DART+ (DART Expansion)

cgcsb

The layout is interesting, the fast tracks are fenced off, no platform on the fast down track and exit and entry by the north only.

So from this there's no possibility of using the fast track for 'operational flexibility' or maybe that will come when the fast tracks are electrified. Disappointing that there is no additional exit to the south but it's not that big a deal in this case. There are much more serious permeability issues around the Irish rail network. Thr Cabra station exit/entry situation is far more irritating, especially if you had any hopes of interchange with cabra luas

Kermit.de.frog

Why do they keep enclosing the pedestrian bridges in those cages? I could understand if the main objective is stopping scrotes from throwing stuff off (but then all bridges everywhere would be caged) but I'm not sure they do a lot for safety perception of customers especially at night. Howth Junction looks like a prison.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795164#Comment_123795164

I doubt that the platform would extend all the way to Le Fanu Road. Kylemore Park has private businesses all along it that would make any access difficult.

outlyer

All the info here:

Iarnród Éireann Projects and Investments - New Stations

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/new-stations/kylemore-station

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795242#Comment_123795242

Agreed, plus it's not far off 500m between the pair of bridges so I can't imagine a 300m+ walkway being constructed for the purpose of an additional entry/exit point.

Woah

Interesting to see some of the trees along the corridor will seemingly be retaining, the dart + drawings had indicated they would all be cleared

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795362#Comment_123795362

The IE map suggests that the site will extend over halfway to the road behind it. It will be well under 200m to the nearest access road behind it if that's the case. Furthermore, while there's private businesses on Kylemore Park, they're warehouses in nature with plenty of space between them for what could be a fairly non-intrusive site intervention. Of course, IE are determined to continue their long held tradition of poor station access at their new stations as they have at their existing stations.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795362#Comment_123795362

But why not? It's the cheapest way you'll ever find of extending the catchment area. Not just to the immediate area, but to potential bus routes on Le Fanu road.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795461#Comment_123795461

Unless I'm looking at the schematic drawing incorrectly, it looks like the eastbound platform will extend a fair bit less than halfway between Kylemore and Le Fanu bridges. The east bound platform extends further west than the westbound platform but it still leaves a gap of over 260m whilst the distance from Le Fanu bridge to the end of the westbound platform is about 300m. Of course, additional lifts and another footbridge would be also required to allow travel between both platforms because if only the currently planned footbridge and lefts are in place, there's a walk of nearly 500m just to reach the footbridge from Le Fanu bridge.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795568#Comment_123795568

Because the majority of healthy people are inherently lazy. I was in a pub on Camden Street in Dublin on Friday evening. After that, I was getting a bus from Bus Aras. How did I get from A to B? I walked. I'd be pretty confident to say that the vast majority of healthy people would not consider that to be a walkable journey and that a taxi and/or tram would be required.

I've no doubt that a 300m plus pathway would be used but due to the mindset of a lot of people, that 300m would be considered too far a walk by many and would take too much time, even though it would be likely to be quicker than going from A to B via an alternative method.

I know of quite a few young, fit and healthy people who will get a tram from Bus Aras to Abbey Street. It's about 500m distance and is walkable in 5 minutes without much effort but to them, that's too far to walk.

Brian CivilEng

Another morning this morning where I missed a bus on Collins’ Avenue by 30s after getting off a DART in Killester. The six minute walk is a killer for a bus stop 100m from the end of the platform.
It’s understandable in a legacy station like Killester, but single exits like this really should not be acceptable for newly proposed stations like Kylemore or Cabra.

Ben D Bus

I noted the mention of distance to bus stops, but I'd be surprised if new S4 stops aren't installed on Kylemore Bridge at some point to coincide with the opening of the station.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795676#Comment_123795676

I don't disagree about Killester - it's a good candidate for a second exit, but there is a far bigger distance involved here, including a proposed crossover between slow and fast lines that would have to be negotiated.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795461#Comment_123795461

I'm sure that those businesses will be delighted that you've decided that their property is available to Irish Rail to do as it wishes. We need to be realistic here - that would involve CPO, which means significantly increasing cost.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123795568#Comment_123795568

Just to be clear - there are no bus routes planned for Le Fanu Road under BusConnects. The G1 uses Clifden Road further along.

murphaph

I think we need far better permeability everywhere to be honest. We should not allow cul de sac style housing estates with no permeability for active travel to reach destinations or onward public transport. Apartment complexes should include permeability measures as part of their planning permissions. We should really be setting a good example at the stations themselves though. Single entrance stations where there's an obvious location for a second or third exit are no longer fit for purpose in 2025, especially if it's a case of low hanging fruit to add an entrance at the other end of the platform. In this particular case it doesn't necessarily have to (initially) even provide access to the down platform from (in the case Le Fanu Road). In the mornings most people from that area are likely to want access to the up platform and a cheap and cheerful strip of tarmac and associated lighting and a simple gate at Le Fanu road would provide. I know it would in reality still cost a couple of hundred grand to provide but that's cheap really to add several hundred houses to the immediate catchment area.

Anyway, it's still great to see plans moving ahead for this station so I don't want to come across as overly negative or labour this point further. A second access to Le Fanu Road can always be provided later.

LXFlyer

I’d just remind people that we are at a point where DPER is withholding funding from DoT/NTA for things like improvements to bus services such as the Bus Éireann 132 and 370.

That would suggest to me that they may take a similar approach to capex - meaning that new stations are going to have to be built at the lowest projected costs to get past DPER going forward - whether we like it or not, political realities need to be factored into this.

orangerhyme

Great news for Ballyfermot. Gentrification will happen definitely with such good transport links.

This should accelerate development in the industrial estates nearby.

I think the LDA have plans for the CIE land also.

At the risk of causing uproar, the traveller site at Labre Park should really be upgraded or moved.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796156#Comment_123796156

We do still need workplaces such as those around Kylemore Road to be within reach of the city - expecting everything to move outside the M50 isn’t realistic as it creates even more traffic.

The LDA can have as many plans as they want, but operational considerations should take precedence when it comes to transport properties.

As for gentrification, the station at Cherry Orchard didn’t do anything for that in the area, and it ended up being moved to a more central location in Parkwest.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796168#Comment_123796168

Lots of empty space there already according to Google maps.

Lots of development happening on Naas Rd already.

It's very density so in terms of traffic, it's better to have 1000s of people living there using public transport.

Cherry Orchard is beyond gentrification but East Ballyfermot is already gentrifying and it'll spread westwards in time.

Bodan

My only complaint would be it doesn't seem to be designed for Irish weather. Its a cheap and cheerful station that would look good on the continent.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796213#Comment_123796213

Again though, you do need workplaces such as those around Kylemore Road and in Bluebell / JFK industrial estates within the city area - sending everything further out to places beyond the M50 to be replaced by housing isn’t the right solution either.

I entirely get the housing problem but shifting businesses away further out isn’t the right approach either. You need a mix of workplaces and residential accommodation.

As for “lots of empty space”, there’s a couple of areas along the Kylemore Road near the canal, but that’s about it.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796278#Comment_123796278

In terms of numbers, it's better to have medium to high density housing than low density, light industrial.

Is it better to having a greater number of people with a shorter commute and better quality of life or a far fewer number of people working there?

They can still have workplaces there. Most of the space for offices in the city center is almost gone now. The North Docks are full. So there'll be demand for more office space in the future and here is ideal.

The "City Edge" project is huge also so will require everything like schools, shops etc...So there'll be plenty of jobs.

This will happen gradually anyway over time anyway. It's too good a location with good transport.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796318#Comment_123796318

I happen to believe that there is still a place for small light industrial businesses in the city area and I don’t accept that they should be banished to the fringes. We need a mix.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796346#Comment_123796346

Look at the size of that industrial area on Google maps, from Ballymount up to Ballyfermot.

It's huge.

It won't turn into apartments and offices over night.

It'll happen gradually over decades and decades.

The Naas Rd area will happen first as it's right on the Luas. There's already lots of developments in planning there.

I'd imagine the empty spaces by this new Dart Station could be soon also but who knows really.

Woah

I agree that I hope they keep it a mix of industry and residential. There is quite a difference between lower ballyfermot and cherry orchard though to be fair.

Ben D Bus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796278#Comment_123796278

A lot of Kylemore Road and a bit of Kylemore Park is made up of the likes of furniture/tiles/flooring retailers.

I think it's an ideal location for ground floor retail with 4/5/6 floors of apartments above. It would be a great destination to visit by DART for some Sunday afternoon furniture buying.

The motor trade, which also takes up a substantial part of Kylemore has no business being inside the M50. It's already largely gone from the Naas Road around the Luas stop.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796369#Comment_123796369

It will be a mix anyway for a long time by necessity as it's a huge area of industrial parks. It won't just happen over night.

East and Central Ballyfermot has been gentrifying since the Celtic Tiger days.

Cherry Orchard is beyond gentrification at the moment but maybe in future things will improve.

Ben D Bus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796382#Comment_123796382

What do you mean by gentrifying? It's a genuine question. Do you mean wealthier people moving in and less well off people being forced out? If you want people objecting to a DART station and the development of south of the railway line then I suggest you go to the public consulatation this week in Ballyfermot Library and share your excitement at the gentrification it will bring :)

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796278#Comment_123796278

I suppose it depends on what the business is. A lot of the stock there is warehousing. Warehousing employs relatively few people for the volume of the building they work in. Is it worth retaining 10 warehousing jobs on a site that if rezoned and redeveloped could house hundreds of people in close proximity to excellent transport to the city? I'd argue that those warehouses were built largely at a time when they were on the edge of the city as it was back then. They weren't built in the city, the city grew around them. It's kind of a natural progression for them to migrate further out. It's a trend we see time and time again in cities around the world really. There could certainly be an argument made for the handful of actual factories in the area that are employing large numbers. Moving those away seems a lot less desirable to me alright.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796398#Comment_123796398

The rise in house prices will assuage their fears.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123796406#Comment_123796406

In terms of efficiency of space and quality of life and just sheer numbers, it's better to have 1000s of people living there and commuting to work.

Whoever owns the land will sell to developers anyway as it's more profitable.

It's a moot point anyway as it will happen anyway over time but will take decades.

The same thing is planned for the industrial estate in Glasnevin which is huge also.

If you look at Dublin City center and docks area, there's actually very little development land left.

The glass bottle site and North Docks will be finished soon. Other big sites like Deveney Gardens and Bailey Gibson have started.

The next development land will be the industrial estates in the SW and the one in Glasnevin.