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Decentralisation

uncivilservant

As a dublin civil servant, i'm sure most people can guess what my attitude is to the current implementation of mass decentralisation. But i'd be interested to hear what others think.

Good thing? Bad thing? Quit your whining and be happy you have a job?

Anyone?

Mods: I had considered posting this to B/E/F rather than Politics, but to be honest i'm not sure which board it suits more. PI probably ha.

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NewDubliner

Parlon's logic is that once the buildings are built and filled with warm bodies, it's a success.

Note also, the recent article in the Examiner reminding us that 'expressions of interest' are just that. So Parlon is counting his chickens before they're hatched.

cdebru

i heard that rumour as well that parlon is fond of filling warm bodies

ishmael whale

Yes, reason has finally left the country. Why is Dublin is split between two regions? Why are its health services to be ‘co-ordinated’ from Kells and Tullamore? Even the people doing it can’t explain that, they’re just lost in some fantasy where everything has to be moved outside the 01 dialling area for some reason that they can’t quite remember.

Could it be suggested that getting the health services working nationally is more important that farting around with the location of office staff? Could it be suggested that Dublin exists, and no amount of wishful thinking will alter that? Can it be admitted that so much of the time of the Kells and Tullamore offices will be spent dealing with issues occurring in Dublin and services provided from Dublin that locating those offices in Dublin would be the natural choice, just as Galway and Cork are natural locations for HQs for the Western and Southern regions? Why is reality suspended when we head East?

Watch this space for the forthcoming decentralisation of Dublin City Council to Donegal.

http://www.doh.ie/pressroom/pr20040928.html
‘Minister Martin announces structure of Health Service Executive
28 September 2004
Tuesday, 28 September 2004. The regional, local and national structures of the new Health Service Executive have been announced by Minister for Health and Children, Michéal Martin TD. The new organisation becomes effective in January 2005. Commenting, Minister Martin said that "today’s announcement was a further tangible step in progress toward the necessary structural reform of the health system".
"I am very pleased to announce today that the Government has agreed four regional areas of the Health Service Executive; Western, Southern; Dublin/North-East, Dublin/Mid-Leinster. They will be headquartered in Galway City; Cork City; Kells, Co Meath and Tullamore, Co Offaly. These regional centres are not health boards, but rather units which will assist in the co-ordination of services delivered through the local health offices.………..’

Victor

Western, Southern; Dublin/North-East, Dublin/Mid-Leinster.

I wonder where Wexford fits into this.

uncivilservant

uncivilservant wrote:

Finance have held back on releasing the breakdown of CAF applications by grade until next week. Are they hoping we'll forget?

Two weeks on and still no figures released.

It would appear that any further analysis of the CAF figures by grade is an Taoiseach's business alone:

One fifth of the Taoiseach's staff have applied to be relocated outside Dublin despite the fact there are no plans to transfer the department, it emerged today.

Bertie Ahern admitted that some 44 staff, including 12 executive officers, had applied to move away from the capital.

http://www.uncivilservant.com/article.php?id=295

Speaking in the Dáil this afternoon, Mr Ahern said 44 civil servants in his own department - around 20% of the total - had applied to decentralise.

This is even though the Department of the Taoiseach is not moving itself, but Mr Ahern said that the changes would not have any adverse effect on the Department's work.

Mr Ahern added that in the future there would be greater use of information technology and conference call facilities.

The Labour Party leader, Pat Rabbitte, said he knew some of his Cabinet colleagues may not be too happy to be in the same room as the Taoiseach, but video conferencing might be taking things too far.

uncivilservant

Looks like the wait is nearly over...

The chairman of the Decentralisation Implementation Group, Phil Flynn, is to appear before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance to give a progress report on the Government plan to transfer 10,300 civil servants out of Dublin.

He will reveal the latest figures on what grades are applying for what jobs in new areas.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1006/decentralisation

... while relocation to the Probation and Welfare Service in Navan is theoretically oversubscribed, not a single probation officer has applied to fill the 78 probation officer jobs on offer.

A significant proportion of those applying are already based outside Dublin, and are seeking a region to region transfer.

A number of people have also sought transfers to places where there are no jobs for them at their current grade.

NewDubliner

What's the betting they'll release the report on a Friday afternoon?

No doubt, Tom Parlon will point to all the buildings he's acquiring (with superb car parking and promotional prospects) and announce that everything is on schedule.

No wonder so many staff want to leave the Taoiseach's office.....

This just in:

The Chairman of the Decentralisation Implementation Group has told an Oireachtas Committee on Finance that decentralisation can work, but that there are huge problems that must be resolved.
Phil Flynn acknowledged that there could be a breakdown of service to consumers if the relocation programme were not managed efficiently.

He stressed that the programme was voluntary, adding that the concerns of those staff staying in Dublin must also be addressed.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1006/decentralisation.html

ishmael whale

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1006/decentralisation.html
“Mr Flynn told the Oireachtas committee that there had never been any intention of big bang instant decentralisation, ……..”

Fine, there was never any big bang planned, no-one ever said they’d complete the programme in three years and the article below from the Irish Examiner last March is obviously in error.
http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgI-tsdBk20ZEsg0aewFBADppk.asp

“In further comments to RTÉ yesterday, Mr Ahern said he was confident Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy could make good on his promise to complete the decentralisation process by the end of 2006."

Can anybody remember why this programme needs to be persisted with? For example, can anybody point out why a core value for the establishment of the new health services agency is it must be located in Naas?

ishmael whale

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgF6UQQdyqZiYsgHuTLc4nqWo2.asp

06/10/04
Ahern turns tables on decentralisation critic
‘…... “We should try not to think in old-fashioned ways that have more to do with gombeen days,” he [Bertie Ahern] said.”…’

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_561509335/gombeen_man.html
‘gom•been man
noun Ireland
1. moneylender: a moneylender who charges exorbitant interest
2. entrepreneur: a small-time entrepreneur’
What exactly is Bertie trying (and failing) to say here? To the extent that the only people who seem to be supporting this decentralisation are estate agents it would seem more apt to describe his policy as an example of gombeenism.
But there’s more:
“Professor Walsh’s success in the development of the University of Limerick was a classic example of effective decentralisation, Mr Ahern said, as the former UL president moved to the city 25 years ago because he believed it wasn’t necessary to centralise all higher education facilities.”
Fine, if UL is a classic example of effective decentralisation then why don’t they follow it. Put coherent organisations in suitable locations where they have a function. What the Government is proposing is the equivalent of putting UL’s administration office in Newcastle West, its computer centre in Tullamore, some of its lecture theatres in Templemore etc etc.

Presumably what Bertie means when he points to UL as a precedent is ‘sure there’s a load of culchies taking up space in a building down the bog on publicly funded salaries, and that’s exactly the formula we’re following.”

sceptre

ishmael whale wrote:

What exactly is Bertie trying (and failing) to say here?

Something to do with Albert Reynolds by the looks of things.

NewDubliner

PSEU Has issued a circular at http://www.pseu.ie/docs/Decent17.doc

The enthusiasm of IT staff for the scheme is quite low. Mid to senior management seem to be a particularly revolting bunch....

No figures indicate if the IT staff applying are actually applying for their own IT area or someone else's, so the flight of expertese may be higher. Also,the figures do not include the attitude of the on-site contractors, some of whom may take advantage of the situation & put up their rates or opt to work for more conveniently located organisations.

Also mentioned is that Government is taking the hard line that any provincial staff required to come to Dublin to learn the jobs of the Dublin people whose jobs they are taking, must do so at their own expense.

My own experience suggests that if goverment wanted to hole staff morale below the water line, they've succeeded.

EK

NewDubliner

ishmael whale wrote:

can anybody point out why a core value for the establishment of the new health services agency is it must be located in Naas?

Forthcoming by-election for a FF seat?

parsi

smccarrick wrote:

Eligibility criteria at present are that you can only move to a position at the same grade. The IT positions have allowances attached to them (as IT staff were being poached previously). Thus an EO in the IT section might be denoted as EO JSA (being Executive Officer - Junior Systems Analyst). Someone who entered the service as an EO into an administrative position (regardless of their qualifications) would not be eligible to apply for one of these positions. For the most part the IT staff seem to be looking for "Head-to-Head" transfers- i.e. transfers into other government departments (that preferably are not moving) into a position which carries similar allowances.

That's interesting - in our place IT staff on networks/infrastructure (non-programmers basically) are all General Service and we have internal comeptitions to fill any vacancies...the programming side is a different (analyst) stream but none of us have allowances...

The_Conductor

parsi wrote:

That's interesting - in our place IT staff on networks/infrastructure (non-programmers basically) are all General Service and we have internal comeptitions to fill any vacancies...the programming side is a different (analyst) stream but none of us have allowances...

Its quite possible that its handled differently in the different departments (regardless of the directions that issue from DoF on it). What a mess.....

uncivilservant

It would appear that the Department of Finance are not overly concerned with releasing further analysis of the Decentralisation CAF applications. One can but wonder why.

As NewDubliner pointed out, they are available from the PSEU (excel) & IMPACT (pdf) websites.

Or indeed from the website in my signature.

NewDubliner

Flynn: "“We don’t have answers to some of the questions yet and we don’t even know the extent of the problems, if anything, yet,” he said."

Flynn: "there is no evidence that the scheme will not succeed."

!!!!

Cork

Would it be a fair comment to say that the majority of jobs in our public services are non specialist?

There seems to be an abundance of jobs like clerical officer, staff officer etc.

Where as in the private sector - job descriptions are given with actual jobs.

uncivilservant

Cork wrote:

Would it be a fair comment to say that the majority of jobs in our public services are non specialist?

No, it wouldn't. Please try not to confuse a formalised grade structure with individual expertise and experience; and please try to remember there's a difference between civil servants and public servants as a whole.

There seems to be an abundance of jobs like clerical officer, staff officer etc.

See above.

Where as in the private sector - job descriptions are given with actual jobs.

I'm struggling to find your point.

NewDubliner

Would it be a fair comment to say that the majority of jobs in our public services are non specialist?

That's the 'flat-earth', two dimensional view taken officially by the HR people. It makes recruitment easier & avoids acknowledging particular people who may be valuable experts & specialists, but employed under a generic title. The official dogma is that anyone can do anyone's job at the same grade. But, that's like saying that pianists should be able to sing since they're both in the 'musician' grade. Worse still, there would be a policy of forcing 'pianists' to become 'singers' in the interests of career development.

There seems to be an abundance of jobs like clerical officer, staff officer etc.

These are the 'shelf-packer', 'check-out clerk' grades of the civil service.

Where as in the private sector - job descriptions are given with actual jobs.

This would make recruitment very inconvenient, it's easier to treat people as commodities and stuff them into the next vacancy.

The current reloction scheme is based on this dogma as it would be expensive to try and match skills and expertese to vacancies & all FF wants is 'bums on seats' in new offices, with 'superb car parking'.

uncivilservant

NewDubliner wrote:

These are the 'shelf-packer', 'check-out clerk' grades of the civil service.

I think "junior grades", or perhaps an explanation of their places on the food chain would have sufficed. Those of us that progessed from clerical assistant to the heady heights of civil service middle management are an easily offended lot.

From the publicjobs.gov.ie "Typical Posts and Profiles" page:

Clerical Officer

This is the first step into an exciting career in the Civil Service. Clerical Officers work in all departments in Ireland, providing vital input to the team through a range of general office duties. Promotional opportunities are available to all Clerical Officers when they are made permanent. Clerical Officers need a good general educational standard and a customer focused attitude.

Nice and non-descript. No mention of a "typical" Staff Officer profile*, but in case you are curious I've written one myself.**

Staff Officer

This is the first taste of power for many Civil Servants. Typically female and approaching middle age, you have clawed your way from the black hole that is the Clerical Officer grade. You may now make the lives of your staff a living hell. Promotional opportunities are available to all Staff Officers once they have stayed in the same section for 15 years and their manager wants to get rid of them. Staff Officers need a good educational standard, and a real taste for tea.

* you can't be recruited directly to the SO grade.

** I'm a civil servant, so i'm allowed to make jokes about civil servants. It helps ease the pain.

edit: For those interested, the Typical Posts & Profiles page can be found here: http://www.publicjobs.gov.ie/Civil%20Service%20Career/English/career_information.htm

NewDubliner

Staff Officer.....You may now make the lives of your staff a living hell.

This remark would insult the staff officers that I know. But we jest & to enter into the spirit of things:

Department Secretary.....suggests to the minister that decentralisation can work & watches, with delight, the pain & terror it inflicts on his/her rivals as morale in their departments plummets & chaos looms. Equally, observes the panic & despair among one's own staff. That'll keep them on their toes!

AP, PO....agrees at meetings that decentralisation can work & that (s)he is totally comitted to it .....in the hope of making Assistant Secretary some day. (Hopes to have moved on before the hard bit comes.)

The rest: Not consulted anyway. Too busy working & mostly hopes it'll go away.

uncivilservant

NewDubliner wrote:

The rest: Not consulted anyway. Too busy working & mostly hopes it'll go away.

Spot on.

Interestingly enough, the most frequent comment i have heard in relation to the CAF figures is "I wonder what the numbers will look like when they actually ask people to move?"

Personally speaking, I can't wait.

The_Conductor

NewDubliner wrote:

The rest: Not consulted anyway. Too busy working & mostly hopes it'll go away.

One particular department which will remain nameless, had a Christmas party in their HQ in 1996 to celebrate their last year in their Kildare Street office (which was to be handed over to the Houses of the Oireachtas (mostly for the car parking spaces- cynical me, never).

The voluntery decentralisation of that department was never completed....

Lesson number 1- Nothing happens fast.

Lesson number 2- Politics and promises from on high are nothing more than hot air.

Lesson number 3- If you cry wolf, don't expect to be believed.

S.

Cork

uncivilservant wrote:

I'm struggling to find your point.

Many jobs within the state sector are jobs without specific job descriptions. Should this not help with decentralising people?

With the influx of many graduates into the state sector - a comprehensive skills audit is clearly needed.

uncivilservant

Cork wrote:

Many jobs within the state sector are jobs without specific job descriptions. Should this not help with decentralising people?

Well if the people performing those jobs had acquired no skills, had no attained no experience and had received no job-specific training, then yes. Yes it would.

Please refer back to my initial reply to your post.

With the influx of many graduates into the state sector - a comprehensive skills audit is clearly needed.

http://www.bettergov.ie/index.asp?locID=151

The_Conductor

Cork wrote:

Many jobs within the state sector are jobs without specific job descriptions. Should this not help with decentralising people?

With the influx of many graduates into the state sector - a comprehensive skills audit is clearly needed.

Actually one of the central tenents of the PMDS that all civil servants signed up to (as part of benchmarking) was role profiles and job descriptions- as a manner for objectively measuring performance (with debatable reliability- but I'm not going there).

Strictly speaking we all have role profiles, and job descriptions (normally based on the divisional work plan- which is totally redrawn annually and reviewed twice a year to monitor compliance).

PMDS :mad:

http://www.bettergov.ie/index.asp?locID=165&docID=-1

S.

The_Conductor

uncivilservant wrote:

Well if the people performing those jobs had acquired no skills, had no attained no experience and had received no job-specific training, then yes. Yes it would.

Please refer back to my initial reply to your post.

http://www.bettergov.ie/index.asp?locID=151

Beat me to it!

parsi

uncivilservant wrote:

Nice and non-descript. No mention of a "typical" Staff Officer profile*, but in case you are curious I've written one myself.**

* you can't be recruited directly to the SO grade.

You forgot to mention that in many departments they are becoming an anachronism being replaced by EOs.

Regarding the earlier comments about being "generalists" this is quite true. I work in IT but started off in a Line section. Theroretically I could go back there on Monday. If I transferred to another Department I could end up anywhere without heed to my qualifications and experience..it's the way of the service..

uncivilservant

parsi wrote:

You forgot to mention that in many departments they are becoming an anachronism being replaced by EOs.

Regarding the earlier comments about being "generalists" this is quite true. I work in IT but started off in a Line section. Theroretically I could go back there on Monday. If I transferred to another Department I could end up anywhere without heed to my qualifications and experience..it's the way of the service..

There are many, many people in the same situation, working in IT sections (of smaller departments, usually) that aren't considered "proper" IT sections by Finance / CMOD because they are staffed by general service grades.

It's an issue not just confined to IT, though - the same holds true for any roles dependent on experienced, trained staff. While it has always been feasible to transfer or promote one or two people in and out of these sections at a time without greatly affecting the running of the operation, the idea that a mass relocation can occur across the board and everything will be ok because these are all general service staff is absolutely farcical.

NewDubliner

smccarrick wrote:

Actually one of the central tenents of the PMDS that all civil servants signed up to (as part of benchmarking) was role profiles and job descriptions- as a manner for objectively measuring performance (with debatable reliability- but I'm not going there).S.

I was on a PMDS course. The people who drew it up were totally out of touch with the work actually done in my department. The examples were pure textbook 'Maura works as a HEO in the minister's private secretary's office....'.

What would have been more relevant would be 'Sean is a systems analyst using buggy software selected by cheapest tender, trying to get the minister's e-government project working after the consultants have left.'