Decentralisation

cyclopath2001

>>The Collector Generals office transferred very successfully to Limerick.<<

You need to see past the spin. Define 'very successfully'?

I thought I read that it cost a lot of money, in training, travel expenses, new computer systems and promotions & that it took quite a long time to reduce the staff surplus that it created?

How much will a scheme that is 20 times larger in scope cost?

How many of the 'very successfully' transferred staff are now clamouring to get out of Limerick?

Victor

Cork wrote:

The Collector Generals office transferred very successfully to Limerick.

Do you mean where they took up office space with a landlord who didn't have a Tax Clearence Certificate? The ironing is strong with this one.

spongebob

It dramatically reduced the huge sick time bill in a sick building in Dublin (near the Concert Hall) IIRC

M

cyclopath2001

>>Move a few of the independent offices out of Dublin,<<

Name some.

cyclopath2001

>>It dramatically reduced the huge sick time bill in a sick building in Dublin (near the Concert Hall) IIRC <<

Evidence?

CathyMoran

Have tried to speed read the thread, but may have failed:-(

There seem to be a few people knocking the civil service for one and I feel that this over generalisation is unfair - yes, they have flexi-time (up to certain grades), but this does not mean that they do not work hard - having worked in the private sector under flexi-time I found that I tended to put in a longer working week.

There are numerous couples in the service - sending them both to the oppposite ends of the country hardly seems fair - and what about any kids involved - shifting kids to different schools seems unfair.

cdebru

CathyMoran wrote:

There seem to be a few people knocking the civil service for one and I feel that this over generalisation is unfair - yes, they have flexi-time (up to certain grades), but this does not mean that they do not work hard - having worked in the private sector under flexi-time I found that I tended to put in a longer working week.

hi flexi time of course is not there just to benefit the workers either it alsso means less people are travelling to work at the same time you still have to work your contract hours just you can start alittle earlier or later and finish the same
the job still gets done the hours still get worked

Cork

cdebru wrote:

CathyMoran wrote:

There seem to be a few people knocking the civil service for one and I feel that this over generalisation is unfair - yes, they have flexi-time (up to certain grades), but this does not mean that they do not work hard - having worked in the private sector under flexi-time I found that I tended to put in a longer working week.

Holidays? The private secor get 29 inc bank holidays. Does the public sector get more?

Career Breaks? How long can public servants take off & then return to their job?

How many public servants work after 5pm?

Having worked in both the private and public sector - they are some good perks in the public sector.

arcadegame2004

I support the decentralisation. I come from Co.Wexford where the unemployment rate is 9%, in spite of our geographic location making it seem strange that we should be on the economic-periphery of Ireland. I am fed up with our county being forever passed over with respect to investment and the plan to send some civil-servants to Wexford town is welcome. In future, civil-servants could be recruited from the local area also. It is high time that the powers that be start realising that the Republic of Ireland has 25 other counties than just Dublin.

CathyMoran

Recruiting locally may be all well and good, but it does not deal with the current situation - these people are working in Dublin, they have their lives there...there have always been regional competitions for jobs.

Cork

arcadegame2004 wrote:

It is high time that the powers that be start realising that the Republic of Ireland has 25 other counties than just Dublin.

I agree. It is no wonder Dublin is such a mess when there has been so little regionalisation in this country.

I believe decentralisation and the spacial stratergy will hep with regionalisation. This government has shown more than lip service to regionalisation. The re-opening the Western Rail Corridor from Sligo to Limerickwould be an great piece of national infrastructure that would bring benefits to the entire west of Ireland.

Please support this campaign:
Link

Down in Cork Youghal and Midleton need to linked to Cork City by rail.

Just as the government has invested in Luas for Dublin - the government has to realise there is 25 more countries there that deserve better rail links.

The Dublin to Kerry Train service needs to be improved as well.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by CathyMoran
Recruiting locally may be all well and good, but it does not deal with the current situation - these people are working in Dublin, they have their lives there...there have always been regional competitions for jobs.

The civil-servant in Dublin, with a house worth 700,000 euro (which seems to me to be far from unusual from what I have read on advertisements in estate-agent windows there) who stubbornly refuses to move from Dublin to another part of the country has little sympathy from me. The sale-price alone would more than pay for a house in the parts of the country where average house-prices are more like 200,000 euro, and they would have loads of money left over from the sale.

It has been claimed that some of the trade-unions have been urging their members to reject decentralisation point-blank. I find this despicable behaviour but hardly surprising considering the unions links to Labour with its anti-rural and anti-provincial mindset. They are putting party-interest before the national-interest.

CathyMoran

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The civil-servant in Dublin, with a house worth 700,000 euro (which seems to me to be far from unusual from what I have read on advertisements in estate-agent windows there) who stubbornly refuses to move from Dublin to another part of the country has little sympathy from me. The sale-price alone would more than pay for a house in the parts of the country where average house-prices are more like 200,000 euro, and they would have loads of money left over from the sale.

It has been claimed that some of the trade-unions have been urging their members to reject decentralisation point-blank. I find this despicable behaviour but hardly surprising considering the unions links to Labour with its anti-rural and anti-provincial mindset. They are putting party-interest before the national-interest.

From the friends of mine who are civil servants none of them have these so called 700K houses, most are lucky if they have houses at all. These people have families and lives in Dublin. If you are trying to argue that it will bring extra jobs down the country - do remember these jobs are MOVING from Dublin...please be more open minded and try and see other peoples views also.

The_Conductor

Arcadegame2004- as pointed out to you by several people (I've actually taken the time to read all the postings on this thread), the average civil servant does not have a house worth 700,000 Euro- anyone who thinks that is true is plain living in cloud cuckoo land. The average house price in Dublin (according to the IAVI) is currently Euro 380,000- and depending on the demographics of the age group a large number of people may be living in flats/apartments as opposed to "houses" (and flats and apartments in Dublin are cheaper than they are in Cork and Waterford according to last Thursdays Property section). In addition- and this is not disputed, second hand house prices have fallen 4.2% in the first six months of the year in Dublin (new house prices do continue to rise however). Your utter and complete nonsensical financial daydreams are- nonsense.

Trade Unions have NOT been urging their members to reject benchmarking. The CPSU, who represent the vast bulk of those lower civil servants being decentralised (over 7,500 of the 10,500 positions and over 4,000 of the first wave) are actively in favour of decentralisation, if you bothered to read the press releases on their website and in the national press you would see as much. The next largest union- the PSEU- representing junior management, has been rather mute, but were actually among the parties who initially mooted decentralisation (of course with the consultation and agreement of all- not some hair-brained idea foisted on people from on-high). The sole union to actively canvas members against decentralisation (in the civil service) is to the best of my knowledge the AHCS- and even then that must be read with a caveat.

What you are bleating is plain and utter nonsense.

Vis-a-vis local recruitment for the civil service and 9% unemployment in Wexford...... so? What are you advocating? Rounding up the 9% and offering them positions in the civil service? Thats presuming that the 9% are actually actively seeking employment. The Civil Service Commission was established for a number of reasons- among which was to eschew political favouritism and make all appointments by merit and above board. It is an insult to civil servants to insinuate that local recruitment (which does currently occur, contrary to your ascertain) short circuit this process. Thus, all current, and future civil servants, should be made sit their aptitude tests, their various tests and their interview panels, to ensure fair play when offering employment in the public sector.

The

arcadegame2004 wrote:

They are putting party-interest before the national-interest.

is quite simply untrue...... Civil Servants, if you were unaware, are percluded from engagement in politics or having membership of any political party. This is also the reason from one of your earlier rants- that civil servants are often asked to adjudicate as electoral clerks- because civil servants are seen as impartial.


There are competitions for specific localities- I remember seeing an "open competition for the post of revenue administrator in Limerick"- that is- it is open to everyone and anyone- but the position is in Limerick. It is not limited to the people of Limerick- there are no parochial politics and shenanigans at play....

By the same coin- civil servants may have entered the civil service under competions specifying they are only employed in Dublin- and their positions are now being decentralised elsewhere...... You glossed over that point when it was brought up earlier in this thread.

Seems like a brilliant game- bash the civil servant, doesn't it? Well- if you want to play- 1) try making sure that your facts are right and 2) don't be surprised when the people who you annoy correct you.......

Shane.

cdebru

Cork wrote:

Holidays? The private secor get 29 inc bank holidays. Does the public sector get more?

Career Breaks? How long can public servants take off & then return to their job?

How many public servants work after 5pm?

Having worked in both the private and public sector - they are some good perks in the public sector.

the private sector get 29 inc bank holidays every single company no exceptions??
do the public sector get more tell us
dont know how long this also available in some private companies
loads i know one civil servant rarely gets home before 9pm 3 nights a week doing overtime
some is paid for some they have to take time off for in lieu

besides that whats the point cork this has nothing to do with decentralisation
all of these will apply wether the civil servant is in dublin or anywhere else

cdebru

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The civil-servant in Dublin, with a house worth 700,000 euro (which seems to me to be far from unusual from what I have read on advertisements in estate-agent windows there) who stubbornly refuses to move from Dublin to another part of the country has little sympathy from me. The sale-price alone would more than pay for a house in the parts of the country where average house-prices are more like 200,000 euro, and they would have loads of money left over from the sale.

It has been claimed that some of the trade-unions have been urging their members to reject decentralisation point-blank. I find this despicable behaviour but hardly surprising considering the unions links to Labour with its anti-rural and anti-provincial mindset. They are putting party-interest before the national-interest.

has it occured to you that alot of civil servants dont even own a house so they are not in for any kind of a windfall
also what estate agents window gave the occupation of the current owner
i have never seen a house advertised anywhere were the occupation of the current owner was given
lastly if a civil servant really want ed to move to wexford or anywhere else it would make no difference what their union said
as can be seen by the 2000 odd people who did apply mainly for jobs in places like drogheda where presumbably they are already living
also if anyone is putting party interest in front of the interest of the nation it would have to be your friends in ff and the pds who picked the locations for decentalisation purely on the basis of what would benefit them at the next election
remember parlon 's posters

The_Conductor

Another little point- that hasn't been mentioned- not all of the jobs being decentralised are in Dublin.....

E.g. the Department of Agriculture are decentralising their Cork staff to Macroom.... etc.

cdebru- yes, actual amount of holidays depends 1) Rank of the civil servant- the higher the rank the more holidays (as in the private sector), 2) length of tenure- an additional days annual leave is granted after 5 years and then 10 years service.

For an EO in the civil service, basic annual leave is 21 days, which can be supplemented by up to a maximum of 1.5 days per month by working unpaid overtime hours (any additional hours are simply lost, paid overtime does not exist for most administrative staff).

In recognition of Christmas and Easter- as civil servants do not get Christmas bonuses (unlike the private sector), some departments allow a "privilege day" that is a day that the entire Department is closed, over and above regular leave, from which a day is not deducted from annual leave.

The other leave entitlements- hmmm- if you get married they will give you upto 5 additional days leave ( with the caveat your annual leave entitlement may not exceed 25 days- so if you have 21 days annual leave- you get 4 days for marriage etc).

Re: an earlier post- on career breaks- a minimum 6 month break can be taken and a maximum can normally be negotiated with Personnel officers. Yes, its nice being able to do it, but it is at a price. During a career break you cannot be employed fulltime- maybe someone else knows the rules on it- I couldn't be bothered raiding the Department of Finance section on circulars again....

Re: Exam leave- (unlike the big accountancy firms here who give a months study leave per subject- civil servants studying accountancy get 1 day study leave per subject, plus the morning of the exam off (anything over this has to come out from their annual leave.....))

People seem to have a totally biassed and uniformed view of the working conditions that civil servants actually have.

Re: Gauranteed job for life- all new recruits are recruited on a 1 year contract basis. In addition they are required to complete 2 years probation- of which their contract year may or may not count towards. Is there a single job in the private sector where new starts are put through a 2 year probation (and possibly longer)??

cdebru

hi smcarrick
i was just point ing out that really it doesn't matter because all of this will remain unaffected by decentralisation i presume that a civil servant in cork has the same holiday entitlements as one in dublin and will continue too

your right though there is a lot of uninformed opinion about civil servants and employees of semistates etc
like they are all living in 700 000e houses
come and go as they please
cant get sacked
set their own wages
take six months off to holiday in their second house in the cayman islands
all have their own yachts moored at the marina in malahide
dont like anyone outside of the pale some think the country ends there
even though a significant number of them come from outside the pale
and of course then there is benchmarking
didn't they make areal fool of charlie mc creevy with that one

but what can you expect when so many people read rags like the sunday independent
and its stable mates

uncivilservant

Off topic, but...

smccarrick wrote:

For an EO in the civil service, basic annual leave is 21 days, which can be supplemented by up to a maximum of 1.5 days per month by working unpaid overtime hours (any additional hours are simply lost, paid overtime does not exist for most administrative staff).

In recognition of Christmas and Easter- as civil servants do not get Christmas bonuses (unlike the private sector), some departments allow a "privilege day" that is a day that the entire Department is closed, over and above regular leave, from which a day is not deducted from annual leave.

The privilege day is an anachronism left over from british rule, when (her majesty's) civil servants got two days off in honour of occasions relating to the royal family. Post-independence, the entitlement to these days were retained, but in this day and age they should be done away with & replaced with 2 days annual leave.

career breaks- a minimum 6 month break can be taken and a maximum can normally be negotiated with Personnel officers. Yes, its nice being able to do it, but it is at a price. During a career break you cannot be employed fulltime- maybe someone else knows the rules on it- I couldn't be bothered raiding the Department of Finance section on circulars again....

From memory:

You can take between 6 months and 5 years off to either travel or start a business.

You can take several career breaks in your career, as long as the intervening period is longer than the previous career break, up to a combined maximum of 5 years.

You cannot take any other paid employment during this time, other than self-employment, and cannot claim unemployment assistance or benefit.

People seem to have a totally biassed and uniformed view of the working conditions that civil servants actually have?

Unfortunately the repeat offenders have been corrected on numerous occasions but seem to be incapable of listening.

uncivilservant

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The civil-servant in Dublin, with a house worth 700,000 euro (which seems to me to be far from unusual from what I have read on advertisements in estate-agent windows there)

Have you any idea how ridiculous this statement is?

Let me get this straight - civil servants live in Dublin and you've seen houses in dublin selling for €700,000, so therefore dublin civil servants live in €700,000 houses? Are you serious?

Have you any idea how much the average civil servant is paid? Or what mortgage they could afford?

who stubbornly refuses to move from Dublin to another part of the country has little sympathy from me.

I'm sure they'll all be crying into their tea tomorrow morning. What are you suggesting? Guns to the head and a forced march?

The sale-price alone would more than pay for a house in the parts of the country where average house-prices are more like 200,000 euro, and they would have loads of money left over from the sale.

What parts? What sale price? What average?

Do you have any facts you'd like to share?

It has been claimed that some of the trade-unions have been urging their members to reject decentralisation point-blank.

Where? You're not confusing / misrepresenting SIPTU's request that their membership not cooperate with the CAF process by any chance?

cyclopath2001

The many side-trips into dis'ing civil servants and comparing their conditions with other jobs highlight the poverty of the business case for decentralisation. Having failed to come up with an argument based on cost/benefit (indeed having failed to quantify the cost), the promoters are resorting to 'black propaganda' trying to bully people into reolocating by harnessing begrudger/anti-public servant sentiment.

arcadegame2004

The Dublin-mindset is alive and well I see. I'm sorry but when I have looked in estate-agents windows in Dublin I find it incredibly hard to come across a sing one that isn't 700,000.

Even the sale of a 380,000 house would pay for a house far away from Dublin.

Dublin only has a 2% unemployment-rate. Wexford county has a 9% unemployment-rate.

As McCreevy correctly said a while back, if you don't have deadlines then it doesn't happen.

The Government will lose as many votes as they will retain if they ditch decentralisation.

Hello Dublin! We exist!

The_Conductor

arcadegame2004- you just don't get it do you?
Where did you pull that statistic about Dublin's employment statistics from?
Seeing as you like statistics- the official statistics from the CSO are as follows:

Please see this link:
http://www.cso.ie/archive/2004/qnhs/liveregister/analysis/lregan_june2004.pdf

The official statistic, as compiled by the CSO- the central Statistics office, states that the current unemployment rate in Dublin is almost 27% of all unemployed people in the country (a total of 44,043 as of the 1st of June 2004, the latest available figures) , and the unemployment rate in Wexford, is a total of 6,083 people- or only almost 1/8 as many as Dublin......

There are streets in Dublin with more unemployed people than there are in the entirety of Wexford- note page 9 of above report (statistics on Cumberland Street registrations).

But it really doesn't matter how many hard facts anyone here shows you- does it? You have gotten a bee in your bonnet- those Jackeens in Dublin are shortchanging the rest of the country......

Cop yourself on.

Victor

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Dublin-mindset is alive and well I see. I'm sorry but when I have looked in estate-agents windows in Dublin I find it incredibly hard to come across a sing one that isn't 700,000.

http://www2.myhome.ie/search/search_results.asp Dublin properties under €700,000 ... result 1 to 180....

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Even the sale of a 380,000 house would pay for a house far away from Dublin.

So what? There is a particular reason that that a Dublin house has a €380,000 price-tag. Desirability. There is a particular reason that that an Edenmore house has a €170,000 price-tag. Lack of desirability.

arcadegame2004 wrote:

Dublin only has a 2% unemployment-rate. Wexford county has a 9% unemployment-rate.

Let me be the first to scream "market forces!"

therecklessone

arcadegame2004 wrote:

The Dublin-mindset is alive and well I see.

As is culchie chip-on-the-shoulder resentment...

arcadegame2004 wrote:

I'm sorry but when I have looked in estate-agents windows in Dublin I find it incredibly hard to come across a sing one that isn't 700,000.

Think about that. No, think about it. Are you telling me that a person with say 5-10 years service in the civil service could afford the mortgage on a €700,000 house?

The_Conductor

therecklessone wrote:

Are you telling me that a person with say 5-10 years service in the civil service could afford the mortgage on a €700,000 house?

Allowing the standard rules (over 40k = 4 times annual + 1/2 secondary) as a rulestick for calculating- and being generous, stating that the person is a HEO with 15 years experience (and also presuming their partner is working fulltime)- the very maximum the person would be given by a reputable lending institution for mortgage purposes would be less than 240k- which is less than the average price of a house nationally- never mind in Dublin.

arcadegame2004 is living in his/her own little imaginery world.

Link to the current civil service payscales for Arcadegame2004's benefit- not that I imagine he/she is going to actually read them:

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/circulars/circular172004fig.htm

At the risk of stating the obvious- this thread is gone seriously off-topic IMHO. I'm beginning to wonder whether some of the replies are deliberate trolling......

cdebru

yeah have to agree
its meant to be about the merits or lack there of decentralisation
its supposed to be what is in the best interest of good government for Ireland
not about how nice wexford is or how happy civil servants are in limerick
now does arcadegame or cork have any arguements that could justify this madness
nothing to do with chips on shoulders
holidays house prices flexitime or their general dislike of civil servants and dublin

Victor

Reversing the logic, I wonder if people have to move to more expensive houses, will the government pay them?

cyclopath2001

I hear that houses in Killarney are more expensive than Dublin & in other towns the prices are being jacked up so as to profiteer from the incomers.

Expect people to be 'encouraged' to move rather than commute. The Government needs the money from the stamp duty & other taxes on house moves to pay for the scheme. Local authorities will slap on levies once the people have moved in.

Anyone know by how much will taxes have to increase?

Will hospitals & social services be closed in Dublin to help pay for for this scheme?

The_Conductor

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Will hospitals & social services be closed in Dublin to help pay for for this scheme?

After 7 years under McCreevy everything has been cut to the skin and bone. If more hospitals and social services are closed- there would be civil war. In any case- if you believe Tom Parlon- all civil servants are foaming at the bit, trying to get out of the capital. No financial recompense needed for anyone- as a matter of fact- it coins money all round..... Ye gods- wish I could have some of his happy pills....