure that'd go down well.

John

First off Lump marches do occur in the south by the Orange order, they just don't show up as much on tv or in the papers because they go down peacefully. I cant see this march going the same way though, but the reason the marches in the North (or occupied teritory) get so violent is due to the mass amount of loyalist yobs and activists as well as the republican side. Id say 90% of the people that cause the violence in these marches don't even have a clue why the marches are taking place or why there is so much hatred between both sides. I mean ffs i know a few orange men that totally agree with the movement for united ireland.

Atomic Pineapple · 12-01-2006 04:29PM

murphaph wrote:

Maybe you're joking but if you're not, perhaps you could give specify time periods when Ireland was politically united (apart from 1800-1922) as a single entity?

In truth, this island has since it was first inhabited, been an island of waring factions and tribes.

yes, fighting over land and superiority, not finding to split the country into different countries the island of Ireland was technically united as a full island and not split into two as it is today

as for unionists marching in dublin, ya can say what ya like about there right to or whatever but if they do then i'd expect a massive riot and lots of clashes, it wouldnt be pretty and it wouldnt help the peace process at all

LovelyHurling · 12-01-2006 04:46PM

draffodx wrote:

as for unionists marching in dublin, ya can say what ya like about there right to or whatever but if they do then i'd expect a massive riot and lots of clashes, it wouldnt be pretty and it wouldnt help the peace process at all

The orange order have a very stubborn attitude to the peace process. they take the view that theyre only walking down a street and if people do something violent in return then that's off their own back. They can take the literal meaning of things to the line unfortunately`, but nobody is going out to get a smack. Look, the whole reason theyre going down to Dublin is to underline that NI is full of people who have their own, non Irish heritage, not just republicans. They hope this wull cause some public debate (like here) about Ulster suddenly being bombarded with talks of a United ireland ever since an illegal army took a break from what it should never have been doing in the first place. Its also a protest by victims of the troubles against SF-IRA participation in the Dail, an institution which cant be taken seriously by all Northern citizens because of this fact.

See how you feel about Unionists marching down here? Thats how a lot of Unionists feel about "Ireland" (Irish govt involvement) going up there. The SFIRA decision to relax made the term republican and united ireland sit much easier with Southern politicians, who decided to get the republican bandwagon out of the museum, and tbh unionists feel threatened by that. Rightly so, its quite a large opposition for a small political movement to run against.

Will this help the peace process? Probably not. Will it hinder a push for a United Ireland? yes i think it will. Flogen I think youre right in what you say, just wondering whther this was Freudian?!:D .... Some time?????

Some more than others, but FF are sensible enough to know that what they'd like to see isn't going to be a reality for some time.

Just like to point out that although my loyalties would tend to lie with unionism, like all reasonable people North South and East, Im looking forward to seeing the DUP, UUP and SF and SDLP battling it out across the Assembly room in Stormont. Better economic ties would be great both for RoI and NI, but Ireland now is about as united as it should ever get

murphaph · 12-01-2006 05:52PM

draffodx wrote:

yes, fighting over land and superiority, not finding to split the country into different countries the island of Ireland was technically united as a full island and not split into two as it is today

Your post is complete nonsense. You readily admit the island was dominated by tribes fighting with one another for territory and then claim it was united :rolleyes: You are confusing geographical unity with political unity. Ireland was only very briefly unified politically before british rule and i was about a thousand years ago-didn't last long either. Ireland was in fact split it many more than 2 kingdoms and tribal areas for thousands of years, it's only slightly less unified politically today than it was from 1800-1922.

BigArnie · 12-01-2006 07:00PM

murphaph wrote:

Maybe you're joking but if you're not, perhaps you could give specify time periods when Ireland was politically united (apart from 1800-1922) as a single entity?

In truth, this island has since it was first inhabited, been an island of waring factions and tribes.

Ah right, I see. So that makes it a legitimate target for oppression and imperialism then? Gotcha. :rolleyes:

shepthedog · 12-01-2006 07:44PM

Back to original post, does anyone have any up to date info on this? Like when its going to happen or even if it is?

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-01-2006 08:05PM

murphaph wrote:

Maybe you're joking but if you're not, perhaps you could give specify time periods when Ireland was politically united (apart from 1800-1922) as a single entity?

Um, the island has always been a single entity until December 1920 when the British partitioned it. It may have never been an independent united single entity, but it has always been a single entity and for the record, even when Ireland was part of the UK, it was always treated differently from the rest of the UK. For example, Ireland had a Lord Lieutenant.

LovelyHurling · 12-01-2006 08:44PM

shepthedog wrote:

Back to original post, does anyone have any up to date info on this? Like when its going to happen or even if it is?

Yes shep, march is going ahead not sure of the date. I hear they decided to wear lilies or some sort of flower instead of sashes, which will hopefully be more acceptable to Dubs. Not all bad see, and tbh I really think this march is well intended

murphaph · 12-01-2006 08:56PM

BigArnie wrote:

Ah right, I see. So that makes it a legitimate target for oppression and imperialism then? Gotcha. :rolleyes:

So you can't provide a timefrime prior to british rule in Ireland when the island was united as a single political entity. A simple "no" would have sufficed but I suppose it's a case of 'never letting an opportunity to say "imperialism" go by'. By the way-who is being oppressed because of partition today?

Freelancer · 12-01-2006 09:06PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Um, the island has always been a single entity until December 1920 when the British partitioned it. It may have never been an independent united single entity,

Oh look semantic quibbling. Whether the Island has always been a single entity in the same Europe has been a single entity, in a geographical sense. However just because its a geographicaly connected doesn't mean its "single entity".

but it has always been a single entity and for the record, even when Ireland was part of the UK, it was always treated differently from the rest of the UK. For example, Ireland had a Lord Lieutenant.

Thats due to a politcal necessity more than anything, neither wales nor Scotland really revolted in any sense, during the same period, a Lord Lieutenant was necessary to mainatin order.

murphaph · 12-01-2006 09:07PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Um, the island has always been a single entity until December 1920 when the British partitioned it. It may have never been an independent united single entity, but it has always been a single entity and for the record, even when Ireland was part of the UK, it was always treated differently from the rest of the UK. For example, Ireland had a Lord Lieutenant.

You're totally confusing geographic and political entities. Ireland as an island is united today and has been since the end of the last ice age. Ireland was only ever united politically during the period when Britain ruled the entire island (aside from a brief, but not universally accepted period roughly 1000 years ago). Politically, Ireland was made up of many kings and tribes, never a united land. Why are people so uncomfortable with this? It's not at all uncommon-even 'strong' countries like Germany only united politically in the last 200 years, prior to that it was made up of all sorts of kingdoms and principalities (the last king of Bavaria was still on his throne at the turn of the last century!). By the way-every county of the whole UK (and empire) had a Lord-Lieutenant, indeed even today there are dozens of Lords-Lieutenant (Northern Ireland has eight of them I believe).

pork99 · 12-01-2006 09:32PM

Lump wrote:

WTF! They can't march in the republic... I think the Republicans should go march in London, I'm sure that'd go down well.

John

Maybe you're not old enough to remember but that has already happened because there were regular "troops out" marches and rallies in London back in the 80s organised by Sinn Fein and/or their Labour Party or other left wing sympathisers. I was over there in the late 80s and witnessed one or two.

I cannot remember ever seeing or hearing of Orange marches in London, Liverpool maybe, up in Scotland certainly. However the Orange Order simply isn't an English thing - I'm sure there's a certain BNP element who sympathise with them but it certainly isn't mainstream.

Like most people in the Republic I couldn't give a flying fornication where the Orange Order goes as long as they behave themselves. If they are looking for trouble I'd be more worried about the "ooh ahh up the 'RA" skanger element who might rise to the bait. If they get hassle they will only want to come back - this is a case of "ignore them and they will go away".

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-01-2006 10:27PM

Freeelancer wrote:

Whether the Island has always been a single entity in the same Europe has been a single entity, in a geographical sense. However just because its a geographicaly connected doesn't mean its "single entity.

Grammatically, this statement is appalling. Would you mind clarifying please?

Freelancer wrote:

Thats due to a politcal necessity more than anything, neither wales nor Scotland really revolted in any sense, during the same period, a Lord Lieutenant was necessary to mainatin order.

Um, what's your point?

murphaph wrote:

You're totally confusing geographic and political entities.

I'm not.

murphaph wrote:

Ireland was only ever united politically during the period when Britain ruled the entire island (aside from a brief, but not universally accepted period roughly 1000 years ago). Politically, Ireland was made up of many kings and tribes, never a united land.

What qualifies as a 'united land' then in your eyes? Was Ireland politically united around say 1914?

murphaph wrote:

By the way-every county of the whole UK (and empire) had a Lord-Lieutenant, indeed even today there are dozens of Lords-Lieutenant (Northern Ireland has eight of them I believe).

Throughout the entire period of the union (1800-1922), the existence of a 'Government of Ireland' was recognised. The Lord Lieutenant, as representative of the sovereign, was formal head of this government.

BigArnie · 12-01-2006 10:48PM

murphaph wrote:

So you can't provide a timefrime prior to british rule in Ireland when the island was united as a single political entity.

Are you suggesting that the British empire had the right to invade and occupy Ireland because it wasn't a single political entity? Spurious reasoning by anyones standards. The same kind of arrogant attitude that's caused so many innocents to die over the years. Just look at Palestine. "Ah sure they're only tribesmen, we can take their land and do whatever the f**k we want"

:rolleyes:

murphaph wrote:

A simple "no" would have sufficed

Not that simple. Being from the North, I thought you'd have realised that.

murphaph wrote:

but I suppose it's a case of 'never letting an opportunity to say "imperialism" go by'.

Are you suggesting that the British don't have a history of empire building (and violent oppression for that matter)?

murphaph wrote:

By the way-who is being oppressed because of partition today?

I don't know. Would they be the same group of rabble-rousing malcontents who can't put the past behind them and move on? Or do they still think it's okay to lash rocks at schoolgirls because they're the ones feeling oppressed all of a sudden?

At the end of the day, let's agree to actually agree! Many up North don't want to be part of the United Ireland and most people down South don't want to be part of a United Ireland either. Too much baggage and hatred. Don't mind Bertie, he'll be voted out at the next election and you can keep bitching and moaning up there safe in the knowledge that your Republican neightbours are enjoying one of the strongest economies in the world.

flogen · 12-01-2006 10:55PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

Just like to point out that although my loyalties would tend to lie with unionism, like all reasonable people North South and East, Im looking forward to seeing the DUP, UUP and SF and SDLP battling it out across the Assembly room in Stormont. Better economic ties would be great both for RoI and NI, but Ireland now is about as united as it should ever get

I agree, more co-operation is needed. I'm not talking about sharing government responsibilities but setting up ties between each country that would be a given under any other circumstance. We share a border, and if we work together it will make things much better for everyone.
As for your feelings on a United Ireland, you're entitled to them and you should be respected for them. I personally would like to see a United Ireland but not in some ignorant Wolfe Tones-song kind of a way, but through actual agreement and co-operation. I think the best situation would be if a majority of Unionists and not just NI voters in general were in favour of unity, and as we all know, something like that isn't going to happen soon if ever at all.
I don't think some United Ireland supporters realise just how much would be involved in such a change. Even if every single person on the island agreed 100% to a united Ireland, it wouldn't just be a case of whipping the maps out and going at the border with an eraser. It would be a huge and extremely delicate process.

LovelyHurling · 12-01-2006 10:55PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

of a 'Government of Ireland' was recognised. The Lord Lieutenant, as representative of the sovereign, was formal head of this government.

Same way as there used to be a high King of Ireland, back in the day. But culturally and socially, Ulster and Kerry were very much seperated 1800 - 1922. I think thats all that people are saying, even if they did have the one governor. What was then a much more thinly veiled divison has now given rise to Ireland and Northern Ireland, a different place.

Much more importantly, Mr Nice Guy why were you not at UCD Boards beers?

murphaph · 12-01-2006 11:05PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Grammatically, this statement is appalling. Would you mind clarifying please?

If you can't understand his post because it's missing an apostrophe or two I'd be worried. Despite his poor punctuation his post is perfectly intelligible to the rest of us.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

What qualifies as a 'united land' then in your eyes? Was Ireland politically united around say 1914?

Yes, insofar as it was a single political entity. No country including our own 26 county republic, can claim to be a 'united land' in the manner you're referring to as there will always be political dissent (In 2006 for example, Republican Sinn Fein totaly reject the Dail, the Gardai and all the institutions of government of my country).

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Throughout the entire period of the union (1800-1922), the existence of a 'Government of Ireland' was recognised. The Lord Lieutenant, as representative of the sovereign, was formal head of this government.

And there were Lords-lieutenant all over the Uited Kingdom (and still are). You claimed Ireland had a Lord-lieutenant and implied the rest of the UK did not, which was and is factually incorrect.

Mr.Nice Guy · 12-01-2006 11:06PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

Same way as there used to be a high King of Ireland, back in the day. But culturally and socially, Ulster and Kerry were very much seperated 1800 - 1922. I think thats all that people are saying, even if they did have the one governor. What was then a much more thinly veiled divison has now given rise to Ireland and Northern Ireland, a different place.

Well culturally I would have more in common with someone from Belfast than I would some rural chap down in Galway.

LovelyHurling wrote:

Much more importantly, Mr Nice Guy why were you not at UCD Boards beers?

Forgot all about it. Was it today?

senordingdong · 12-01-2006 11:10PM

This is turning my stomach.

LovelyHurling · 12-01-2006 11:10PM

flogen wrote:

As for your feelings on a United Ireland, you're entitled to them and you should be respected for them. I personally would like to see a United Ireland but not in some ignorant Wolfe Tones-song kind of a way, but through actual agreement and co-operation. I think the best situation would be if a majority of Unionists and not just NI voters in general were in favour of unity, and as we all know, something like that isn't going to happen soon if ever at all.

Yeah we both have different opinions on a united Ireland, which is fine... and getting back to the march, I think that the point you have just mentioned is why theyre going to dublin. In hope it will serve to remind people more of the (incompatible) cultural differences between NI and the south, rather than bring trouble or harm to either side.

MNG You might have more in common with a Belfastman now, but pre 1900s Ulster had a lot more Unionists and was socially and economically on a par with the rest of Britain. What you might call "the invisible south" had preserved her traditionally more Irish identity. Anyway thats off topic, and I dont understand it well enough to debate it...

murphaph · 12-01-2006 11:19PM

BigArnie wrote:

Are you suggesting that the British empire had the right to invade and occupy Ireland because it wasn't a single political entity? Spurious reasoning by anyones standards. The same kind of arrogant attitude that's caused so many innocents to die over the years. Just look at Palestine. "Ah sure they're only tribesmen, we can take their land and do whatever the f**k we want"

:rolleyes:

I never said any such thing. I just pointed out your error in your mistaken belief that Ireland was politically united, prior to the beginnings of British rule on the island. Primary school history teaches us otherwise! By the way, the British Empire didn't exist when the Anglo-Normans first arrived on our shores.

BigArnie wrote:

Are you suggesting that the British don't have a history of empire building (and violent oppression for that matter)?

Nope. I'm actually able to see the grey areas unlike some on here who see everything in B&W.

BigArnie wrote:

I don't know. Would they be the same group of rabble-rousing malcontents who can't put the past behind them and move on? Or do they still think it's okay to lash rocks at schoolgirls because they're the ones feeling oppressed all of a sudden?

And the members of the OO would claim exactly the same about their kids getting lashed out of it when walking up the Crumlin Road (the main road from Belfast City Centre to a protestant estate called Ligoniel. It's an A road, not some housing estate before you go on about marching through people's front gardens. We can do this all day but you implied british oppression, that's oppression by the british state or simply, state oppression. Now, Northern Ireland has one of the most highly regulated and scrutinised police forces in the world. The republic would do well to instigate a Garda ombudsman with the power of Nuala O'Loan's office-she or her staff can walk into any police station and demand any documentation without notice! In the republic the Gardai still investigate claims against the Gardai. A certain Richard Barron might know about state oppression, and that was in Donegal-RoI.

BigArnie wrote:

At the end of the day, let's agree to actually agree! Many up North don't want to be part of the United Ireland and most people down South don't want to be part of a United Ireland either.

Totally agree.

BigArnie wrote:

Too much baggage and hatred. Don't mind Bertie, he'll be voted out at the next election and you can keep bitching and moaning up there safe in the knowledge that your Republican neightbours are enjoying one of the strongest economies in the world.

<---Look at my username<---, I'm from D15! Born and bred in the Pale

senordingdong · 12-01-2006 11:34PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

In hope it will serve to remind people more of the (incompatible) cultural differences between NI and the south, rather than bring trouble or harm to either side.

It will do nothing of the sort. It will incite hatred and furhter division, and how pathetic they chose to do it now that Sinn Fein have laid down arms and are getting their way.

LovelyHurling wrote:

What you might call "the invisible south" had preserved her traditionally more Irish identity.

What bugs me is why these people want to turn their back on their identity to swear allegiance to a queen and kingdom that does nothing for them.

LovelyHurling · 12-01-2006 11:39PM

senordingdong wrote:

What bugs me is why these people want to turn their back on their identity to swear allegiance to a queen and kingdom that does nothing for them.

Nobody wants to insult anybody here, mud slinging matches are pointless and I dont question your allegience to Mary McAleese same as you shouldnt question my familiy's allegiences, be they to The Queen or to a big statue in our back garden named Bob.

Unionism doesn't involve turning your back on your identity, it is the same kind of nationalism that republicans are and can be proud of. So lets not get into an argument about it, agreed?

Atrocity · 12-01-2006 11:40PM

At the end of the day, it's just gonna be a few hundred old men with red faces and high waistlines marching around looking like tools. Let them come.

Dave! · 12-01-2006 11:43PM

LovelyHurling wrote:

a big statue in our back garden named Bob.

HEIL BOB!

Loyalist groups to march in Dublin

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