DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796346#Comment_123796346

That isn't really how urban development works, these sort of business will naturally end up being pushed out of the city.

They require cheap rent to operate, but the rent certainly won't remain cheap as the city expands and if high quality public transport is built next to them. The land owners will of course up the rents and/or sell the land for development.

Of course they should do mixed development, retail on the first two floors, with either apartments or offices above. Properly done, you will likely end up with more people working in this area then currently is, plus thousands of people housed.

I will say however these sort of business need to be supported and the government and councils should perhaps develop new business parks further outside the city and help existing business move to them.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796545#Comment_123796545

Exactly.

If they're serious about the 15 minute city concept, they'll have offices and commercial spaces there also. Also schools, shops, restaurants, sports facilities. It'll require a well thought out masterplan.

It's not the most efficient use of land to keep it light industrial.

It was the edge of the city decades ago with cheap land and rent.

Not anymore.

Pete_Cavan

To get back on topic, I don't think facilitating additional access at the Le Fanu Road end would be particularly difficult/expensive. Have a link to Le Fanu Road along the northern side only, people can access the island platform using the proposed stairs/lifts. Have a ramp only (no additional lift), just have a gradually sloping path from the end of the platform up to Le Fanu Road.

It's also interesting to note that the drawing states "EXTENT OF FUTURE LUAS BRIDGE WIDENING", with dashed lines several metres either side of the existing Kylemore Road bridge.

murphaph

This is going to be a really busy station once Luas arrives. Not many passengers heading towards the city will sit on the tram rather than changing to DART here.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798303#Comment_123798303

Depends on where they are going to surely?

The tram will likely be preferable for anyone going to locations west of O’Connell Bridge - I can’t imagine many of those people switching to a DART to Heuston and then another tram?

The DART will obviously be preferable for those heading to locations east of O’Connell Bridge.

p_haugh

Was mentioned on a comment on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Dublin/comments/1nbj3cd/comment/nd27jcs/), but this will also allow for an alternative direct UCD connection by switching to the S4 outside the station, compared to heading into Heuston and then needing to get 2 buses (or pay extra for an Expresso). Would still require non-dart train passengers to switch at whichever station(s) are kept as an Intercity transfer is the only thing.

From a very brief look, for rush hour tomorrow morning:

1. Heuston→UCD is scheduled to take 50 minutes to an hour, but relies on switching to the E-spine/39A (or B-spine by the time the station opens). Outside of peak time it still looks to take around 45-50 minutes.
2. Kylemore→UCD is scheduled to take around 1 hour to 1 hour 10 mins, depending on the time. This would be a direct connection on the S4, so you save on needing to switch buses. Outside of rush hour, it looks to take around 40-45 mins.

With more bus priority rolling out in that part of Dublin, there is potential for the S4 time to be improved also.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798314#Comment_123798314

Yeah of course it will depend on where they are going but a large majority will be heading for the city's office blocks and they are, for the most part, not along the red line alignment eastbound until it hits the Irish Life Centre. That location and everything west of it for a couple of kms is going to be be reached much quicker by changing to a Connolly or Tara bound DART. Everything west of there will be reached quicker on a Spencer Dock bound DART, even if you have to change back onto a red line tram yes. To the big office blocks around GCD that will obviously be much faster on a DART and post metrolink taking a DART to Glasnevin and metro to O'Connell street is likely to be much faster than sitting on the tram to get there.

Some people will choose to stay on the tram if their particular journey is faster that way. I suspect the numbers doing that will be quite small. I actually think that in time, the red line itself will branch off to Kylemore Road station. Post DART Underground sending most red line services to Kylemore Road would be the logical thing to do in fact. You would combine the fast bit of the Red Line with a fast DART and have people in the city centre (any part of it) much faster than the tram.

DART+ is going to be a game changer and see people change the way they commute in west Dublin especially. A lot of the bus routes will be re-oriented to serve the DART lines and not the city. Luas will be no different in time.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796574#Comment_123796574

The 15 minute city is a nice concept but I am somewhat wary of it as being more utopian in ideals than comporting to human behaviour. Clusters are really important, it gives an area a character and reason for outsiders to go there. One Michelin restaurant will drive some interest but having 10 or so reasonable quality ones will actually result in far more interest. It would be great to see some imagination with the light industrial to keep some of it there. Car dealerships are a complete waste of space in this kind of location but flooring isn’t.

One thing I’d love to see in this area (between the Paek West to the Kylemore stop) is a new 30k venue for the city.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123798763#Comment_123798763

If the Lucan Luas heads in the St Stephen’s Green direction or the Charlemount direction then it will definitely hold onto a lot of passengers.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799225#Comment_123799225

It makes sense as a concept that everything you need be within a 15 minute travel time by foot, cycle or public transport. It's just good planning really.

I'm not even sure our newer planned developments have this now though.

Ballymun in the 60s would be an extreme example of how not to plan a new neighborhood. They didn't even have shops so people set up shops in vans.

But obviously not everyone will be able to find employment within the 15 minute radius as that's unrealistic.

Do you mean an indoor events arena of 30k?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799225#Comment_123799225

The "15 minute city" thing is simply an Americanisation of a concept we all know and understand here in Europe for thousands of years. It is simply the concept of villages and towns.

It is the idea that you can walk out your front door and within 15 minutes of walking/cycling/public transport you should be able to get to a shop/pub/cafe/restaurant/gym/creche/school/dentist/doctors office etc.

No one is saying that you live all your life within 15 minutes or that you might not commute into a city for your job etc. But that it shouldn't take you more then 15 minutes to get to the basic necessities of everyday life.

It is a response to American suburbs that literally have nothing but houses, where you might have to jump in a car and drive 30 minutes to get even a bottle of milk!

If you strip away the Americanisation of the term and say you want to live in somewhere like Rathmines, Ranelagh, Drumconrda, Howth, etc. it is basically the same thing.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799264#Comment_123799264

Afaik the concept doesn’t include public transport but it should. My point is more that planning can be somewhat idealistic, which can lead to empty commercial units below.

A stadium / venue like the one in Dunedin. Retractable roof, multi use. 30k capacity. It might not happen for decades but it’s something I’d like to see considered as that area is close to the core but has nothing like that there.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799401#Comment_123799401

It’s from a French professor, I know what it is.

I am merely backing up the point that there is something to keeping some light industrial in the area as part of mixed used. As the area you can get flooring in with lots of competition, it draws people in and gives it a USP. Ranelagh isn’t Ranelagh because it has one of everything. The fact that you can jump on the Luas and get to places which have other things you need is what makes it liveable.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799411#Comment_123799411

Who would be the anchor tenant?

St Pats maybe and Dublin GAA?

St Pats stadium is a good location but no room to expand or funding either.

I agree government or councils should fund stadiums and then used by multiple sports teams and other uses. They're empty most of the time anyway. Fans love their own grounds though so you'll always have opposition.

Shels should really share the new Dalymount but I bet they'd never go for it.

I'm not sure Dublin needs another arena for music and events like that though. I'm not sure though, maybe there is a need.

L1011

Shels were offered to share the new Dalymount and were vociferously against it, so no need to bet.

Dublin GAA don't need another stadium; they barely use Parnell as it is.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799411#Comment_123799411

I guess if you include public transport like a Metro, then the radius of 15 minutes is so large that it defeats the purpose.

For example once the Metro goes into Ballymun, then the city center and the Airport and Swords are all within 15 minutes, almost.

But really even now, Ballymun is still short of many basic amenities and services and facilities, despite all the investment.

It's a good concept but lots of it is just common sense when planning but other aspects are unrealistic such as being able to get educated and work within 15 minutes.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799450#Comment_123799450

I don’t think you’d have an anchor tenant. The GAA could be if they ever looked beyond the GAA but won’t.

15 x GAA fixtures a year (Jan-Feb window of awful weather for League games and some Championship)

6 x Rugby games (1-2 Leinster Rugby and also a few Irish Women’s National team games)

10 x Irish football games (4 x Dublin derby LOI games, 1 x Men’s International, balance of Women’s Internationals)

8 x Indoor / Outdoor concerts

That’s just musing. You don’t actually need that many events to make it economical. Look at CommBank Stadium in Western Sydney for example (funded by local government). A couple of big events a month along with some events / corporate stuff makes these places pay for themselves.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799485#Comment_123799485

It's still possible they'll end up using Dalymount.

If they can't get funding to expand Tolka and Bohs are selling out 8000 capacity Dalymount every week, then I'd imagine they'd be tempted.

I remember there was talk that Dublin GAA needed a mid size stadium, between Parnell and Croke Park in capacity. That's why I suggested it.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799524#Comment_123799524

The lease stuff that's been done for Tolka has basically closed the door on that - there'll be no funding made available for them to back. Shels have made their bed, and they appear to be entirely happy with it.

Parnell is nearly 8k already; a next sized up stadium would be too big for a LOI team - currently at least.

Citizen Six

Nice background into 15 minute cites. Apologies for going off topic.

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/605-15-minute-city/

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799523#Comment_123799523

CommBank has two tenants according to Wiki, but yeah I agree it's not absolutely necessary.

Do Dublin play all their league games in Croke or some in Parnell? Hurling also?

There definitely seems a need for a mid size stadium.

Also for music.

The 3 Arena is 13,000 and then the next size is Croke Park or the Aviva? Is that correct? Or is the RDS in-between.

Edit: RDS is 40,000 for concerts but that's outdoor.

So maybe there's a need for an in-between size indoor arena for music and other events like MMA or other things.

It's a pretty location to have it there as it's accessible to the rest of the Ireland but is also on Dublin City public transport routes.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799566#Comment_123799566

There's a private proposal for an in-between indoor music venue

We also need something between the Olympia and the 3Arena that isn't sodding Simmonscourt, the venue where acoustics go to die. This would have been the Theatre Royal if it had survived.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799530#Comment_123799530

The new co-op live in Manchester is 20,000 and so is Madison square garden, so maybe that's the sweet spot.

Although maybe it's not possible for an indoor arena to be suitable for music as well as GAA and football.

It's better to specialize.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799583#Comment_123799583

There's also the proposal for a multi-use winter sports & entertainment arena in Cherrywood, but that has a standing capacity of 8000 (3arena has a capacity of ~13000 seated + standing).

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/fresh-images-reveal-plans-for-dublins-first-ever-winter-sports-arena/a1737711195.html

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799613#Comment_123799613

Which would probably be competitive with Simmonscourt for bad acoustics, as well as size.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799523#Comment_123799523

Some points on that.

Football and rugby on a pitch big enough for GAA would be horrible.

Leinster are contracted to play in the RDS (which will be 23k when redeveloped) until 2047. Other games will continue to be in the Aviva.

Mens international football (and rugby) matches have to be played in the Aviva under the conditions of the stadium sponsorship.

30k is far too big for the LOI (even Dublin derbies) and women's rugby.

Pete_Cavan

Another page of almost exclusively off-topic posts 🙄

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123799566#Comment_123799566

Sorry yes they do, but in terms of events it’s barely 30 a year. For sure you’d need to have commitments from codes before signing up.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123800483#Comment_123800483

Leinster are contracted to play a minimum number of games there, not all their games.

The agreement with Aviva runs out at the end of the year, so there is actually options beyond that for men’s games (women’s don’t count).

I am not calling for all LOI games to be played there, just an alternating Dublin derby for each club each season. The growth in the LOI has been substantial, you can see this through the Bohs / Shamrock Rovers game last year.

In terms of GAA and football/rugby, agree with you there. I’d like to see that incorporated into any design of the stadium.

Also I am talking down the way here for this, I don’t expect it in the next decade. DART+ will probably be the first thing that gets built here in the next 5 years. There’s the Lucan Luas and all sorts to follow.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123801634#Comment_123801634

The art of conversation.