Decentralisation

ishmael whale

While lack of volunteers may cause a very direct obstacle to a voluntary decentralisation scheme, the concentration on numbers applying tends to crowd out the more significant issues. A proportion of the civil service might like to work in the Bahamas. That doesn’t make it a sensible location for the Department of Marine.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0907/decentralisation.html

Decentralisation deadline today

07 September 2004 13:44
Today is the final deadline for civil servants to apply for decentralisation outside Dublin using the Central Applications Facility. However, the Department of Finance is not expected to publish the latest figures for those seeking relocation until next week. The original deadline for such applications was in July, but was extended because of the low level of interest displayed by civil servants. Some union sources have said that a last minute surge of enthusiasm by staff is unlikely………………………..

cyclopath2001

ishmael whale wrote:

Today is the final deadline for civil servants to apply for decentralisation outside Dublin using the Central Applications Facility. However, the Department of Finance is not expected to publish the latest figures for those seeking relocation until next week.

It'll take a week for the spin-doctors to massage the figures.

There's a strong chance that the numbers will eventually drop as some applications were speculative.

Unfortunately, some areas, regarded as 'back-office' will be aggressively targetted to get 'bums on seats' and moved at any expense in order to save face for the government. Expect existing IT staff to be dumped, replaced by people with zero talent for IT (but a desire to relocate), backed up by even more outside contractors than already employed, who will probably be based in Dublin......

ishmael whale

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Unfortunately, some areas, regarded as 'back-office' will be aggressively targetted to get 'bums on seats' and moved at any expense in order to save face for the government. Expect existing IT staff to be dumped, replaced by people with zero talent for IT (but a desire to relocate), backed up by even more outside contractors than already employed, who will probably be based in Dublin......

Indeed. Even opponents of the programme too easily accept the idea that ‘back office’ and/or ‘operational’ areas can be put anywhere without implications, partly because existing decentralised offices are pointed to as being ‘successful’.
However, when previous decentralisations are described as ‘successful’ all this typically means is that they managed to find staff to fill an office. There’s little actual assessment as to the impact those moves have had on costs and service delivery.
There are clear indications that reality cannot be suspended just because a work area is labelled ‘operational’. For example, the Legal Aid Board’s move to Cahirciveen has left it with a bizarre and costly setup of two head offices with the CEO expected to operate out of both. Equally, the cost overruns on the Forestry computer system seem to have been contributed to by staff rotation caused by decentralisation. There are other examples of decentralisation adding to costs in operational areas, and this is even without any systematic investigation of what the real experience has been.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2003/1108/ruralliving/countrylifestyle/feature.shtml
“In 1997 €5million was allocated for a computer system to manage Ireland's forestry industry. Six years and €15million later, someone realised it wasn't going to work and shouted stop …………… Separation from the Department of Agriculture and decentralisation got most of the blame. When the Department was moved to Wexford, its information technology unit had only four full-time staff, none of whom had any experience of systems development. …..”

uncivilservant

As predicted, following the CAF deadline I've been hearing many, many stories of people with no intention of going anywhere working the system - applying for their own jobs, planning to "change their mind" when time comes to move. I wonder will the second set of CAF figures reflect this in a jump in the numbers of staff choosing to relocate with their parent department?

cyclopath2001

uncivilservant wrote:

planning to "change their mind" when time comes to move.

I'm not sure I would agree with such 'wrecking tactics' as once the decentralisation juggernaut has started towards a particular FF constituency, it could be hard to stop.

There could be other reasons why genuine applicants might change their minds. An estate agent's brochure dropped through my East-Dublin letterbox today, featuring houses in Kildare, I think that the prices are nearly the same as in Dublin.

uncivilservant

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I'm not sure I would agree with such 'wrecking tactics' as once the decentralisation juggernaut has started towards a particular FF constituency, it could be hard to stop.

Unfortunately it has nothing to do with wrecking tactics and everything to do with looking after number 1 - all for a few extra years of peace and quiet.

An incredibly short sighted course of action, albeit completely understandable under the circumstances.

mrhappy42

ishmael whale wrote:

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2003/1108/ruralliving/countrylifestyle/feature.shtml

Lets just say that if this was the private sector and the following had happened:

"According to the comptroller and auditor general's report on the saga, the project was "not well managed from the point of view of good planning, quantification of the required work, deployment of resources, monitoring of progress and taking effective action to deal with the emerging difficulties''."

and the financial people in a company had issued something like:

"The Department of Finance raised concerns about the project, particularly about its management, in 1998 and again in 1999. In each case, it was given assurances that matters were under control."

That the project manager etc. would have been fired a long...long time ago.

Used to work in a place that did work for various for various depts including the dept of marine and if it was a company I think it would have gone bust a long time ago.

Same goes for other departments we did work for in the past.

Dont get me wrong I've seen banks and Insurance companies waste just as much money on badly run IT projects. So not picking on civil/private specifically.

Some departments have a good culture and are dynamic but the majority I have worked for do not encourage any form of ownership/initiative and tend not to have a very dynamic environment. Again a lot of private companies dont have this either...but they tend to not be around to long.

Maybe the hope of decentralisation is the generate a new culture within the departments...but that might be hoping for just that bit to much :-)

Its a shame it was not handeled better it could have been a good starting point for something new.

cyclopath2001

For the Irish Independent, September 10:

"Rules shake-up to block private sector wooing civil servants
Under the code, civil servants who hold positions designated under ethics legislation must, within 12 months of resigning or retiring, obtain the approval of the Outside Appointments Board, the Secretary General or Head of Office, before taking up any outside appointment."

Looks like the Government is shutting off escape routes for staff reluctant to relocate.

jd

cyclopath2001 wrote:

For the Irish Independent, September 10:

"Rules shake-up to block private sector wooing civil servants
.........."

Looks like the Government is shutting off escape routes for staff reluctant to relocate.

I think it will only apply to the most senior of posts. I mean, you could hardly allow a commissioner in Comreg to accept a position with Eircom or Esat, or an Assistant Secretary in The Dept of Transport accept a post with RyanAir or the Road Hauliers Association.

The_Conductor

ishmael whale wrote:

While lack of volunteers may cause a very direct obstacle to a voluntary decentralisation scheme, the concentration on numbers applying tends to crowd out the more significant issues.

Some union sources have said that a last minute surge of enthusiasm by staff is unlikely………………………..

Hmmmm- the fact that the CAF system was inaccessible to large numbers of people who might have applied coming up to the deadline might mitigate the possible "surge expected"........

Very tempted to start a poll- how many civil servants who were tempted to submit a CAF application were twarted by technical failure of the CAF application\ammendment system.......

S.

cyclopath2001

The 'flurry' may have been people who had already applied adding the IT & health locations to their list of preferences.

Or, it could have been staff making tactical applications to avoid being shortlisted to train in their replacements before being shunted to other jobs.

One must ask why Parlon chose to speculate now, instead of waiting for the actual figures?

This sounds like more 'spin'.

C.

pork99

I apologise if this has been mentioned before (there's only so much time in the day to read boards.ie and attempt to scratch a living) but isn't it the case that the IDA have admitted that they cannot expect in the future to attract companies to Ireland which will create jobs at the same level as in the past? (They're going to Eastern Europe and Asia now) Given this fact isn't it likely that the govt. is using civil service decentralisation as a substitute for the decline in the number of IDA funded overseas companies coming in and creating jobs in their constituencies?

cyclopath2001

>>isn't it likely that the govt. is using civil service decentralisation as a substitute for the decline in the number of IDA funded overseas companies coming in and creating jobs in their constituencies?<<

It depends on what you mean.

If you mean that the government wants to give the illusion that it is creating jobs in their constituencies, I would agree.

Some of the less carefully worded statements have referred to the relocated jobs as 'new' jobs, which is very mis-leading.

It is disgusting to think that one's job and career prospects now depend on chosing to live near a particular minister.

Victor

I'm just wondering will Decentralisation simply become privatisation, especially in areas like IT? Seeing as they are corrupting think like the frontpage of www.gov.ie and putting http://www.publicjobscaf.ie/ up with institutions like the President and the Irish Statute book.

Cork

cyclopath2001 wrote:

If you mean that the government wants to give the illusion that it is creating jobs in their constituencies, I would agree.



QUOTE]
If you mean that the government wants to give put more economic activity in the regions, I would think that it is about time.

There has been a huge surge in thosr who wish to decentralise. Figures are to be annonced during the week.

Fair play to companies like FEXCO in Kilorglin and Gng hotels in Kenmare in showing there is little need to be in the capital.

We have came a long way since we inherited our civil service from the British.

uncivilservant

Victor wrote:

I'm just wondering will Decentralisation simply become privatisation, especially in areas like IT? Seeing as they are corrupting think like the frontpage of www.gov.ie and putting http://www.publicjobscaf.ie/ up with institutions like the President and the Irish Statute book.

We don't call it privatisation - we call it outsourcing. It's quite the mantra these days.

uncivilservant

There has been a huge surge in thosr who wish to decentralise. Figures are to be annonced during the week.

Really? Care to share any of your insight?

We have came a long way since we inherited our civil service from the British.

Rather unfortunate then that some seem incapable of shaking off that nasty chip on their shoulder.

cyclopath2001

>>If you mean that the government wants to give put more economic activity in the regions, I would think that it is about time.<<

There's no evidence that the relocation scheme will put more economic activity in the regions. There have been no studies to demonstrate that this will be the outcome. In many cases, it is unlikely that the relocated staff will chose to live in the towns favoured by FF. The only new jobs will be for cleaners & these will come at the expense of firing cleaners in Dublin.

>>Fair play to companies like FEXCO in Kilorglin and Gng hotels in Kenmare in showing there is little need to be in the capital.<<

How about some fair play for those who want to live and work in the capital? If location is so unimportant, why not allow people continue to work there and save the huge cost of retraining everyone & the insanity of assigning people to jobs based on nothing more than their willingness to move somewhere?

>>We have came a long way since we inherited our civil service from the British.<<

Yes indeed, Dubliners need no longer feel inferior.

C.

cyclopath2001

>>I'm just wondering will Decentralisation simply become privatisation,<<

The relocation scheme is a convenient vehicle to dislodge the remaining opposition to IT outsourcing, mostly from among the more experienced staff who've seen poor quality of work from the private sector. Finance, in particular has been fighting for years to break the will of the larger IT departments & exercise direct control over them. Already starved, for years, of IT staff due to the inability to directly recruit people with IT aptitude, this scheme will drive out many of the remaining experienced staff and force the use of out-sourcing.

Watch out for the announcements about World Class Datacenters.

The irony is that once the the new offices are staffed with staff too inexperienced to ask the out-sourcers any hard questions, the work itself will be done back in the back-offices of the out-sourcing companies in Dublin & abroad.

The_Conductor

Not sure if this has come up before.
All those on the Dublin panels who sat previous civil service examinations awaiting possible placement in the civil service were given until the 2nd of September to send in a limited CAF application form. These new recruits are to be used in the initial decentralised groups to the especially difficult to fill positions. In addition- all current Dublin panels are due to lapse on the 31st of December, and all future recruitment, is to be limited to the regions.

S.

arcadegame2004

Interesting reading in today's Irish Independent.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=39&si=1249347&issue_id=11411

[/QUOTE]Last-minute boost for decentralisation


THE Government's decentralisation plans to relocate 10,000 public service jobs nationwide has been given a boost with a surge of applications just hours before the deadline.

Official figures revealing how many have asked for priority placing in the move around the country will be released later this week, but the figure could be in the region of 7,000 or above.

The last-minute dash to submit applications came as 1,300 transfer jobs in IT and the health sector close to the capital in Drogheda and Naas became available.

A Department of Finance spokesman said the official number of applicants will be announced this week but he could not confirm reports that the figure could be as high as 9,000.

The spokesman confirmed that the Central Applications Facility, the web-based system handling the applications, was put under pressure because of the high level of late demand just hours before the deadline last Tuesday.

The finance spokesman denied that an "artificially extended deadline" had been given with the decision not to release figures until later this week.

"Those who applied inside the deadline are entitled to priority. A more detailed analysis will be given later this week," he said.

Sources last night said application numbers could have swelled at the last minute if staff working in state agencies in Dublin applied to fill the 2,200 regional positions. When figures were published in July, only 292 of state agency workers had applied for transfer jobs. At that time, more than 2,000 Dublin-based civil servants had applied for 6,300 regional positions.

Ann O'Loughlin[/QUOTE]

So maybe it's back on the rails after all, and the regions outside of Dublin can start benefiting from it. I hope it will help Co.Wexford, where I live. I resent our 9% unemployment-rate down here, compared to Dublin's 2%. The Government before now has done virtually nothing to attract firms to this part of the country. We are hardly on the periphery of the country geographically, so I fail to understand why unemployment is so high in this county.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

[RE: Wexford] We are hardly on the periphery of the country geographically,

Which part of "on the coast" don't you understand? Oh, sorry, you mean the other Wexford, that well known Midlands county.

pete

Victor wrote:

Which part of "on the coast" don't you understand? Oh, sorry, you mean the other Wexford, that well known Midlands county.

i think he means the wexford that's near drogheda.

either that or the one near naas.

arcadegame2004

Victor wrote:

Which part of "on the coast" don't you understand? Oh, sorry, you mean the other Wexford, that well known Midlands county.

The Dublin mindset is alive and well I see!

sceptre

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Dublin mindset is alive and well I see!

I'm unsure as to whether you've ever seen an atlas or a geography book but when the capital of an island country is situated on the middle of the east coast and you're examining the positioning of an area that is placed on the extreme southeast of the country on the coast, by definition it's on the periphery. May not have stopped the EPA moving their headquarters down there a few years go but it's still on the periphery. I may be suffering from "midwest mindset" (whatever that might be) but a fact remains a fact when it's a fact to begin with.

cyclopath2001

>>Sources last night said application numbers could have swelled at the last minute if staff working in state agencies in Dublin applied to fill the 2,200 regional positions. When figures were published in July, only 292 of state agency workers had applied for transfer jobs. At that time, more than 2,000 Dublin-based civil servants had applied for 6,300 regional positions.<<

This is the sound of the government spin machine starting up. 'Sources' is usually a code word for government media handlers wanting to push out misleading information without being held to account for it.

The statistics will probably present a more confusing story.

How many of the numbers are working in Dublin and how many will have to be re-trained at considerable expense & loss of productivity?

The_Conductor

I'm attaching an excel spreadsheet of preliminary predictions of numbers applying for the different decentralised positions (as compiled by the CPSU) for all grades up to Principle Officer.
This data was compiled shortly after the Flynn Report, and is considered current.

Can we ever start dealing with facts instead of innuendo, and name calling.

S.

arcadegame2004

I'm unsure as to whether you've ever seen an atlas or a geography book but when the capital of an island country is situated on the middle of the east coast and you're examining the positioning of an area that is placed on the extreme southeast of the country on the coast, by definition it's on the periphery. May not have stopped the EPA moving their headquarters down there a few years go but it's still on the periphery. I may be suffering from "midwest mindset" (whatever that might be) but a fact remains a fact when it's a fact to begin with.

By "Dublin mindset" I mean the arrogant view that the Government should favour Dublin all the time over the regions in terms of encouraging multinationals to set up there and regional development. It has been going on for far too long and has resulted in many areas outside of Dublin being ignored. It is ridiculous that Wexford should have an unemployment rate stuck in the bad old days of 9%, while Dublin's is just 2%. I hope decentralisation will help the economic-development of regions like mine, whatever Derek McDowell make think about "dingy pubs" outside of Dublin.

jd

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It is ridiculous that Wexford should have an unemployment rate stuck in the bad old days of 9%, while Dublin's is just 2%.

I'm from Wexford, and if I was setting up a company I'd be reluctant to set it up in Wexford. Like it or not, Wexford has a reputation for worker militancy over stupid issues.

The_Conductor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

By "Dublin mindset" I mean the arrogant view that the Government should favour Dublin all the time over the regions in terms of encouraging multinationals to set up there and regional development. It has been going on for far too long and has resulted in many areas outside of Dublin being ignored. It is ridiculous that Wexford should have an unemployment rate stuck in the bad old days of 9%, while Dublin's is just 2%. I hope decentralisation will help the economic-development of regions like mine, whatever Derek McDowell make think about "dingy pubs" outside of Dublin.

Once again - I'm sorry to have to totally ignore your statement - because unfortunately you are pulling figures from thin air - they are utter and total waffle.

According to the latest CSO employment figures (August 2004) (link: http://www.cso.ie/publications/labour/lregan.pdf )

Dublin (and that is Dublin alone, not including any of the surrounding areas) has an unemployment rate of 44,953 persons, including 5,683 people signing on at the Cumberland Street office alone.

Wexford has 7,031 persons unemployed.

The current national unemployment rate is 4.3%, a fall of 0.1% on July.

By region Dublin has 26% of the total number of people unemployed nationally, the South East (all of it, not just Wexford- i.e. Carlow, Kilkenny, South Tipperary, Waterford City and County, Wexford whole county) has a national total of 12.4% of the total number of people unemployed nationally.

There was a seasonal decrease in unemployment in both Dublin and Wexford in the last month.

Once again, as I mentioned previously on this thread- please research your data before throwing totally wild assumptions up in the air as fact- when, as you plainly see, it just is not the case..........

S.