The Strategic Rail Review will consider how the rail network on the island can improve sustainable connectivity between major cities, enhance regional accessibility including to the North West and support balanced regional development.
I'd see it as a 'prestige' service "Belfast to Cork in 4 hours!"
But it wouldn't be as simple as "Belfast is here, Cork is there, people getting the service will only go to those locations."
It would open up single transfer train journeys between Tralee, Killarney, Limerick, Derry, Galway, Westport and both of the Biggest cities on the island.
It would still operate as both a Cork/Dublin and a Belfast/Dublin service as well, it would just continue service straight through.
I'd see it as a couple of times a day service akin to London Edinburgh Interspersed among the normal Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast sevices.
Also I'm discussing it as a hypothetical service to be rolled out after basically the entire AIRR is complete, (or at a minimum post Metrolink) so I'm not suggesting it as a priority!
6% growth in ridership for almost no investment isn't to be sniffed at
Without new infrastructure, providing such a service would involve: Cork train arrives in Hueston, then driver change (10 minutes) then back the train out to Park West, then another driver change to reverse direction again, then cross all 4 tracks - including DART lines - to get in lane for the PPT. Then you have to merge with DART-W and Sligo/Longford traffic to get onto the loop to Connolly, then cross DART-N traffic to access terminal platforms in Connolly, then another driver change before leaving Connolly.
That’s 3 driver changes, 3 train reversals, a extra trip from hueston to Park West, and new conflicts with every single Dublin train service - DART, intercity and commuter (except Rosslare), just to facilitate maybe 14 passengers an hour?
Pissing away the benefits of the conflict removal provided by DART+SW 4-tracking, turning west of Hueston into a new version of north of Connolly, conservatively adding 40 minutes to the sun of the cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast journey times?
Any delays coming from Cork or Belfast will cascade throughout almost the entire heavy rail network including all DART services. It’s exactly the opposite of the direction we should be going with rail development - it would be a massive retrograde step, IMO.
If there was business for Belfast Cork why are Ryanair and Aer Lingus not all over it??. It was tried in the 50's and failed and that was in an era when the train had a massive time advantage
Where there is business is cross city routings like Drogheda to Hazelhatch which are extremely time consuming today, DART+ covers this
@gjim that's why my proposal would be Dublin stop only at Glasnevin for metrolink to CC/Airport (again, after all the AIRR improvements and a new spur W/SW to North I dont think this servoce should in any way be a priority in anything but the longest of terms) The spur would also introduce more flexibility for Dart options if needed, and would entirely avoid any of the reversing conflicts in the city (and make it one 'seamless' journey from a passenger perspective)
How does it add time to the Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Belfast leg travel times? All the additional time is between Heuston and Connolly (or Spencer Dock).
The comment about Connolly is valid, and eventually something has to be done about the layout of Connolly. If this were to be run, I'd suggest departing from Spencer Dock instead of Connolly. Perhaps moving all Belfast IC services to Spencer Dock for a period would allow for that much needed rework of Connolly to be undertaken... there's no way to fix it without temporary reductions in service.
On that, I've always thought that the Spencer Dock surface station would have made an excellent Belfast service terminus after DART Underground was built, as it would allow a single connection transfer for IC passengers.
The new EMUs will operate with the same acceleration as the DART stock, so will coexist much more easily with DARTs. This isn't the old diesels that take twice to three times as long to get up to speed and clear their track segment (new signalling changes that logic anyway, but the same benefit is there in terms of shorter headways)
Driver change times are easily eliminated by the second driver getting on in Heuston and the first getting off before departure for Belfast.
It's not the perfect solution, but it's the only option with a pricetag under 500 million. And it's more than "14 passengers" if you count the connections from other IC trains terminating in Heuston.
@riddlinrussell - I was responding to @KrisW1001 ’s suggestion to offer a Cork-Hueston-Connolly-Belfast service without infrastructure investment.
I wasn’t really thinking about your suggestion. But all of these conversations should start with passenger demand and the cost. To benefit 14 passengers an hour means the cost has to be effectively zero and adding ANY conflicts to a system where conflicts are THE biggest issue is a cost.
What the Japanese have discovered - and used to create the best rail system in the world - over the last few decades is the KISS principle pays off big-time for rail systems - offer simple reliable frequent services and expect passengers to use connections. While this Cork-Dublin-Belfast idea goes in the opposite direction - replacing two simple services with a complex one.
I would suggest stop in Kildare (Limerick/Tralee/Waterford passengers) and go straight through the PPT - avoid Heuston.
Connolly or Docklands? At either one, the driver has to change ends (or change the driver).
Docklands probably less conflicts.
Connelly probably more convenient for passengers.
Either way, given the current track layout at both Connolly and Docklands, there will be some time allotted to driver logistics.
Honestly that spur likely isn't possible. It would have to be tunnelled or elevated to avoid to much conflicts with DARTs on either line, but particularly the Northern line as otherwise it might have to cross the slow lines. But to do that would require knocking a large number of buildings as there is no clear path to do it right now.
If a Cork-Dublin-Belfast service is ever introduced the best option would likely be to turn around at Connolly or SD which would probably be less disruptive. One turn around really isn't that bad, with the speeds and frequencies our network operates at I really don't think it would make that much of a difference over the course of what would probably be a 3-4 hour journey.
Whatever about the other merits for and against the idea referencing the 50s is irrelevant. There is no comparison between Ireland then and now.
To be clear, I wasn't suggesting this as an ideal solution. I was suggesting it as a counter to the idea that expensive infrastructure (up to and including a tunnel just for IC trains!) was a prerequisite for a Cork-Belfast service. It's not my preferred option at all, but it's actually possible, unlike the other proposals which depend on large investments of dubious benefit given the low frequency of IC services.
The cost of any new rail infrastructure in Dublin would be so high that unless it is to be used primarily for DART (200+ services a day) it cannot pay for itself. I personally think that DART Underground needs to be built, and also that IC services from the Western line should be routed into Heuston, thus freeing up almost all of the city's railway line capacity for high frequency services, with the exception of the approach to Connolly, which we hope will also be segregated. Any new heavy rail lines in the city beyond the DU tunnel will be an extremely hard sell.
My preferred solution to the problem is actually to build DU, and then make the surface Spencer Dock station become the terminus for Belfast services. That transfer isn't as easy as sitting in your seat, but it's not hard to get off a train, go down an escalator, get a DART, go up an escalator and get on the connecting train.
Connolly is the problem in Dublin's rail network. It needs to be avoided as much as possible, or rebuilt. To rebuild, you need somewhere else to put the trains in the interim.
Fair enough - I misread the purpose of your post. I mostly agree with all that and the rest of your post.
What to do with Spencer Dock post-DU is an interesting question ‘though. A simple one would be to have Longford/Sligo trains terminate there - removing conflicts with the northern line and reducing pressure on Connolly. So have them stop in Glasnevin for interchange with DART and metro then run directly conflict-free to Spencer Dock via the canal.
Stop at Heuston West and reverse at Connolly. But I can't see the demand ever justifying it, better to improve the 2 individual journeys and the connectivity between the 2 Dublin stations.
Honestly, I don't think Cork-Belfast in itself would be worth pursuing, but I think that plugging Dublin Airport into the national rail network would greatly enhance the CBA of any rail investment in the Dublin region. Of course, the main issue with Dublin Airport is that the main wave of flights happen so early in the morning as to be outside the normal service patterns of our existing rail services.
DART+Metro can handle this much better for people within the greater Dublin area. Outside of the Dublin area, the problem is exactly as you say in your last sentence: 0800 departure is 0600 check-in, which is 0330 departure from Cork… Even with the AIRR speed improvements, it’s still a departure at 0430.. there’s no way this would be a viable service. And there’s a lot of flights that leave even earlier than 8 o’clock.
The airport bus services already do these runs with 60-seat coaches and while they are kept busy, they are rarely completely full.
Intercity + Metro can also achieve a lot of this. There is probably a missing piece here where a quad tracked DU for Dart and Intercity with an actual proper terminating station in the east of the city would be able to facilitate a lot.
If a Cork train could continue on into a tunnel, and people alighted at SSG for a metro northbound to the airport, you likely could yield very competitive speeds compared to the coaches.
Heuston Station I've always felt is in a pretty poor location, and almost always requires onward travel, which isn't ideal for the main intercity station in the city.
The problem with this idea is that it would make DART Underground much more expensive and would make the DART part of the service worse. You would need SSG to be built as a much larger station, able to handle intercity trains, with longer platforms and intercity type train loads. Ideally you want extra platforms as people tend to take much longer getting on and off intercity trains then DART type trains. You tend to have people who rarely take trains and you tend to have people with lots of luggage. Imagine more then 1,000 people who only take the train once a year and have lots of luggage getting on and off at SSG! It would have terrible dwell times and it would destroy the frequency of DART in the same tunnel, for very little real benefit.
Excellent post, the model and your numbers “feel” right to me. As a Corkonian, I can say that we just never really think about Belfast/Northern Ireland as a destination or think about heading there. Sure once a decade you might head there to do a tour of Belfast, go to the Titanic museum, etc. but it just doesn’t have a draw for us that Dublin would. I’m sure the same is true for people living in Belfast about Cork. Sure there is probably some civil servants and business people who would make the journey more often. But about 14 people an hour feels about right. Not enough to even justify a coach service. I know others are saying it wouldn’t just be about Cork, that Limerick, Galway, etc. could feed into it. But even then Limerick would be roughly half of 14, Galway even less and towns in between even less then that. You would add up less then less then 50 people per hour. Sure if it was cheap and easy to connect the Western lines to the Northern line, then fine it might be worth it. But it isn’t, it would either be operationally difficult (via PPT) or require a multi billion euro tunnel, in which case it just isn’t even worth considering.
You still have the problem that, in order to arrive at the airport in time for an 0800 flight, the Cork train will have to leave Cork at 4:00am (actually more like 03:00 on current timings, but I'll assume a 200km/h line from Cork to Dublin as you're assuming a tunnel). Not many people need to leave Cork at that hour of the morning. The train will be empty most of the time.
If you’ve ever taken any of the various Dublin Airport coach services from Cork, you'd get an idea of the demand for this journey. It's not high.
Rather than trying to funnel more passengers into DUB, an airport that already has capacity limits, it would be better to improve the transportation links between Cork and Shannon, so that they could function as a complementary pair of airports serving the South of the country.
Regarding Belfast as a destination, the distance is definitely a factor in why people “down here” won’t go there: by road it’s 5~6 hours, but there’s still people with memories of it taking closer to 10 hours in their youth .by train (even if there was a straight through) it's nearly the same. If that train time came down to 4 hours, including a 15-20 minute transfer through Dublin, people from Cork would be much more open to visiting for an overnight (and vice-versa).
Why have they never considered an M50 style park and ride station on the cork line to allow people from greater Dublin the option to board trains to cork from there? That would hugely increase the ridership catchment area.
This might all be covered in the AIRR, so apologies in advance but…
At the moment crossing the city in Dublin (like from Heuston to Connolly) is slow and a generally poor experience. We have IC trains split into the two "areas". It's not just Belfast service, it's also Sligo, Rosslare service for instance. So we're not just talking about "Cork to Belfast" passengers here, we're talking about rationalising the IC network in general.
We've Connolly apparently oversubscribed. Heuston's in a poor orientation/location.
So I agree that bringing Belfast services West to Heuston, or bringing all IC services East to somewhere like Spencer Dock do seem like obvious low-cost improvements.
It's definitely about more than just the 14 passengers per hour from my perspective.
There is a huge air of unreality about this Belfast-Dublin-Cork idea. If only the Dart Underground was not allowed to wither, the connectivity issue Heuston and Connolly and maybe the Airport would be largely (albeit somewhat imperfectly) solved.
I think IÉ has a long term plan to bring all Western-line service (Sligo, Mayo) into Heuston too by building a link from Leixlip(ish) to Adamstown(ish). That would leave Connolly as terminus for only the Belfast trains, and it would also provide more DART capacity along the canal: something that will come in handy if a Navan service is built.
My thoughts for the long term, posted previously, are that if DART Underground is built along the originally-proposed route (Heuston – Christchurch – Stephens Green – Pearse – Spencer Dock), then the Spencer Dock (surface level) station being built for DART+ West would be a much better place to terminate those Belfast trains, as it would put both of the Intercity termini directly above underground stations on the same DART line, making for a really simple interchange. I think Rosslare will end up terminating at the first viable DART interchange, as this simplifies a lot of things. Long-term, Rosslare-Dublin is planned to be routed via Waterford, by reopening the Rosslare-Waterford line.
Even DART+ will largely fill this gap (imperfectly obviously). I’m certain that once DART+ is complete, Cork, etc. trains will start stopping at one of the DART+ stations West of Heuston and that people can transfer to DART there for Connolly and transfer to the Enterprise at Connolly. While not perfect, it will do fine to satisfy the relatively small numbers we are talking about here for Belfast.
@PlatformNine Your comment over on the DART Underground thread is interesting. I agree that even if/when DU is built, at least some DART’s will continue to use the PPT due to the new stations. I’m wondering what you think of the possibility of the following idea. Could you continue to run say a DART through the PPT every 15 minutes to serve those stations, while also sending one Cork train per hour through the PPT?
I’m not a fan at all of mixing different service types and I think it would be mad to do that in the DU tunnel. But if the DU tunnel takes the pressure off the PPT, then perhaps a reduced frequency for those new stations + some Cork intercity trains would be okay?
The idea is if Cork goes to a train every 30 minutes, you could route one an hour to Heuston, while the other you route through the PPT to Spencer Dock with a stop at Glasnevin. I feel such a service could help reduce most of the complaints people have:
It feels like a relatively “easy” way to fix some of the issues with Intercity services without spending big money on more complex solutions. Of course it requires DU to be built first, but would the idea work if it was?
Connecting both Inter-City services to that DART line could be crucial in any CBA.
Would it be better if intercity trains only stopped at say adamstown and future ballyfermot inchicore to link with future luas lucan then heuston and possibly glasnevin and finally the new docklands into the future. passengers could switch to a variety of luas/bus/metro/dart services at these locations
They should be getting the ball rolling on DU now. The planning process will take years anyway so may as well get it to shovel ready during the Metrolink process.
would Castletown house not be a serious impediment here tho? Going by Goggl maps mayb a Kilcock western celbridge hazelhatch be more achievable. Also noticed what looks like an old alingnment into central celbridge
To capture the greatest number of potential commuters, I would argue that it must get as close to Celbridge as possible with the junction east of Maynooth.
Let's really future proof it and have Celbridge E & Celbridge W. It's a long walk from the other side of Celbridge to Hazelhatch.
With the junction designed, properly, to avoid conflicts i.e. tunnel or bridge for the up line to cross the down line and a similar junction layout at the Cork line.
Would Heuston be able to handle the additional 16 Sligo ICs a day?
Hazlehatch is Heuston lite, just that bit too far.
What is this Connolly-Heuston connectivity problem ?
Many big cites have different terminus for different directions and are no better connected than the Dublin stations. I'm not against improving it but its also not some huge fault with the Dublin transport system.
