DART+ (DART Expansion)

loyatemu

tunnelling with no stations would be cheaper and easier than going around Bray Head IMO (going around would also require a lot of heavy engineering, land acquisition and demolition and you'd have to start from south of Greystones and rejoin north of Bray so it's a long diversion) But I don't think either option will be looked at in my lifetime.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752074#Comment_123752074

"Express" DART services will mess up the scheduling of trains every five minutes. Can't see them ever happening.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123751926#Comment_123751926

because all trains need redundancy and capacity to be able to pass one another as otherwise you end up with a situation where one train brings the whole lot to a hault.

that's even with a uniform timetable.
passing loops wouldn't cause delays as it would increase capacity further.

murphaph

As the population south of Bray continues to grow, the CBA figures for double tracking (tunnel or new alignment) get more and more attractive. I have zero skin in this particular game. I think I know two people who live out that way and neither is ever likely to use public transport but I can't help but think the CBA for a westerly alignment isn't much worse than the CBA for a new build alignment from Kilcock/Maynooth over to Adamstown and that project is often spoken about here as a given. If you just bite the bullet on it you open up a lot of land for housing close to Dublin. Also, we've mentioned it here before that the actual tunnelling bit isn't that expensive. It's the station fit outs that cost the big bucks. There would be no stations under Bray Head, just a "simple" tunnel. We built a much longer one solely for HGVs to access Dublin Port. That's all I have to say on it because it's very much a hypothetical but I think we'll eventually twin track through or around Bray head. Remember, boring through it is something that has already been done, twice in places ;-)

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752657#Comment_123752657

Even if you doubled or even tripped the numbers of passengers, it would still be relatively tiny number that would never pass a CBA.

Extending DART to Wicklow will allow them to capture the majority of growth that is within a reasonable commuting distance of Dublin.

Beyond that you are very much into a distance which wouldn't be considered planning best practice to encourage people to commuting from. Of course some people will do it anyway, but it really isn't something that the government would want to be investing in and encouraging.

spillit67

You can’t view this as solely a Dublin commuter area though, not when you have major hubs like Sandyford, Dún Laoghaire and Blackrock close by.

Tbh I’m struggling here on the development potential point. The growth is outrageous in Greystones and just beyond, and Bray is picking up as well. The advantage of going the other side of Bray Head would be to capture more people, because the DART’s coastal proximity limits it. If anything I’d prefer this as it opens up even more development potential.

Separate to DART but someone mentioned earlier the Luas to Bray and keeping it as Metro grade standard. The only issue here I think is once you get into Bray. There’s already loads of opposition to the Transport Bridge over the Dargle between Swan enthusiasts and residents the other side of the river. I honestly think the NTA should be looking at CPOing some of the homes along there.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752657#Comment_123752657

A new alignment from Kilcock to Adamstown doesn't involve an expensive tunnel which significantly affects the "C" element of the CBA, meaning that there would be a large difference between them, even if the passenger numbers were similar.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752756#Comment_123752756

Wait until people realise it will probably have to run through Castletown Demense and a tunnel will definitely be demanded (if not delivered).

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752777#Comment_123752777

Even if that were the case, the tunnel would be cut and cover rather than the expensive tunnelling through Bray Head.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752752#Comment_123752752

No one is arguing about the growth in Greystones or Wicklow Town for that matter. While details haven't been released yet, it is looking likely that Greystones will see increased DART frequency to every 20 minutes and it looks like Wicklow Town will get a DART BEMU service.

That will cover the area with the most population growth in Wicklow and non of it requires expensive tunnelling or a new line.

KrisW1001

When you look at the long-term plans, there’s a very clear 50 km limit to the DART/Commuter network: Drogheda is 50 km from Connolly, Wicklow is 46 km, Navan is 46-50km (depending on route), Enfield is 44 km, Kildare is 52 km.

Capacity expansion south of Bray is dubious, given that outward growth to the South of Dublin is seriously constrained by the existence of Dublin and Wicklow Mountains - the only real growth in catchment here would be through densification around the existing infrastructure.

I do see a possibility for for a completely new DART line running Ashtown-Blanchardstown-Mulhuddart-Tyrrelstown-Ashbourne (with option to extend to Rathoath). That's about 22 km in total, but it’s a really hard sell in a country that just doesn’t build new railway lines.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752839#Comment_123752839

It would give that line three branches plus the Sligo trains.

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752815#Comment_123752815

South Wicklow is also seeing large development in places like Arklow, here’s an article from just today about it:

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/wicklow/arklow-news/is-south-wicklow-ready-for-a-housing-boom-of-2300-new-homes/a324583347.html

Would I consider it good planning when it’s almost a 2 hour commute to Dublin? No. But they need to be accommodated.

A line west of Bray Head just won’t happen, it would encroach on significant parts of both towns.

The limitations of the line make it all the more important that the bus corridor is improved along the M/N11.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752936#Comment_123752936

Yes, Arklow is far to far from Dublin, such development there is complete madness from a planning/policy perspective IMO.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752815#Comment_123752815

Not really though, the line is to the coast, much of the growth is well away from it in terms of walking distance.

There is still a lot of potential growth from Bray to Arklow, I wouldn’t underestimate it. It is also highly desirable.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752865#Comment_123752865

It looks like maybe you could feasibly (but with difficulty) four track the line from where it branches at Ashtown/Navan Road Parkway and then do the merge before Glasnevin Station from which point you already have four tracks in to the city. You do also have the Phoenix Park Tunnel line merging in there but this will probably be a lot less busy after DART Underground is built.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123752987#Comment_123752987

Arklows population only grew by under 400 people between the 2011 census and 2022, 13,009 in 2011 to 13,399. Just a 3% increase, well below the average 12% growth across the country.

So lets not get too carried away, actually Arklows growth is one of the lowest in the country!

It might suit someone remote working or who only needed to go to the office once a week, but you'd be off your rocker to want to commute 4 hours a day and we certainly shouldn't be supporting that type of development by government policy.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123753073#Comment_123753073

That of course isn’t the extent of future growth. The infrastructure has been added to increase it significantly.

Again I don’t agree on this perspective on it being for remote workers. You can quite easily commute from Arklow to a Sandyford, which is quickly becoming the third largest hub in the country.

I am of course not advocating for D+ to go there or anything like that, more this argument on limited growth which doesn’t actually stack up when you look from Bray down south. I’d also say the 20 minute DART line for Greystones is a bit ridiculous, it’s a limited line trapped against the coast. That’s why the N11 bus improvements are needed.

I got kick back on it before here but I wouldn’t actually be against the Bray Luas eventually reaching Greystones in some distant future. Although the P&R proposal on a Fassaroe branch along with Bray Station will tick a lot of boxes.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123754123#Comment_123754123

First of all let be clear, I'm not saying we shouldn't improve services to these towns, what I am saying is that people need to be realistic about what is achievable on this line.

An hourly shuttle operating to these towns from Bray/Greystones/Wicklow would be a big improvement over the currently terrible 5 times a day service (3 weekends) and would work nicely with what you are saying about people from Arklow heading to the likes of Dun Laoghaire or Sandyford.

However I feel people get carried away with ideas like tunnelling under Bray Head, a new line or passing loops in South Dublin. All ideas which would as best cost hundreds of millions, if not billions. The population size of the towns along this line and growth rates simply would not justify that type of investment in my lifetime.

Hell even the All Island Rail Review, which has some out there "radical" ideas says this, it basically says the line is highly constrained and just recommends a shuttle service and routing Wexford trains via Watefrod.

That is simply the reality of this line for the next 30 years.

As for Greystones, it had 2,101 boardings per the rail review last year. That is a great number, but it is still only 1 and a bit DARTs all day. Increasing frequency to every 20 minutes should be fine to handle it's demand going forward for the next few decades.

Of course eventually, maybe 50 years from now, these measures won't be enough and they will have to consider tunnelling, etc. But the reality is that isn't going to happen in the next 30 years at least.

Greystones going 20 minutes, Wicklow Town getting a DART service, Arklow etc. getting an hourly shuttle will be significant improvements for people along this line.