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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 260 ✭✭Bsharp


    there isn't abundant resources available to the Department of Transport, can't even guarantee all of DART+ will be funded never mind any other heavy rail investment.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I obviously don't have numbers, but the AIRR looked into it and even they said it would be very expensive and not justifiable, for the AIRR:

    The Review has considered interventions to enable faster and more frequent journeys between Rosslare Europort and
    Dublin, including adding passing loops, tunnelling through Bray Head, developing a new railway along the M11 corridor, and building a new line for DART services along the N11 corridor. A more direct route between Cork and Waterford was also considered but found to be impractical due to the geography of this corridor.

    Many of these solutions would be very costly and are unlikely to be justifiable as most railways in this region would not be
    expected to support more than one or two trains per hour in each direction. It appears that the best way forward for
    boosting connectivity in the South East of Ireland in the shorter term is to introduce an hourly shuttle service between
    Wexford and Greystones, with DART services to be extended to Wicklow.

    This is from the experts in this area and generally the people most positively predisposed to rail.

    The reality is the ideas being proposed here simply aren't part of either the National Development Plan or the AIRR. While I won't say it will never happen, it certainly isn't going to happen in the next 30 years or so.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Hell they haven't even signed off on replacing the existing DART fleet even though it is more then 40 years old!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Can we get a "everything remotely DART+ related but isn't actually DART+" thread?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Perhaps, but then watch the growth move to Wexford. Allowing more homes in Dublin is the actual answer.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭spillit67


    In fairness DART+ Coastal South is up in the air, hence the discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 94 ✭✭Crakepottle?


    Does anyone know what is happening with Dart south west? Thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Fully approved, tenders issued



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,834 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Might be a good place to provide a recap:

    DART+ Coastal North: Approved in full, 2025-08-21 (13 months in planning process)
    DART+ Southwest: Approved in full, 2024-11-22 (20 months in planning process)
    DART+ West: Approved without depot, 2024-07-31 (24 months in planning process)
    DART+ Fleet: New stock in testing, awaiting cabinet approval to order replacements for 8100s.

    DART+ Coastal South: Effectively suspended. No design, no RO applied for.

    The new depot location for West is to be submitted for approval later, but it’s claimed that it won’t delay the delivery of DART+ West.

    (I wouldn’t read too much into the reducing times in planning, DART+West was the most complex project with the most re-construction needed, Coastal North had the least)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,919 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Coastal South: they do appear to be proceeding with the Bray/Greystones/Wicklow bits - Dart to Wicklow Town has been confirmed (albeit with the date pushed back to 2030) and the design for Greystones has appeared in a couple of presentations.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    South coastal has been split in two


    Bray - Wicklow there are plans for works at Bray, some double tracking near Greystones and the charging gear and related upgrades at Wicklow and some minor works at Kilcoole


    A lot of this can go through normal planning channels but the twin tracking bit likely needs a RO unless the original act which empowered construction had provision for 2 tracks


    work



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭pnott


    I would be surprised if coastal south happens especially any big infrastructure works such as double track from Bray Head to Greystones/Wicklow. Best we can hope for is new trains really. From what I have heard from my source in the NTA there is very little cash for any big stuff. NTA were preparing to launch weekend services through the Phoenix Park Tunnel, last minute the Minister rang them to say scrap it no money.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,412 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    A preferred option for DART+ Coastal South is ready. Public consultation this year.

    As mentioned before, it has been split into two. It makes sense. These large railway orders are too risky. Making the very achievable passing loops near Bray Head dependent on the smooth removal of level crossings in Sandymount was always a bad idea and I'm glad they've come to their senses. Bundling everything into one project causes more issues than it solves.

    Look at Cork. They're actually building things. Just think, they could have bundled it all into one big project called CART+ and still be doing consultations now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,116 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    If DART+ Coastal South is being split into two projects; which part of it will include the construction of the additional turnback platform at Dún Laoghaire?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    No turnback at DL beyond the existing provision



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,919 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    there were 2 turnbacks up until quite recently (10 years?), presumably they decided they didn't need a second one.

    A preferred option for DART+ Coastal South is ready. Public consultation this year.

    we've been hearing the consultation is imminent for about 2 years.

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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    It makes perfect sense to me and I think it is a very good approach to large projects like this.

    I was already very happy that DART+ was broken down into separate N/W/SW/S projects and Railway orders and it really does make a lot of sense to break the Coastal South project into two further projects/RO.

    The Dublin to Bray section is going to unfortunately be very contentious with certain powerful elements of the public and will be a tough battle! The Bray south section should be relatively uncontentious with the public, no point risking that project with the battle that the Northern half will be.

    I'm very happy that they have taken the same approach with BusConnects, you have an overall vision on the end goal, but break it up into "smaller", easier to digest projects.

    It is a pity you can't do the same with Metrolink, but I do think they have done everything possible to derisk it too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28 LastCall




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,834 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The difference is that the Cork commuter railway doesn’t cut through wealthy suburbia and its track upgrade didn’t need major road bridges to be re-built.

    Also, the Cork project has not reached the point where electrification is being requested - that request goes in next year. When that RO goes in, trust me there will be people who will complain about how the track overhead wires will impinge on their enjoyment of the view of the mud-flats of the Lee estuary, the N25, Irish Distillers’ yards, or whatever. It’s likely that this will be a 25 kV AC electrification because the northern part of the CACR is shared with the main Cork-Dublin intercity route, so there will be only a couple of substations for the whole network.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 260 ✭✭Bsharp


    I think the split will be helpful from funding perspective as money comes in drips and drabs.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Cork is straightforward as the scale of interventions is minimal. Midleton was built for 2 tracks originally so putting in the second track is straightforward. There hasn't been the heavy densification around the railway lines so few properties impacted. Its almost entirely green fields.

    There is a well grounded fear that pushing forward with closure of level crossings in D4 will be a battle fought out in the High Court by well funded locals. IE saw how easy the NTA folded on the Merrion Gates plans so know they are on their own. The Coolmine/Ashtown battle took a long time to get over the line. The current DART line is spec'ed for 12 tph so the approach will be to simply keep the gates down



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,834 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The level crossing gates should be kept down to facilitate the most efficient use of the service. 12tph is per direction, so that’s up to 24 crossings an hour. Times 2 minutes a crossing = 48 minutes out of every hour in peak time. That would facilitate about 15~20,000 people travelling, and their needs far outweigh those of the fifty people in forty-eight cars who might be kept waiting for the gates.

    Frankly, I don’t think it’s actually the neighbours who would object to removal of the crossings: they’re starting from one side or other of the crossing, so it’s no big deal to drive a longer way around if needed - their primary need is to have good pedestrian access through the new crossing. My guess is that the most vocal NIMBYs have “back yards” that are nowhere near the works: they’re people from the wider district who don’t want their handy rat-run to and from the office taken away from them.

    Closing the crossing at Lansdowne road is made difficult because of nine residential properties that would be cut off by any changes. Honestly, anyone who objects should just get CPO’d - even at 2-3x market value it’s probably cheaper than any engineering solution that would keep their access open. The tracks can’t go below the road here as they have to cross the Dodder immediately south of the station. A road bridge with he necessary clearance would be too steep to build.

    The section from Serpentine Avenue to Strand Road can really only be fixed by lowering the tracks (and lowering both Sandymount and Sydney Parade stations too). That’s about 3 km of track rebuilding, but the logistics around maintenance and stabling would probably mean shutting the whole coastal line south of Lansdowne road for the duration.

    It’s not easy. And it won’t be cheap.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,056 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    The problem with just leaving the gates down for 48 minutes an hour is that there will be a lot more incursions by drivers determined to get across before the gates come down again in a few seconds. Long term there is no way to have a reliable system with these level crossings in operation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    What is the legal minimum time the gates have to be open per day? Simply open them between 2am and 4am and close them the rest of the day.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,056 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I'd be amazed if the original railway order allows that. Such a loophole would surely have been used by railway companies in the past to save money if they only had to pay a gatekeeper for 2 hours of work a day (night) and leave the gates locked for the other 22 hours or whatever.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,904 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The line was created by Act of Parliament not Railway Order, it is approaching 200 years old!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    The Railway Regulation Act 1842 basically says gates should be down unless a vehicle needs to cross.

    The specific amendments made in 1984 for these specific crossings on the DART line basically say "the gates should only be shut when a train is approaching" nothing in it about how long they need to be kept open for vehicles per any unit of time I can see.

    If that is the current legislation in force (maybe its been superceded?) then technically they could just upgrade the signalling and run trains at such frequency that the gates have to constantly be closed, then run them less frequently at night so they remain open enough not to run afoul of any "closing a public highway without approval" legislation.

    There's a Statutory Instrument for each crossing AFAIK mostly just a copy/paste job.

    10.(a) the barriers shall be kept in the raised position except when vehicles passing along the railway have occasion to cross the said road

    10.(i) the barriers shall remain lowered until the completion of the passage through the crossing of the rail vehicle or vehicles which the Board intends to pass through the crossing while the barriers are lowered, and shall then commence to rise to the raised position

    So just intend to pass another train within whatever has been deemed the safe operating window of the gates, continuously, for the whole day.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    It feels a little wild to have specific statutory instruments for each/many level crossings (going through the amendments/SIs to the railway regulations act there are SIs specific to a number of railway crossings)

    Do they mean that all other LCs are just subject to the original "remain closed until a vehicle needs to use them" legislation?

    They all seem "almost" copy pasted with slight adjustments. Why not just have a regulation on how level crossings operate and then if you need special adjustments for specific ones handle them individually?

    One of the latest (1991) references Oranmore LC and says the alarms and barriers need to start going no less than 37 seconds before a train passes the crossing.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭spillit67


    The solution to closing them was the Eastern Bypass which should never have been shelved. Every move to restrict traffic just leads to it being moved elsewhere.

    I have more sympathy for the residents here than most as the area is basically a key national route for cars and rail, along with the demands for the scenic cycle route. There is no coherent policy here.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,857 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Once the level crossings are closed elsewhere i.e. Dart+ W, surely IE will be able to produce a statistic that says 97% of level crossing incidents occurred at these crossings, so the health and safety issues take paramount importance.



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