Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

6% growth in ridership for almost no investment isn't to be sniffed at

Without new infrastructure, providing such a service would involve: Cork train arrives in Hueston, then driver change (10 minutes) then back the train out to Park West, then another driver change to reverse direction again, then cross all 4 tracks - including DART lines - to get in lane for the PPT. Then you have to merge with DART-W and Sligo/Longford traffic to get onto the loop to Connolly, then cross DART-N traffic to access terminal platforms in Connolly, then another driver change before leaving Connolly.

That’s 3 driver changes, 3 train reversals, a extra trip from hueston to Park West, and new conflicts with every single Dublin train service - DART, intercity and commuter (except Rosslare), just to facilitate maybe 14 passengers an hour?

Pissing away the benefits of the conflict removal provided by DART+SW 4-tracking, turning west of Hueston into a new version of north of Connolly, conservatively adding 40 minutes to the sun of the cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast journey times?

Any delays coming from Cork or Belfast will cascade throughout almost the entire heavy rail network including all DART services. It’s exactly the opposite of the direction we should be going with rail development - it would be a massive retrograde step, IMO.

@riddlinrussell - I was responding to @KrisW1001 ’s suggestion to offer a Cork-Hueston-Connolly-Belfast service without infrastructure investment.

I wasn’t really thinking about your suggestion. But all of these conversations should start with passenger demand and the cost. To benefit 14 passengers an hour means the cost has to be effectively zero and adding ANY conflicts to a system where conflicts are THE biggest issue is a cost.

What the Japanese have discovered - and used to create the best rail system in the world - over the last few decades is the KISS principle pays off big-time for rail systems - offer simple reliable frequent services and expect passengers to use connections. While this Cork-Dublin-Belfast idea goes in the opposite direction - replacing two simple services with a complex one.

Honestly that spur likely isn't possible. It would have to be tunnelled or elevated to avoid to much conflicts with DARTs on either line, but particularly the Northern line as otherwise it might have to cross the slow lines. But to do that would require knocking a large number of buildings as there is no clear path to do it right now.

If a Cork-Dublin-Belfast service is ever introduced the best option would likely be to turn around at Connolly or SD which would probably be less disruptive. One turn around really isn't that bad, with the speeds and frequencies our network operates at I really don't think it would make that much of a difference over the course of what would probably be a 3-4 hour journey.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting this as an ideal solution. I was suggesting it as a counter to the idea that expensive infrastructure (up to and including a tunnel just for IC trains!) was a prerequisite for a Cork-Belfast service. It's not my preferred option at all, but it's actually possible, unlike the other proposals which depend on large investments of dubious benefit given the low frequency of IC services.

The cost of any new rail infrastructure in Dublin would be so high that unless it is to be used primarily for DART (200+ services a day) it cannot pay for itself. I personally think that DART Underground needs to be built, and also that IC services from the Western line should be routed into Heuston, thus freeing up almost all of the city's railway line capacity for high frequency services, with the exception of the approach to Connolly, which we hope will also be segregated. Any new heavy rail lines in the city beyond the DU tunnel will be an extremely hard sell.

My preferred solution to the problem is actually to build DU, and then make the surface Spencer Dock station become the terminus for Belfast services. That transfer isn't as easy as sitting in your seat, but it's not hard to get off a train, go down an escalator, get a DART, go up an escalator and get on the connecting train.

Connolly is the problem in Dublin's rail network. It needs to be avoided as much as possible, or rebuilt. To rebuild, you need somewhere else to put the trains in the interim.

DART+Metro can handle this much better for people within the greater Dublin area. Outside of the Dublin area, the problem is exactly as you say in your last sentence: 0800 departure is 0600 check-in, which is 0330 departure from Cork… Even with the AIRR speed improvements, it’s still a departure at 0430.. there’s no way this would be a viable service. And there’s a lot of flights that leave even earlier than 8 o’clock.

The airport bus services already do these runs with 60-seat coaches and while they are kept busy, they are rarely completely full.

You still have the problem that, in order to arrive at the airport in time for an 0800 flight, the Cork train will have to leave Cork at 4:00am (actually more like 03:00 on current timings, but I'll assume a 200km/h line from Cork to Dublin as you're assuming a tunnel). Not many people need to leave Cork at that hour of the morning. The train will be empty most of the time.

If you’ve ever taken any of the various Dublin Airport coach services from Cork, you'd get an idea of the demand for this journey. It's not high.

Rather than trying to funnel more passengers into DUB, an airport that already has capacity limits, it would be better to improve the transportation links between Cork and Shannon, so that they could function as a complementary pair of airports serving the South of the country.

Regarding Belfast as a destination, the distance is definitely a factor in why people “down here” won’t go there: by road it’s 5~6 hours, but there’s still people with memories of it taking closer to 10 hours in their youth .by train (even if there was a straight through) it's nearly the same. If that train time came down to 4 hours, including a 15-20 minute transfer through Dublin, people from Cork would be much more open to visiting for an overnight (and vice-versa).

This might all be covered in the AIRR, so apologies in advance but…

At the moment crossing the city in Dublin (like from Heuston to Connolly) is slow and a generally poor experience. We have IC trains split into the two "areas". It's not just Belfast service, it's also Sligo, Rosslare service for instance. So we're not just talking about "Cork to Belfast" passengers here, we're talking about rationalising the IC network in general.

We've Connolly apparently oversubscribed. Heuston's in a poor orientation/location.

So I agree that bringing Belfast services West to Heuston, or bringing all IC services East to somewhere like Spencer Dock do seem like obvious low-cost improvements.

It's definitely about more than just the 14 passengers per hour from my perspective.

I think IÉ has a long term plan to bring all Western-line service (Sligo, Mayo) into Heuston too by building a link from Leixlip(ish) to Adamstown(ish). That would leave Connolly as terminus for only the Belfast trains, and it would also provide more DART capacity along the canal: something that will come in handy if a Navan service is built.

My thoughts for the long term, posted previously, are that if DART Underground is built along the originally-proposed route (Heuston – Christchurch – Stephens Green – Pearse – Spencer Dock), then the Spencer Dock (surface level) station being built for DART+ West would be a much better place to terminate those Belfast trains, as it would put both of the Intercity termini directly above underground stations on the same DART line, making for a really simple interchange.

I think Rosslare will end up terminating at the first viable DART interchange, as this simplifies a lot of things. Long-term, Rosslare-Dublin is planned to be routed via Waterford, by reopening the Rosslare-Waterford line.

Would it be better if intercity trains only stopped at say adamstown and future ballyfermot inchicore to link with future luas lucan then heuston and possibly glasnevin and finally the new docklands into the future. passengers could switch to a variety of luas/bus/metro/dart services at these locations

would Castletown house not be a serious impediment here tho? Going by Goggl maps mayb a Kilcock western celbridge hazelhatch be more achievable. Also noticed what looks like an old alingnment into central celbridge

What is this Connolly-Heuston connectivity problem ?

Many big cites have different terminus for different directions and are no better connected than the Dublin stations. I'm not against improving it but its also not some huge fault with the Dublin transport system.