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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    It is ridiculous that planning was allowed so close to the train line. No real forward thought from the planners on this. Irish Rail often weigh in on developments close to the line, and not sure if they made observations on a lot of these developments.

    Screenshot 2025-10-06 at 16.46.29.png Screenshot 2025-10-06 at 16.46.08.png Screenshot 2025-10-06 at 16.44.17.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    I see pinch points that might necessitate three tracks in some sections. Which shouldn't be too much of an issue.

    I'm not sure I agree with your optimism for a 30 min service to Belfast though.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Indeed, if they can cpo and demolish an apartment block for Metrolink, then they can cpo and demolish anything for Four North



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 scrappy-taxpayer


    WILD suggestion here but with the examples above, would it not be better to cut and cover? An additional track both sides and covered with a park/green area so it reduces the noise of the line and looks better? I don't know how much the line is below street level but looks semi-plausible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Just based on my experience in living in the area. Obviously the engineers know more, and while it is certainly possible, the cost will be exceptionally high.
    The bridge over Venetien Hall, and the Large wall needed in East Wall/Stoney Road make it a non-runner.

    Do you remember the "No Wall, No Way" slogans?

    Connolly is a bigger issue than having 4 tracks all the way to Malahide IMO. there is a wait of up to 7 minutes some days waiting for a platform to clear when coming from the North.

    I agree that another station in the Clongriffin config would certainly help, the problem is where to put it.

    I live in the area. The problem around Raheny, Harmonstown and Killester is that the embankments are very steep. And while on Google maps there might look like there is plenty of space, the reality is that there it not.

    Venetian Hall embankments are very steep, you could be looking at knocking down 4 apartment blocks.
    https://maps.app.goo.gl/PxGCdcNHvPZ2uMa48

    You also cut those people off as the bridge is replaced, (The bridge carries power and water, and is also the only road access, there is a lane that could be sorted though)

    You'd also need to move Fairview DART depot to somewhere else as there is absolutely 0 chance of Irish Rail being allowed to expand into a park.

    Same story with the new apartments on Raheny road, I don't know why they were granted persmission to build so close to the track.

    Ironically Golf course does offer an opportunity to add and overtaking type train station. However if Carin homes build to the edge of the track as it exists now, you may forget it.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    If you follow the tracks on Google Maps and use the measuring tool, I'd say a good 90 to 95% of it you could "easily" just drop quad tracks in. Frankly most of the line feels like it was built with space for quad tracking.

    There are a few pinch points where you would need to CPO some gardens or drop to triple track, but that doesn't seem too big of a deal. They trickier ones would be the stations needing to be widened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    @Citizen Six - I don’t see a lack of space in any of those:

    image.png image.png image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,263 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    On the topic of encroaching development on the railway line. It seems there is no lessons learned in that department. It's currently CIE policy to develop lands adjacent to Connolly and Heuston into residential and commercial use, but somehow it's also policy to more than double the number of trains at these stations by 2040 without adding new platforms or concourse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,173 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Unless you are a professional railway engineer you cannot answer this, and saying it won’t happen is just daft.

    I’d prefer to wait and see what they say - anything you may post is pure speculation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    As mention already
    The grade of the embankment is the issue
    Here's Venetion Hall (Thank god for 3D maps)

    image.png

    You can't widen that without knocking the bridge and the apartments on either side of the track



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,181 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The apartments may be underpinnable, depending on how deep if any basement levels they have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    You're correct that I cannot say for certain, I can make a well educated guess though.

    I think a more feasible option would probably be to go underground for metro/dart type services and leave the above ground for intercity commuter type services.

    Metrolink will be a great indicator on this.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I live in the area.

    As do I, I took a troll over to Killester Station yesterday to take a look at the area. Even took some pics!

    The problem around Raheny, Harmonstown and Killester is that the embankments are very steep. And while on Google maps there might look like there is plenty of space, the reality is that there it not.

    Venetian Hall embankments are very steep, you could be looking at knocking down 4 apartment blocks.
    https://maps.app.goo.gl/PxGCdcNHvPZ2uMa48

    Non of that is particularly difficult or insurmountable!

    You simply dig up those steep embankments and put in supporting walls. They already did similar as part of the quad tracking into Heuston Station. It is pretty standard stuff for rail engineering. The important part is that they own that land so no need to CPO, just earth works and engineering.

    Killester would probably be best to just move it South of Collins Avenue for various reasons already discussed. Yes, Raheny, Harmonstown would need to be expanded and probably CPO involved, but so what?!

    You'd also need to move Fairview DART depot to somewhere else as there is absolutely 0 chance of Irish Rail being allowed to expand into a park.

    A large new Depot is going to be built as part of DART+, which will most likely remove or greatly lesson the need for Fairview. No need to go near the park!

    Same story with the new apartments on Raheny road, I don't know why they were granted persmission to build so close to the track.

    So what? They are CPOing 70 apartments for Metrolink, if CPO is needed here they can do it too.

    As I said in another post, I'd say most of the line is suitable for easy quad tracking. It would be a sin to leave a few pinch points get in the way of that. If it doesn't happen now, it will be needed 20 years from now. So lets do it now before more homes are built near the line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    You're not wrong about CPO'ing the property but that will take years. The 70 apartments at tara I think are owned by one company and are rented out, it's easy to CPO something like that. (I could be wrong mind you)

    CPO'ing bits of property from private households is going to be way harder. (Look how hard it's been for Dublin Airport to get the land between the two runways).

    Also bare in mind that the line needs to be kept open while the work to exapnd is happening.

    Japan learned the lesson years ago, it's cheaper to build new railway line that upgrade exsiting line.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    There is plenty of space there. quad tracking only needs 19 meters (when not at stations).

    There is more then 40 meters of space to play with here:

    Screenshot 2025-10-06 at 17.49.31.png

    And this is what the area looks like from a bridge, plenty of space:

    Screenshot 2025-10-06 at 17.50.25.png

    That is just some earth works and retaining walls.

    I mean take a look at these apartments at the approach to Heuston:

    Screenshot 2025-10-06 at 17.55.14.png
    Post edited by bk on


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Nope, that apartments at Tara Street are owned separately by various owner-occupiers and small landlords!

    Japan upgrades and expands existing railway lines all the time! And a new line would require tunnelling which would be MUCH more expensive then the relatively easy job of quad tracking the Northern line.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,674 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    This is the type of thing you can do if needed, and it doesn't even look like this would be necessary given the space available there:

    Screenshot 2025-10-06 at 18.04.14.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,090 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I'd wager that there are absolutely no technical issues about quad tracking the northern line. Building retaining walls is bread and butter stuff for civil engineers. It's purely a money thing. It has to happen too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,776 ✭✭✭bennyx_o


    Without wanting to go too OT, the area where Killester DART station is is the largest Irish WW1 ex-servicemen housing estate. The Demesne, Middle Third & Abbeyfield were built between 1920-1923 for returning Irish soldiers who fought in WW1



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭PlatformNine


    Has there been any updates on the 4N feasibility report? Last I heard it was supposed to release sometime in 2025 but obviously that hasn't happened yet. At the very least I would hope it's getting close to publication?

    I do agree with a lot of what has been said though, it will be a lot of work, but I doubt there would be anything seriously technically challenging.

    If I had to guess the most notable works are going to at Howth Jnc. and Kilbarrack. The former I don't think would be technically challenging, but I think would be the single largest sub-project, as it almost definitely involves a major rebuild of the station. With plenty of space around the station I am hoping it wouldn't be too difficult to expand the station to 6 platforms, but either way platforms 1 and 2 can't survive as they are now. Kilbarrack however does concern me the most as I am not quite sure how they will approach it. No matter what though, a few houses would need to be knocked and even then, I doubt they would propose a 4-platform station, probably something more like the proposed Kylemore Rd Station.



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    No update that I've heard of.

    The bridge over Clontarf Road, just before Clontarf Dart Station itself, is also going to be a sticking point. I believe that it's a listed bridge, and while they could just put another bridge to one side of it, there may be some historic groups arguing that it would block a historic view.

    Other than that, I think that it's standard engineering challenges, plus a few CPOs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭PlatformNine


    For being a listed structure, I would have liked for it not to be covered in ads. I should have known it was a listed structure, that doesn't surprise me, but imo ads on a listed structure is just shameful.

    From an engineering perspective I am not sure how they would solve that other than just building a second visibly identical bridge next to it? Hopefully that won't be a problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44 thosewhoknow


    There was a listed bridge (or maybe two) on the Heuston line, but that didn't stop them from knocking it down for quad-tracking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,018 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I'm all for preserving our built heritage, but not it if obstructs the improvement of the service that it was built to facilitate in the first place.

    Put your money where yer mouth is... Subscribe and Save Boards!

    https://subscriptions.boards.ie/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    In this case, I think it will be the cheaper option for the bridge to be preserved, and a modern one built beside it to carry the extra tracks over the road. The existing structure will be untouched, so no issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,504 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    It won't be possible to excavate and build retaining walls when the only space you have to work on is a steep slope, literally up against a busy rail line with overhead electrical wires and little to no access for long stretches.

    This is off-topic for this thread and should be discussed elsewhere but using the Google maps measure tool in this case is the height of naivety.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,090 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    They "build" the retaining wall first by driving sheet pile through the embankment and then you excavate the embankment afterwards. There will be a lot of weekend closures to get it done. Heavy equipment can operate under the de-energised wires. My local station is currently closed (until the end of April!) while the Berlin Spandau to Hamburg main line is completely rebuilt. They swung in several points panels all under the wires last week. They just need to be careful and possibly build a custom rig but it's possible. If it really is impossible to do in a single step, a portion of the embankment can be removed by driving a sheet pile wall at a depth into the embankment wide enough to accomodate the heavier/taller pile driver that couldn't fit under the wires…..but it would be easier and probably cheaper to have weekend closures/reduced timetable and remove the catenary in the section being driven.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,504 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Not going to get into a big discussion on this as it is off-topic but weekend closures would achieve nothing. You couldn't operate any machinery that close to the operational rail line and live electrical cables. Even with full closure every weekend, it would take a decade. You'd get very little down in a weekend with it so spot/start, and you have to do both sides. That's assuming you can do such heavy engineering works with affecting the power supply, signaling cables, drainage, etc. needed to allow trains to continue operating at all.

    Sheetpiling would have to be done from the top given the height of the embankment but there is no flat working space there. To sheetpile from the bottom, you'd need a very big machine and you'd have to remove all cables and supports for it to operate. But in reality, it would be unlikely to be sheetpiled, more likely a permanent contiguous piled wall, which would also be a large machine and would need a level, safe working space at the top of the embankment, which could only come from every garden bordering the rail line.

    And that's before you actually start excavating anything, which obviously can't be done from on the slope itself. And all spoil excavated has to be taken away and new materials brought in, so you need access to the public roads, which is a few narrow bridges several metres above the trackbed. So at each bridge you'll need a ramp for trucks to drive up/down.

    People here are seriously underestimating the scale of the works required.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,090 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    If it's as hopeless as you're suggesting the four north study won't take long to appear one would think.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,369 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I'm sure the FourNorth study will just be a one page document saying, "this is impossible, move on".

    Solutions exist for this because other places have done similar works in constrained sites.

    Maybe the solution is too expensive to be justified, maybe the CBA for it works out just dandy. But impossible seems pretty unlikely. The existing DART+ southwest will have to do works of a similar nature (albeit over a much shorter section, and at the worst sections, not constrained by housing) between Parkwest and Heuston, perhaps the detailed design/works there might inform on solutions?

    Boards is in danger of closing very soon, if it's yer thing, go here (use your boards.ie email!)

    👇️ 👇️



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