Decentralisation

The_Conductor · 17-09-2004 01:09PM

Ok- synopsis:

Fewer than 1 in 7 Dublin based civil servants have volunteered to decentralise with their jobs to rural locations.

Numbers applying for decentralisation are scewed- there are far more lower grades applying for decentralisation than executive grades (EO and higher), with far more applications than positions available for some locations (notably those near Dublin). (Meaning the total number of applications includes double counting of applicants who are applying for the same jobs.......-there is a large body of lower ranked civil servants competing with each other for a limited number of decentralised locations, many of them in the vicinity of Dublin........)

Also of note: Of those agreeing to decentralise- almost half of the applicants are already decentralised, and merely expressing a preference to relocate to another part of the country (and even there two thirds of them are expressing wishes to leave their current government departments)......

All in all, the most god-damned awful mess imaginable...........

S.

ishmael whale · 17-09-2004 02:38PM

Doing a quick count the figure in Table 5 showing 3200 Dublin based civil servants applying for the new locations breaks down as about 1500 opting for Drogheda, Trim, Newbridge and the other Kildare locations. Drogheda on its own accounts for 600 applications. The rest of Leinster gets about 800 applications. Ulster gets 200 applications, 100 of which are accounted for by Cavan. The combined Munster locations get about 400 and Connaught about 300 (i.e. half of what Drogheda gets on its own).

What’s the point in them brazening it out? The policy makes no sense, no-one really wants it, the 52 locations would get more benefit from a branch of Aldi opening up and, anyway, they just don’t have the numbers.

Or does regional development hinge on moving civil servants from Nenagh to Roscrea.

pete · 17-09-2004 03:56PM

won't someone please think of wexford?

The_Conductor · 17-09-2004 04:10PM

pete wrote:

won't someone please think of wexford?

Stop baiting Arcadegame

ishmael whale · 17-09-2004 04:25PM

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/09/17/story166969.html

There’s an amount of coverage saying that 9,500 Dublin-based civil and public servants have applied. Sometimes the same article (such as the one above) goes on to say 3,700 are Dublin based and 3,350 are in provincial locations. 3,700 plus 3,350 gives a national figure of 7,050.

Without even looking at any other information, it should be possible to notice that either:

3,700 Dublin based civil servants have applied, and the figure of 9,500 ‘Dublin based’ is wrong or

7,050 civil servants nationally have applied, which means the figure of 9,500 is still wrong even if it was meant to refer to all civil servants, not just Dublin based ones (i.e. who are the extra 2,450).

It just shows how easy it is to start a spin - no-one seems to read the thing twice.

pete · 17-09-2004 04:27PM

actually it looks like Wexford may get their pound of flesh - 249 Environment jobs available there, with 224 applicants

Unfortunately only 16 of the 224 applicants currently work in Environment..... ah, but sure why worry about service levels. The other 208 are probably quick learners.

The_Conductor · 17-09-2004 04:32PM

ishmael whale wrote:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/09/17/story166969.html

There’s an amount of coverage saying that 9,500 Dublin-based civil and public servants have applied. Sometimes the same article (such as the one above) goes on to say 3,700 are Dublin based and 3,350 are in provincial locations. 3,700 plus 3,350 gives a national figure of 7,050.

Without even looking at any other information, it should be possible to notice that either:

3,700 Dublin based civil servants have applied, and the figure of 9,500 ‘Dublin based’ is wrong or

7,050 civil servants nationally have applied, which means the figure of 9,500 is still wrong even if it was meant to refer to all civil servants, not just Dublin based ones (i.e. who are the extra 2,450).

It just shows how easy it is to start a spin - no-one seems to read the thing twice.

Was talking to a journalist down there a few mins ago- they'll have their update pulled and readjusted with the correct info shortly

The_Conductor · 17-09-2004 04:39PM

pete wrote:

actually it looks like Wexford may get their pound of flesh - 249 Environment jobs available there, with 224 applicants

Unfortunately only 16 of the 224 applicants currently work in Environment..... ah, but sure why worry about service levels. The other 208 are probably quick learners.

And according to my calculations- a goodly number of them had better be suitable for immediate promotion- almost all of the applicants are from the lower grades, there are very few managers interested in Wexford........

A very obvious oversight is no accurate breakdown of the numbers of positions available by grade in the different locations, and the numbers of people in the different grades applying for them.......

Actually, come to think of it- that wasn't an oversight- they'd only be openly admitting defeat if they gave out that information.........

S.

ishmael whale · 17-09-2004 05:10PM

Question for debate: large sections of the Irish media can’t count and urgently need a smack in the head.

http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=61246

Civil servant decentralisation programme appears on track
16:48 Friday September 17th 2004

"Plans to decentralise 10,000 civil and public servants appear to be on track.
Figures from the Department of Finance show 9,500 civil servants have applied to be re-located to Departments in the regions. ……….. "

cyclopath2001 · 17-09-2004 06:17PM

Even the figures for staff offering to move with their own department should be questioned:

Some departments have quite a wide range of work and just because you work in a particular department does not mean you'd be any better at doing a specialised job in the same department than somebody from outside of the department.

For example, Kildare needs 380 IT specialists, of 114 volunteers, only 76 people from Revenue have volunteered. No figure is available for how many of the volunteers have any IT skills or experience.

pete · 17-09-2004 06:51PM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Even the figures for staff offering to move with their own department should be questioned:

Some departments have quite a wide range of work and just because you work in a particular department does not mean you'd be any better at doing a specialised job in the same department than somebody from outside of the department.

For example, Kildare needs 380 IT specialists, of 114 volunteers, only 76 people from Revenue have volunteered. No figure is available for how many of the volunteers have any IT skills or experience.

It's a case of tune in next week, same caf time, same caf channel, apparently.

ishmael whale · 18-09-2004 09:44PM

I'm developing an unnatural affection for the Examiner's well known Dublin mindset. Once again, they have pretty much hit the nail on the head. The only thing that might improve this article is pointing out more clearly that only something of the order of 3200 Dublin based civil servants have actually expressed an interest in the new locations. There simply aren't 9,000 expressions of interest in 'decamping Dublin', or anything like that figure.

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/opinion/Full_Story/did-sggunhhghYN0osgDQQ5wn3uAIg.asp
18/09/04
Decentralisation plan - Expression of interest is merely that

"........ The carrot of so many State employees scattered from the capital ..... failed dismally to win the only numbers game that means anything to politicians. ... [the local and European] elections produced a backlash against the Government, especially for Fianna Fáil, that was unprecedented.

Ostensibly, Mr McCreevy is having more luck with his decentralisation project....... but the menu of destinations is being cherry-picked to an unbalanced degree. Neither does it not mean that so many thousands want to evacuate Dublin, because 3,350 of them are already living in provincial centres........

Newbridge and Drogheda are the favoured towns for departing public servants, but not so much Waterford, Donegal, Cavan and Portlaoise. Obviously, the preponderance of those who are inclined to move are influenced by the length of the umbilical cord from Dublin.

Mr McCreevy said the level of applications to date proved there was a real appetite for the Government’s decentralisation, but it is patently a very selective appetite............. the figure produced yesterday of 9,200 staff expressing an interest in decamping Dublin is still just an 'interest' and it is premature for the Government to imagine that Mr McCreevy’s target will be met."

cyclopath2001 · 18-09-2004 10:36PM

The Iriish Independent is much more optimistic than the Examiner, possiby because they've never let the facts get in the way of a whatever story its masters want written. They totally ignored the number of applicants who do not work in Dublin or the liklihood that someone who applies for Drogheda & is disappointed cannot be counted on to go to a less favoured location. The Indo makes plenty of assertions of its own without offering any reason why we should believe them:

"THE Civil Service decentralisation plan that had seemed to be such a disaster just a few months ago may yet come right. Certainly the figures issued yesterday give new hope.

They show there has been a 60pc jump in the numbers applying. By last night, 9,200 civil servants had registered choices of where they would prefer to go, just short of the 9,600 target.

That is a remarkable turnaround. Clearly, this is an idea that required time to take root and win acceptance. There are difficult personal issues involved. But the figures show there is a growing realisation that life beyond the Pale may offer an attractive lifestyle that will never be available in the overcrowded capital.

However, while the plan is now back on track, there are still problems. The vast majority of those applying are junior staff and many of them are thought to be applying only to register their least unacceptable destinations, to avoid being sent elsewhere when decentralisation actually happens.

Even so, this does indicate a willingness at least to contemplate moving. As time goes on, those involved should become more comfortable with the idea, especially if some incentives are offered. The same should apply at senior level.

The Government has €90m from the sale of former State offices which has been earmarked to assist decentralisation. Although the move was supposed to be voluntary and therefore without compensation, financial incentives may be needed to make it all happen. If so, it will be money well spent.

Many of the civil servants involved came from the country originally and already know that life outside Dublin can be very good indeed. There are thousands of stressed private sector office workers in Dublin who would jump at such a chance tomorrow if they could. "

uncivilservant · 19-09-2004 01:44AM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

The Government has €90m from the sale of former State offices which has been earmarked to assist decentralisation.

From the Irish Examiner:

THE cost of providing 53 new office buildings for the decentralisation plan could amount to more than €1.5 billion over 25 years.

...

Although the construction of offices to house 10,300 decentralised staff will be funded by the private sector, the Government is planning to lease the properties back at an estimated cost of €50m to €60m annually.

http://www.uncivilservant.com/article.php?id=272

cyclopath2001 · 19-09-2004 10:27AM

No doubt, the rents on the buildings will be going into the local community and not to Dublin-based property companies?

The_Conductor · 19-09-2004 10:47AM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

No doubt, the rents on the buildings will be going into the local community and not to Dublin-based property companies?

Highly doubtful.......
As you are no doubt aware, there has already been fallouts over some of the "private developers" (aka the brother of the director for elections for the PDs in Laois-Offaly who is behind the building of the new offices for the Department of Agriculture and Food in Portlaoise...........)

While the sentiment may be altruistic in nature- just how long will it be before the intent turns into some other monstrosity on the ground?

There are a very limited number of contractors in the country who are capable of construction of office blocks and related structures to a high standard and in reasonable timeframes.

The reason the government went with a public private partnership arrangement (20 year leases and options to purchase at the end of the lease, with the builder in charge of upkeep for 20 years) was to ensure that any snags that occur would be dealt with by the constructors, and no short cuts would be taken- as they would only come back to haunt the constructor at a later point in time. The DoF are learning, slowly- but they are getting there......

S.

cyclopath2001 · 19-09-2004 04:21PM

From today's Sunday Business Post:
By Susan Mitchell

"The supply of new homes will slow dramatically because of an increase in the levies that builders must pay to local authorities, an economist has warned.
.....
For example, the developer of a 2,000 sq ft house in Kildare will pay €18,000 under the new guidelines.
....
Some local authorities have increased their charges by as much as 300 per cent."

ishmael whale · 20-09-2004 10:25AM

cyclopath2001 wrote:

The Iriish Independent is much more optimistic than the Examiner, possiby because they've never let the facts get in the way of a whatever story its masters want written. They totally ignored the number of applicants who do not work in Dublin or the liklihood that someone who applies for Drogheda & is disappointed cannot be counted on to go to a less favoured location. The Indo makes plenty of assertions of its own without offering any reason why we should believe them:

Clearly the Indo’s coverage makes absolutely no sense. In particular their statement that offering financial incentives would be ‘money well spent’. How could anyone regard paying people to fill up space in poorly located offices as a priority?

uncivilservant · 24-09-2004 06:52PM

Well surprise surprise - Finance have held back on releasing the breakdown of CAF applications by grade until next week. Are they hoping we'll forget?

In other news:

Stung by criticisms that the decentralisation scheme proposed by outgoing Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy was unworkable, ministers seized on the increased number of applications to explore how one or two "showpiece" moves could be accelerated.

...

While the focus is likely to centre on locations within striking distance of the capital, it is thought at least one other further location such as Kerry or Cavan will be targeted to ensure balance.

http://uncivilservant.com/article.php?id=279

NewDubliner · 25-09-2004 11:27AM

There's a long way to go yet, the spin doctors are still talking about putting 'bums on seats' rather than matching skills to jobs and working out the costs and benefits of the scheme.

The much-trumpeted oversubscription of Newbridge does'nt include trivial details such as how much it will cost in staff-churn and retraining to make it happen nor any precision about any benefit to the area itself.

If the cost of each person's move in lost productivity and retraining costs is equal to one year's salary and if two people have to change jobs to facilitate each move to Newbridge, then I estimate the staff costs to be around 27 million euro.

Assuming nobody moves house, there will be no net economic benefit to Newbridge for this cost & the cost of acquiring the accomodation. Any traffic benefit to Dublin will disappear once the corresponding Dublin offices are re-let.

For Kildare, it's worse, the cost of laying off hundreds of Dublin IT staff and replacing them with Kildare people will be much higher.

Ek.

The_Conductor · 25-09-2004 11:35AM

Not necessarily- if a comprehensive evaluation of the skillsets of those who are being decentralised was ever undertaken there are a large number of very underemployed people at present.

E.g. EOs who came in on open competions into admin positions are actually precluded from taking IT positions (regardless of their qualifications). I am personally aware of a large group of people who have degrees in Computer Science, MCPs and between 3 and 6 years IT experience sitting down at desks processing forms, because of the bureaucratic bull**** that refuses to match people to their skillsets.

This is one big mess......

NewDubliner · 25-09-2004 05:21PM

>>I am personally aware of a large group of people who have degrees in Computer Science, MCPs and between 3 and 6 years IT experience sitting down at desks processing forms, because of the bureaucratic bull**** that refuses to match people to their skillsets.<<

How come they didn't volunteer to move to Kildare?

The_Conductor · 25-09-2004 09:55PM

NewDubliner wrote:

How come they didn't volunteer to move to Kildare?

Most of us have done so- but not to IT positions- as we are ineligible to apply for them, regardless of our qualifications....... The only reason we have applied for Kildare at all, is as the least worst option, ideally none of us want to move, lobbing in Kildare (or Drogheda) was a pre-emptive application- so that we do not end up in the middle of nowhere. Obviously, most people have absolutely no intention of upping and moving- but thats only rehashing what you already know......

S.

NewDubliner · 25-09-2004 10:33PM

smccarrick wrote:

Most of us have done so- but not to IT positions- as we are ineligible to apply for them, regardless of our qualifications
S.

What were the eligibility criteria?

I saw that there might be a selection process, but they just seemed to be inviting anyone with an interest in working in Kildare & didn't indicate any specific IT job descriptions.

The_Conductor · 25-09-2004 10:46PM

NewDubliner wrote:

What were the eligibility criteria?

I saw that there might be a selection process, but they just seemed to be inviting anyone with an interest in working in Kildare & didn't indicate any specific IT job descriptions.

Eligibility criteria at present are that you can only move to a position at the same grade. The IT positions have allowances attached to them (as IT staff were being poached previously). Thus an EO in the IT section might be denoted as EO JSA (being Executive Officer - Junior Systems Analyst). Someone who entered the service as an EO into an administrative position (regardless of their qualifications) would not be eligible to apply for one of these positions. For the most part the IT staff seem to be looking for "Head-to-Head" transfers- i.e. transfers into other government departments (that preferably are not moving) into a position which carries similar allowances.

A big problem in the civil service is a total and utter ignorance as to what aptitudes (and/or qualifications) staff in general might possess). Thus someone with a masters in an area relevant to the remit of the government department he or she might be a member of- could be stuck behind a desk doing menial administrative work, when they would be far more valuable were they correctly assigned to a task related to their particular skillset.

I have queried this with both the Civil Service Commission and also the Personnel Officer from one government department previously. The Civil Service Commission stated that in the past it almost seemed that there was a policy not to place graduates in departments related to their expertise- but that nowadays, where possible, they attempted to match up recruits as best they could. When assigned to a particular department, it is however then at the discretion of the personnel officer as to what duty they be assigned to. The personnel officer I was talking to stated that he actually had a policy of delibertly not keeping CVs on peoples files (ahhhhh ignorance is bliss......)

Nnnngggggggg!!!!!!

NewDubliner · 26-09-2004 08:47AM

I think anyone could have applied for the IT areas. Government just wants to fill the quotas. If the staff cannot do the work, it''ll be done for them by off-shore contractors. As long as an FF Minister gets his photo taken opening the new building, it will be declared a success.

Agreed about personnel's ignorance of aptitudes. This is deliberate as the CS is run by generalists whose creed is one of generic 'competancies'. At promotion interviews, to show expertese or a preference to specialise is to commit hari-kari there and then. Many good IT people have been lost as they successfully 'dumbed-down' their IT skills and won promotions into admin areas.

The decision to move all IT work out of Dublin could be seen as part of the Civil Service's offensive against IT grades, knowing that many will find the move unnacceptable.

The barabarians are at the gates & coming over the walls.....

The_Conductor · 26-09-2004 09:22AM

Sorry- you're wrong.
On the CAF application- you were applying for locations, as opposed to positions. Included on the form you had to put your current rank and location. There was a big row with some of the unions over it- as they suspected that some of their staff who were getting allowances (notably IT and Revenue staff) might loose those allowances were they to move. It was noted as the allowance being granted to the person, as opposed to the job, and were someone else to take that position, they must have similar current entitlements, or else they would face a discrimatory position of doing similar work as their peers, but on a lower payscale.

While there is precedent for the above- it has resulted in sometime massive payouts for the incumbents doing the job on the lower payscale, in particular where there was a perception that their promotional prospects were adversely affected by the actions...... Offhand- you can read up about the "paperkeepers" (where staff were graded below Clerical Officer- and large numbers of them subsequently failed to be promoted and were awarded payouts (about a year ago).

I am not advocating promoting people willy-nilly to fill the positions- even if the civil service seems to be bloody good at doing that. It is far too simplistic an approach to simply hand people a promotion after they have had their bums in a seat for X number of years. The truth of the matter is, this is what is happening though. People who are totally incapable of performing tasks are being promoted beyond their abilities, to the detriment of their staff- solely on seniority grounds. Its endemic.

The current whispers are that while removal expenses or "disturbance expenses" will not be entertained, that the promotion of people into positions, providing they agree to stay in decentralised locations for a 2 year period will be used as an enticement to get people to move. The presumption on the part of those who might possibly avail of such an arrangement- is that they will commute to decentralised locations for a 2 year period, prior to being relocated back to Dublin, 2 years down the road, when the hullabulloo has died down (and more to the point, when the general election is over......)

The whole fiasco sickens me.

joolsveer · 26-09-2004 09:43AM

smccarrick wrote:

Sorry- you're wrong.
On the CAF application- you were applying for locations, as opposed to positions. Included on the form you had to put your current rank and location. There was a big row with some of the unions over it- as they suspected that some of their staff who were getting allowances (notably IT and Revenue staff) might loose those allowances were they to move. It was noted as the allowance being granted to the person, as opposed to the job, and were someone else to take that position, they must have similar current entitlements, or else they would face a discrimatory position of doing similar work as their peers, but on a lower payscale.

I suspect that the strategy behind decentralising IT posts is to outsource those functions to the private sector when Revenue et al have difficulty filling positions. I agree that the CS does not value specialists. You may say I'm a conspiracy nut but I would say the writing is on the wall for non general service civil servants.

NewDubliner · 26-09-2004 10:24AM

>>I suspect that the strategy behind decentralising IT posts is to outsource those functions to the private sector when Revenue et al have difficulty filling positions. <<

It's important not to over-simplify what's going on. There's more than just the Government and its Dublin staff in the game.

The scheme is being used as an opportunity by various factions in the Civil Service to gain the upper hand and shaft their opponents. Revenue's independent IT department has constantly been an affront to Finance who want to control all IT. Now Revenue is being forced to move to Kildare along with Finance.

It is ominous that the person considered most likely to take over Revenue's IT department after the retirement of the current director, currently works in Finance and lives 'within easy commuting distance' of Kildare.

The lack of enthusiasm among Revenue IT staff to move is partly because they might abhor & perhaps, even detest the move to Kildare and partly because of the likely situation the where almost all of the department's experience will have been lost & the stress & workload of the remaining experienced staff will rocket.

Kildare & being in the way of a 'new broom' from Finance? Not a nice place to work.

Revenue already outsources quite a bit and it will be ironic if after relocation, it is found that the work continues to be done from Dublin, but by a private sector company at greater cost, plus the salary of a quota of staff to fill the Kildare office, plus the salary of the 'dumped' existing Dublin IT staff.

EK.

The_Conductor · 26-09-2004 10:53AM

I'm singing off the same hymn sheet!

Decentralisation

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