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Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,295 ✭✭✭mackerski


    You can make it more detailed if you wish. The only limit is your own capacity to add precision.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,196 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    The Rail2050 strategy includes 1 hour Cork-Limerick Journeys and the introduction of direct services before 2030 through double tracking and remodelling of Limerick Junction, not sure how realistic double tracking is before 2030. For 2050 it's envisaged that there will be both direct Cork-Limerick trains and direct Galway-Waterford trains and a 3 line+ 2 branch line Limerick commuter rail system with more than 20 stations so all very ambitious.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 355 ✭✭I told ya


    The original Dublin-Galway line was from Broadstone (MGWR) via Mullingar to Galway.

    I cycled the Old Rail Trail (Mullingar to Athlone) 2 years ago. It certainly appeared to have been double tracked, given that one rail line is clearly visible, the width of the over bridges together with only a few LCs. Built to a high standard indeed.

    I read somewhere that Portarlington to Athlone was built as a branch line by GSWR with running rights to Galway.

    I also read that the double track was lifted decades ago, leaving it a single line.

    CIE, in their wisdom, decided in the late 60s/early 70s to run all Galway/Westport traffic via Portarlington.

    The cynic in me feels that this was the opening move in closing the Sligo line. Reduce the traffic volume from Connolly to Mullingar leaving only the Sligo traffic, thus rendering the line totally uneconomic and must be closed.

    Of course it must be said that at that time there was some economic prosperity in the country with the resulting rise in car and commercial vehicle ownership. In turn rendering the railways some what on the back foot.

    There is a long history of communities along the line protesting about its closure and the poor quality of the service in the 70s/80s and 90s.

    Whilst retaining the line to Glasnevin Jnc was necessary, past that CIE just wanted rid of it.

    About 25 years ago I worked with a woman whose husband worked in CIE HQ. Simply put, the engineers ran the railways, the less track there was, the maintenance work there was, the less funding needed from the gov.

    All private transport businesses, both freight and passenger, are sales driven. But it must be acknowledged that the cost of maintaining and improving the 'permanent way' (as opposed to the road network) is high and the gov. is always under pressure from every and all sections of society.

    A bit of a ramble there, but looking at the AIRR, whether it's Dublin Airport, Navan, Tuam, etc., it's going to involve objections, ploughing up the countryside and big bucks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    Yes, Mullingar to Athlone was double track when built, it was singled by the GSR in the 1930s. The whole section from Broadstone to Ballinasloe was double if I recall. But the GSWR line from Portarlington to Athlone was always single.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Dublin-Mullingar-Athlone-Ballinasloe was the double-tracked MGWR main line to Galway until the GSR singled iit beyond Clonsilla from 1929 as an ecoonomy measure. Portarlingto-Athlone was always single track, but many overbridges were wide enough to take 2 tracks - a common practice.

    I don't think the diversion of Galway and Mayo trains to Heuston via Portarlington was part of a plot to eventually close the Sligo line, which at the time had a good level of freight and passenger traffic. The route via Portarlingto was faster, and with potentially greater capacity. Mullingar-Dublin was always hopless for high speed running, due to curvature, as it closely followed that 18th century expressway, the Royal Canal.😊

    Double-tracking Portarlington-Athlone will likely involve planning issues as it not just a matter of restoring a previous second track (unline Limerick to Limerick Junction).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,196 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    The vast majority of the AIRR is about improving existing rail routes though, if you exclude the fanciful Portadown to Athlone and Newry to Derry lines which seem to be included out of lip service, there isn't really much proposed in terms of new routes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Newry/Portadown to Derry I'd say isn't exactly a pie in the sky routing, it would capture the vast majority of the outstanding large towns in NI without a rail connection (Sorry, Enniskillen!) And offer the potential of a direct Dublin to Derry service and a probably faster Belfast to Derry service.

    Portadown to Athlone is pretty fanciful beyond a short extension to Armagh.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,196 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    These are in northern Ireland though and there's basically no conceivable scenario in which an English government is going to stump up such cash for such luxurious infrastructure (which would not be built in England for towns of comparable size), it would require monumental shifts in politics. The only real way would be if Ireland straight up paid for it, but that's a long way off being politically possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,658 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If Ireland was to stump up for railways in other jurisdictions, the only one that might make economic sense would be high-speed Holyhead to Crewe if HS2 got to Crewe sometime in the next century.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 289 ✭✭scrabtom


    Do you not think there would be value in connecting Donegal to the rail network?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,658 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It wouldn't make economic sense, particularly as Donegal County Council has allowed a completely haphazard development across the county.

    Potential for a Derry/Letterkenny link, if development was to take place around stations on that line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,911 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I’d say the Galway line being routed via portArlington was about maximising the return on the minimum amount of infrastructure- made sense at the time to maximise use of the main cork line, close the rest. . Unfortunately the result now is congestion and lack of capacity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,196 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    A Derry to Letterkenny rail link could well be bought and paid for by Ireland, but the AIRR recommends more than doubling NI's railway network with brand new electrified and double tracked routes capable of supporting high speed services. That's a lot of money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,196 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Yes if Crewe to London was only an hour it would make sense to bring the north Wales line into a more useful state, 2 hours Hollyhead to London would make sail and rail a viable option again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 445 ✭✭Ireland trains


    https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/news/all-island-strategic-rail-review-iarnrod-eireann-u

    A short update on the rail review, nothing much new though.
    ‘Priority projects have been identified, with these now being analysed in further detail, focusing on upgrades of the existing Intercity network’.

    Navan public consultation still planned for later this year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 439 ✭✭PlatformNine


    I noticed on the map of network interactions, that it shows four-tracking from Dublin to Portarlington and Dublin to Drogheda (it says Malahide but the map shows to Drogheda). I wonder if it means that they are actually approaching four-tracking the lines, or if they are looking into the new alignments as reccomended in the AISRR, but justs says four-tracking for simplicity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,427 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    4 North would be Connolly Clongriffin, then 2 tracks to Airport then 2 tracks direct to Drogheda

    Hazelhatch-Portarlington a new alignment is preferred as you can then avoid the geometry issues the existing route has across the Curragh and through Portarlington station, also greatly simplifies construction (new route would be 2-3km shorter also)

    2 completely separate 2 track lines is more flexible and resilient than a single 4 track line

    Post edited by goingnowhere on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I suppose this would be a suitable thread to continue conversation on through IC services rather than the DU one?

    I am quite interested in the possibility of this (and more broadly, IC services which do not either start or terminate in Dublin)

    Within the AIRR scope, what new IC/Interurban services do people think would

    a) become possible (both via the new/improved infrastructure and space in timetables etc)

    b) become viable from a passenger numbers perspective?

    To continue on the 'ICs through Dublin' thread, I do think a Belfast to Cork through service, following the line improvements to facilitate higher speed trains + 4 north + the IC lines to Drogheda (via an airport station?) + Kildare IC Route could be very viable if you're looking at approx 4hrs(?) end to end in comfort vs a 5+ hour drive.

    Question for me would be what would the impact be on DART services if that went through the PPT via a new (part of 4n/own project) northern spur to the Drumcondra line?

    Considering scenarios with and without Dart U (I'm guess ing impossible without, but very interested in the service patterns through PPT with DU in place)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Belfast to Cork should be achieved by calling into Heuston, reversing out and taking the PPT to Spencer Dock (preferably, to avoid more congestion at Connolly), then reversing out and going onward to Belfast: that’s a 10 km extra journey and it is not going to be super fast (at 60 km/h plus stopping time is maybe 10-15 minutes), but it’s faster, and less hassle, than changing to a DART (Underground!) at Heuston, then again at Pearse to get the Connolly train to Belfast, or taking Luas Red line between the two stations.

    If DART Underground is built, the PPT and will be a minor DART connection between the two big axes (Maynooth-Bray and Kildare-Drogheda), so there would be opportunity to use it for IC connections instead. This keeps the DART Tunnel as the high capacity cross-city link.

    I don’t see any way a mainline rail tunnel under Dublin could make sense in Ireland when there’s only one destination at one side of it. Mainline rail tunnels are the preserve of Central European cities that sit on transcontinental railways. Dublin will never be that. If another tunnel absolutely needs to be built, then put a Metro line in it instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    I don't agree on into Heuston, reverse out, into Spencer Dock, reverse out again.

    We will already have a high quality interchange station at Glasnevin, a North facing junction to the northern line could have you passing straight through Dublin, stopping once at a metro station 10 minutes from the city centre (you'd be longer on the luas to O'Connell or Stephens Green for either SD or Heuston.)

    Maybe a stop at Heuston West for West Side passengers, that again wouldn't have you performing two reversals just to get around Dublin.

    Then new IC lines to Drogheda could incorporate an airport stop, but you might be faster at that point hopping off at Glasnevin coming from the South and switch to metro, so that station would mostly capture southbound passengers from NI, maybe not worth it.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    My routing also passes Glasnevin - there’s no other way between Heuston and Spencer Dock.

    Yes, a north-facing connection would allow you to skip a second stop in Dublin, but my point in suggesting this was that all of it can be done without building a single extra metre of new track beyond what’s already in progress. You could do the movements tomorrow if you stopped in Connolly, but the need for special rolling stock is the barrier for getting to Belfast. By the time Spencer Dock is in service, I hope the Cork mainline electrification programme will also be starting (with new ETCS-equipped trains to replace the 201 locos) and thus, that barrier to having a straight-through Cork-Belfast service will be gone.

    I take the point about the in-out at Heuston being awkward, but it is done so that the train can pick up passengers as well as drop them: this allows connection to Belfast at Heuston from trains originating from Cork, Limerick and Galway - which makes the service more commercially viable. Heuston West might be fine if you’re being dropped or collected by taxi, but it is just not suitable as a place to board with luggage, or transfer from an incoming (e.g.) Galway train to the Belfast one, or lug suitcases out to the Luas stop at the front of the station.. the distance from the Heuston West platform to the Bus and Luas stops at the front of Heuston is longer than the length of O’Connell Street, and it’s all outdoors, in a country not known for dry weather.

    I’m happy to talk about a northbound curve, but it’s something that will be really, really hard to get through planning, as it will have to be an elevated railway at some point (a tunnel would need to be stupidly long).

    Post edited by KrisW1001 on


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I think you would need to start by questioning whether there really is much demand for Belfast - Cork. Sounds like a nice to have to me. Although I accept that the ability to get on a cork bound train at Connolly, or a Belfast one at Heuston is nice. I just don’t see people making the end to end journey very often.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Actually, just bringing the current Connolly train around to Heuston would improve ridership. Now you've got Limerick/Galway/Cork to Belfast as a cross-platform transfer. Given the flakiness of the current Enterprise, I accept it's a risk, but with new trains coming, and electrification of the link between the two stations it could be worth looking at.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26 LastCall


    Did anyone else miss this?

    Irish rail launching study to improve frequencies and reliability of Galway line.

    https://www.galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/irish-rail-study-to-identify-capacity-and-frequency-improvement-for-galway-dublin-route-197177?hl=en-US-u-mu-celsius



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Westernview




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Economics101


    There are 11 trains from Dublin to Galway on a weekday. Given that most of the line is single track that is just about as much as you can sqeeze in without letting punctuality go to pot. Any increase in frequenct will need significant double tracking. (By comparison Dublin-Cork has 15 weekday services).



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, Irish Rail has expressed the desire to double track the whole core intercity rail network (also electrify it). They want Galway (and Limerick) to go to hourly service and Cork to eventually go every half hour.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,559 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes, in reality there is very limited demand for such a service between Cork and Belfast. What is interesting about the idea, is there hasn’t been anything stopping them operating such a service through the PPT for decades now if the demand was there.

    In the 1960’s they use to even regularly operate trains to Cork, Limerick, etc. out of Connolly on Sundays, to save the cost of opening Heuston Station on Sundays!

    But here is another interesting point, if the demand exists, why haven’t the intercity coach companies started a direct Cork to Belfast service? It would be “easy” for Aircoach, Dublin Express or Citylink to do, they wouldn’t even need a NTA license as it would be one of those cross border services. If you can’t get enough demand to fill a 55 seater coach, then perhaps not worth the effort.

    Having said that, if you could stop the trains at Glasnevin, then it becomes an interesting option for onward connection on Metrolink to the Airport or the City. Could Glasnevin have enough space to become a non terminating intercity station.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭gjim


    The classic passenger demand model, the “gravity model”, claims demand between two destinations will be proportional to the product of their populations and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.

    It’s obviously a rough model but plugging in the populations and distances suggests Cork-Belfast demand to be about 6% of the Dublin-Belfast demand. Or about 14 passengers an hour based on current Dublin-Belfast numbers. There are FAR bigger fish to fry when it comes to improving rail transport in the country.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    6% growth in ridership for almost no investment isn't to be sniffed at, and any Cork-Belfast service wouldn't need a new intercity: a Cork-Dublin train that continues after stopping in Heuston would become an already scheduled Dublin-Belfast service out of Connolly. Stopping at Heuston allows transfers from Limerick, Waterford and Galway too.

    The reason for not doing this to date is because the trains running on the network here are not certified to run in NI, and vice versa, due to different signalling. Only trains specifically modified to use both signalling systems may cross the border: that's only the Enterprise and a couple of 22000 sets that also operate this route.

    NI is resignalling their network with ETCS, as is IÉ with theirs (Dublin to the border is pretty much done already), so in future, any new train from either side can run on any line. That's the big barrier gone, but electrification of Cork-Dublin and Dublin-Drogheda plus new, electric trains should also bring some small time improvements that may make schedules work better than at present.



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