Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

bk · 19-05-2025 01:50PM

Yes, I had the misfortune of using Killester station this past weekend.

"Barracks like" is an excellent description. It really feels very hostile and not inviting at all. Small tiny ugly station, big, high, metal fencing everywhere, no official cycle parking (people lock their bikes to the fences outside), a whole separate metal pedestrian bridge right next to a perfectly serviceable bridge. Then when you exit the station, a big long winding 7 minute walk through a residential area, to just see the N4 zoom by you!

Frustratingly the N4 operating every 12 minutes 24/7 stops on the bridge directly above the station with no direct access to it! Same with the H3 and other buses nearby.

And what is really crazy, while it might be different during the week, any time I've used Killester, the gates in the station are left open and unmanned! So all this "security" for nothing!

They really should revise this station. But there are plenty of examples of this all over the network.

Zebra3 · 19-05-2025 02:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123464443#Comment_123464443

We should really create a Minister for Transport position to hold IR accountable….

spillit67 · 19-05-2025 03:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123464443#Comment_123464443

How does it get through planning?

This is the sort of stuff I'd actually want planners to demand!

Irish Rail probably secretly love that so much of the DART hugs the coast as they don't have to police it.

cgcsb · 19-05-2025 03:56PM

I'm not sure how it get's planning but this type of glaring planning error has not gone away and I find it difficult to marry up the extremely long times taken by planning authorities to review submissions and the rubber stamping of obvious planning faux pas.

In the past year ABP has granted full planning permission to all the Bus Connects Corridors without significant amendments despite some parts of the corridors being deficient in their layout relevant to design guidance and in some locations are contrary to the goals of bus connects. There are even sections of the bus connects corridors (e.g. in Ballsbridge) where the NTA is proposing narrowing footpaths so much that the design will effectively take away the independence and freedom of wheelchair users and mobility limited persons in order to provide multi-lane roads for cars and turning lanes for cars (contrary to the NTA's own design guidance). Effectively we're building with a 1970s car-centric attitude and the planning board which takes 2 years to approve anything is rubber stamping that attitude.

riddlinrussell · 19-05-2025 05:56PM

I'd be interested in seeing how often with these big projects the board goes against the recommendations of the actual assessor.

I presume most of the time taken on these approvals is the assessor doing their due diligence, going over the plans and assessing their suitability.

The board approval is where things can get 'political'. How often are things 'rammed through' and how much scope would a divergence between the recommendations and the board approved plan give to anyone seeking a JR?

Brian CivilEng · 22-05-2025 07:50AM

I’ve described Harmonstown DART station as looking like what public transport would be if it were illegal.

KrisW1001 · 22-05-2025 09:08AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123464443#Comment_123464443

The lack of pedestrian permeability in private housing developments is a plague across Ireland, and in this specific case, I don’t think it’s fair to put the blame on IE: I have a strong suspicion that any proposed pedestrian link into that estate would have been objected to by more than a couple of the residents. If a western entrance could have potentially jeopardised the whole station development, I can see why it's not there (but I don’t know: maybe it was in the original plan).

Worse, it looks like the new estate (Darley Square) that was built right beside the station last year also has no access to the station. If true, this is a huge missed opportunity.

However, from aerial photos, the alternative is not as bad as you say. There is a pedestrian/cycle path on that humpback bridge, and there’s an pedestrian/cycle entrance 100 metres before the car entrance.

Personally, I'd have added steps at the point I’ve marked with an X, but what's there is not bad given that any entrance to the west of the tracks would be impossible under our current planning system. The new estate is being built on the field at the left of this image; the private house right beside the tracks is what stops a direct route up to the northbound (western) platform from this pedestrian path.

Part of the problem is the need for ticket-gates on access to the platforms. As DART extends, it might be worth looking at an honour system, as successfully used on Luas.

Pete_Cavan · 22-05-2025 08:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123473822#Comment_123473822

Buying out that private house right beside the tracks would solve all the issues. It's driveway would become a pedestrian/cycle access.

bk · 23-05-2025 10:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123473822#Comment_123473822

Part of the problem is the need for ticket-gates on access to the platforms. As DART extends, it might be worth looking at an honour system, as successfully used on Luas.

Yes and what is crazy about it, they sort of already do, but without the benefits!

I know that Connolly/Tara/Pearse actually use the gates and often have ticket checkers, but in my experience of the rest of the stations, like Clontarf, Killester, Howth, etc. the gates are just left open and unmanned anyway.

I honestly can't remember seeing any of them with closed gates in years!

So they have all the cost of maintaining those expensive gates, stations, extra bridges, etc. but then don't really use it!

Perhaps they could go with a hybrid approach, keep the gates at Connolly/Tara/Pearse, but remove them from the rest of the network and take a more Luas approach.

The advantage would be they could save money on maintaining (and eventually) replacing the gates on the rest of the network. Yes, you still need validators, but those could just be the simple ones on a pole, which are much simpler, no moving parts and they need to be replaced with next gen ticketing anyway, so good opportunity to do it then.

But the other even bigger advantage, it would make it cheaper and easier to add new entrances. Like putting ramps on the Southern end of Killester station, you only need ramps then and not a whole station, gates, etc.

p_haugh · 23-05-2025 11:16AM

There is already a number of stations that utilize the Luas approach from what I've seen - Sandycove & Glasthule just has a bank of leap card validators with no gates. Sure even the recently opened Kishoge only has validators! The likes of Booterstown & Seapoint still have barriers in place, but they are unmanned stations now so there's always at least one barrier left in the open position.

Zebra3 · 23-05-2025 12:54PM

Raheny is like that as well, off-peak at least anyway.

KrisW1001 · 23-05-2025 02:16PM

Munich’s public transport is entirely on an honour system, so the rural S-Bahn stations can be fairly minimal.

Here’s a three-platform station at Pucheim on the S4 line: Puchheim, Bavaria - Google Maps

Or Pullach, a perfectly ordinary* dormitory town for Munich on S7: Bahnhofstraße - Google Maps

That’s pretty much every station outside the city. You get ticket machines, a couple of seats and two platforms. Even roofs are optional. Because Pullach station is right before a level crossing, there isn’t even a cross-platform lift or stairs - you cross from side to side using the street, then use the ramps up to your desired platform.

__
* well, sort of. Pullach is home to the headquarters of the BND, Germany’s secret intelligence service. They say it’s so quiet there because the people who are supposed to be living in the houses are actually… somewhere else.

bk · 23-05-2025 04:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123477143#Comment_123477143

That is fantastic, I use to use that station frequently, but haven't used it in years.

Hopefully this is a general policy and will be rolled out to other stations over time.

Of course the goal would be to open new entrances to the stations. For instance at Sandycove & Glasthule station a ramp at the other end of the platform up to Eden Road. I use to come from Eden Road direction and the number of times I'd see the train arrive into the station directly below me and I'd know I wouldn't make it around to it in time (or start legging it), incredibly frustrating when you know it is right there!

As an aside, I hadn't looked at Kishoge station, that is quiet a substantial station! But boy do Irish Rail like their gray concrete and gray metal fencing!!

spacetweek · 25-05-2025 05:32PM

I’m sure everyone knows the reason to limit access to stations and force you to validate your ticket is to reduce antisocial behaviour, which can be a plague in some areas. It’s the main reason why I will believe the Preston Street entrance to Connolly when I see it. I think we already discussed on this thread that an entrance to Connolly here closed due to numerous attacks on staff: https://maps.app.goo.gl/bvV6i6jvLPKqn1ku6

The situation is different in the suburbs. Here lack of access to stations is mostly driven by the local residents not wanting a stream of people walking in and out of the station, plus lots of car drop offs, right outside their houses. This is the reason why Elton Grove in Dunboyne could not be a station entrance. However, something that would help here is if a pedestrian bridge was built from the small green beside Willow Park to the far side in tandem with housing development there. This would make it easy to get into the station from the north end of Dunboyne.

There are counter examples. For example the northern entrance to Bayside station is through an estate - and quite difficult to find when you’re not familiar with the area, as I found the one time I used it.

As for Killester, on the BusConnects thread there has been much discussion about the incredibly poor layout of that station and the fact that BC has not corrected it, but of course that’s not the job of BC.

If we are officially embracing barrier free ticketing, all Dart stations should have their layout revised to add more entrances and increased pedestrian permeability. There is lots of low hanging fruit here.

bk · 27-05-2025 03:02PM

Out of curiosity I went and looked at how gates and ticketing works on the S-Trains in Copenhagen and unsurprisingly it is a completely open system with no gates at all, just like how our Luas works.

There are three ways to pay for tickets:

Buy a paper ticket from a ticket machine. The ticket is immediately valid when bought, no need to validate it.
There version of a Leap card, you tag on and off at simple pole validators like on the Luas
Using an app, you can tag on and off!

The last one, the app is very interesting. Before boarding you open the app and click tag-on and when you finish the trip you click tag-off on the app and it works out how much you owe.

I quiet like this idea as it gets around the issue of a lack of validators at a busy station. Like getting off at Howth on a busy Sunday and watch as 200 people queue up to tag off at the single validator at the side entrance. Or worse, you see a Luas is about to leave but there is a queue for the validator.

Instead you can skip all that and just tag-on and off in the app.

I think this would be great on Luas and a gate less DART. Though the issue would be how it would work on a bus, though there are ways to do it when the next gen ticket validators are introduced.

As an aside, an article last week revealed the level of fare evasion on public transport, surprisingly it is quiet a bit higher on DART then on Luas, while Luas was only slightly higher then bus. So it seems the gates and all that on DART really aren't very effective.

But what I found more interesting is how relatively low the level it was, just €20 million per year for all public transport. A drop in the ocean compared to the billions we are spending on public transport infrastructure. It shows that the old concept of trying to catch every fare evader, but at the cost of a faster and easier to use system is a poor trade off.

Zebra3 · 27-05-2025 03:47PM

Another thing with the s-train stations in Cph is many of them double up as shopping centres or even just have a convenience store which helps with footfall and a feeling of safety at suburban stops.

Sam Russell · 28-05-2025 11:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490710#Comment_123490710

Fare evasion is a problem that has not really been tackled by IR. I have only seen Revenue Protection actually checking on a few occasions in many years.

Meanwhile, many gates either have been removed or are permanently open, and stations are unmanned. I am talking about southside, and smaller stations, but it includes Sydney Parade. Have they given up on RP?

However, free travel is open to a huge percentage of the adult population - I think 50 %, but I do not know the actual number. So that may have a bearing. When I have travelled IC, there always used to be ticket checked en route, but that appears to not happen any more. I think that is a mistake.

bk · 28-05-2025 11:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123492895#Comment_123492895

Yes, I think Irish Rail have gotten their revenue protection strategy all wrong, at least on DART and commuter services. They spent a fortune on turning their stations into fort knox, with gates etc. but then leave most stations unmanned and as a result gates have to be left open and there is basically no ticketing checking on the DART/commuter trains, just in the main city center stations.

Here are the numbers from the article this week:

Luas: 4.2%
Dublin Bus: 3.9%
DART: 6.9%
15% on Dublin-Drogheda, Dublin-Longford and Dublin-M3 Parkway services.
Intercity: 1.4%

What these numbers tell me is that gates don't work for RP, it is people checking tickets that work. Either bus driver keeping an eye out or a ticket checker on the Luas or IC.

I know you mentioned not getting your ticket checked on IC, perhaps depends on the service? In my experience of Cork to Dublin, there is always someone by the gates in Cork or Heuston and often checked on board too.

For DART and future DART lines like Drogheda I believe the correct approach is to go full Luas model, no gates, but active ticket checking actually on the trains across the network.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123490890#Comment_123490890

Yes, I think there is a lot of surprising psychology to this. If you make a station look like a prison, people feel unsafe using it and it also tends to attract anti-social behaviour.

On the other hand open a station up, make it feel part of the surrounding area, shops, life around it, people coming and going and it tends to feel safer and deters anti-social behaviour.

Just look at Broombrdige today, that would have been unimaginable 20 years ago!

Glaceon · 28-05-2025 12:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493020#Comment_123493020

My wife and I had our tickets checked on the Enterprise over the weekend, but it was by someone with an NTA ID, rather than IR.

Sam Russell · 28-05-2025 01:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123493081#Comment_123493081

I thought NTA get the fare box now. So no surprise it is NTA who check tickets.

Edit: It was on the Enterprise Dublin - Belfast return. Ticket was not checked on either train. [A while ago though.]

L1011 · 28-05-2025 01:46PM

Operator contracts still require a certain volume of checks to be done.

senorsmoke · 28-05-2025 07:20PM

That may have been part of the survey the NTA are doing to assess fare evasion and demand for services. Did they ask where you were getting off?

Glaceon · 28-05-2025 07:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123494440#Comment_123494440

Yeah they did.

senorsmoke · 28-05-2025 08:22PM

that’s the survey.

gjim · 29-05-2025 11:09AM

For DART and future DART lines like Drogheda I believe the correct approach is to go full Luas model, no gates, but active ticket checking actually on the trains across the network.

Agree completely. Barriers impose inconvenience/cost on everyone while doing little for FP or anti-social behavior.

But we'd need a proper transport police - to deal with the anti-social aspect - with fairly draconian powers to detain and arrest. We should have this anyway.

gjim · 29-05-2025 11:12AM

Moving a response to @Cookiemunster on the ML thread regarding All-Island Strategic Rail Review document:

That document is mainly fantasy.

It's very poor and disappointing for a strategy document. It seems they started with a map of existing rail infrastructure and then started "filling gaps". This is a lazy approach and leads to completely non-sensical proposals like a new alignment from Mullingar to Portadown. Or a new fully electrified 200km/h capable alignment from Derry to Portadown. The focus on alignments connecting this and that while the emphasis should be on services and passengers and not on pretty maps.

Where are the demand projections? Expected passenger numbers per service? Consideration of the actual terrain and difficulty in building alignments which on a featureless map seem to be able to pass through the centres of towns and (in some case) villages with ease? Capex, opex expectations? Or analysis of expected mode-shifts?

It also assumes that rail is superior along every dimension to other public transport modes. I love rail but this is simply not the case - bus based transport has many advantages and with the incredible advancement in battery tech over the last few years means buses can be almost as green as trains while offering flexibility that rail cannot and if you're not expected to carry thousands of passengers per day can offer public transport at a fraction of the cost.

PlatformNine · 29-05-2025 02:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496057#Comment_123496057

There are plenty of fair criticisms of the AISRR but I think you are being a bit harsh and exaggerating a bit.

This is a lazy approach and leads to completely non-sensical proposals like a new alignment from Mullingar to Portadown. Or a new fully electrified 200km/h capable alignment from Derry to Portadown. The focus on alignments connecting this and that while the emphasis should be on services and passengers and not on pretty maps.

This argument really confused me, were they not supposed to fill in the gaps? Were they only supposed to recommend upgrades to existing lines? Those two alignments link several of the largest towns and cities without a rail connection. Even then many alignments were ignored, some for the reasons you say, difficult geography, low demand, etc.

Where are the demand projections? Expected passenger numbers per service? Consideration of the actual terrain and difficulty in building alignments which on a featureless map seem to be able to pass through the centres of towns and (in some case) villages with ease? Capex, opex expectations? Or analysis of expected mode-shifts?

Pages 117-138 go into detail about the methodology and some of the actual numbers behind their reccomendations. It still doesn't go into great detail on some specific things but it does explain why many options were ruled. Unsurprisingly many were ruled out because of too low demand or too great of an impact or difficult geography. A number of lines were not recommended for a reason, inlcuding for the north west and south east were rejected, as well as why new Cork-Waterford lines were rejected.

KrisW1001 · 29-05-2025 02:53PM

It's the old circular argument. There's no money for rail improvement. Because nobody uses rail. Because rail is too slow, Because there's no money for rail improvement. Because nobody uses…

Every time a proper investment has been made into rail travel, passengers have followed. Buses may be excellent and convenient, but lots of people won't leave their car behind for a mode that is actually slower, no matter how comfortable you make it. Rail has the speed and comfort that can make private car use the worse option.

That line from Portadown to Derry is one of the more realistic proposals. NI's population is concentrated in an arc from Belfast to Dungannon. Dungannon is an obvious extension. Derry looks isolated but is part of a sizeable cluster of Derry-Strabane-Letterkenny. Omagh is the biggest winner. It becomes viable once you put it on the way to Derry, and then at a projected 50 min time into Belfast, the rail line would significantly increase population growth in Omagh. NI's higher population density compared to the Republic makes it easier to justify rail.. their problem has always been money (and historical sectarian bias against the western half of the country)

Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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