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Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Some cans sold in other jurisdictions have the Re-turn logo and barcode.

    I presume this is because they are produced on the same line as ROI stock and they are just sold wherever the producer wants to sell them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 89 ✭✭redshift-rider


    We recycled 79% of cans already in 2019, without any deposit scheme. (source: Aluminium Packaging Recycling Organisation Ireland)

    The problem is that these cans went to the bin companies, then the drinks companies and their canners had to buy the aluminium from them at market rates. The DRS scheme was setup specifically so that drinks industry control aluminium collection and recycling. Drinks and can companies are the ones running the scheme.

    When you buy a can of coke, you pay for the drink and the container, both are included in the price. You own the container, you paid for it. This scheme compels you to give your paid-for property away for free to the companies who sold it to you, so they can sell it back to you all over again. It's a money-making scam, disguised as environmentalism and forced on us by the government.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭Darwin


    No DRS in France, most communes have public recycling centres where you drop off your cans, bottles etc. It was wonderful going to the local Carrefour this summer, being able to buy cans of beer for less than one euro and then bring the cans/bottles etc to the local centre without any fuss. Interesting read below on the plans the EU have for DRS:

    https://www.france24.com/en/environment/20240318-activists-say-eu-s-proposed-deposit-refund-schemes-are-false-solution-to-plastic-pollution



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,827 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    These are calculations made by a RTE journalist. Nothing to do with Re-Turn, other than using their monthly return numbers. They have made it clear that it will take a year to come up with any useful sales v returns data. But he did get a representative from the Retailers to make a guess that things will continue on the up and up. Which the raw return numbers probably indicates anyway. But impossible to know without the actual sales figures. The last time he had a go at this in May, at least he had the good grace to point out the obvious.

    - "Given the open-ended nature of Re-Turn’s liability to redeem deposits, a return rate calculated over a short period will not yield good information as to the scheme’s performance."

    https://www.rte.ie/author/968575-padraic-geoghegan/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭c2r


    Some of the tins, like the Warseteiner bought in france, and the Brewdog ones I got in the north have loads of different countries logos on them - mainly from Scandinavian countries - but it's clear that these smaller brewers are probably not doing it at sufficient scale to produce separately for different markets. Same with things like M&S own brand stuff - e.g. tonic water - their Irish sales are very small in comparison to GB so just stick the logo on everything. Other items like fever tree tonic water tins have the return logo stuck on in the south, but the tins from the north went in just as well. Then I do plastic picking from the beach, and some of the discarded stuff there has the logo - whether it was bought in the south or not, who knows… I would normally put it in my blue bin, but instead it's gone in the pile to take south next time I'm there for work or visiting relatives etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It'll probably get more complicated when and if NI and GB get DRS.

    In the meantime make hay while the sun shines 🌞.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭beachhead


    I like that word "resting" There is a lot of money "resting" in Ireland and most of it belongs to the taxpayers not the politicos and their quangos



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    I haven't returned anything. I don't drive and I'm not lugging bags of cans and bottles with me on my way walk to the supermarket.

    They go into the green bin where they always have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,827 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    In case you are not doing so already, put your bottles and cans loose in the green bin. Everything should be loose. But since DRS the bin workers are looking out for bags of cans and bottles. Your residence would be identified as an easy mark, if you are putting them into bags. If you have no objection the them getting your money, put the bag on top of the rest of your waste. If you don't want them to have your money, make sure to crush them well.

    "Please place items in your recycling bin clean, dry and loose.

    Rinse any food or liquid from your packaging in the kitchen and let them dry, empty and close any bottles from liquids used around the home, separate items and place them loosely in the bin."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,963 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    The poster is doing as they have always done - where's the issue with this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,155 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    Yeah recycling goes in lose. However if they weren't what's the issue if workers take them. They're welcome to them?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭jj880


    Exactly. This was the design phase of Re-Turn. They dont want to change it because there was no incompetence involved. Cash grab for as long as possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,963 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Went to a machine this morning in the local Supervalu - I wasn'd doing any shopping so it was an extra trip on the road, buring diesel, adding to the traffic etc, as my "DRS" bag at home was full and despite wasting significant amounts of water to "clean them" was beginning to pong a bit.

    Now, we have reduced the amount of drinks we buy due to the additional price increases that producers have added to their products since February of this year - taking advantage of comsumer confusion (there have been significant price increases on some brands) so it takes a few (usually around 3) weeks to fill the bag.

    Anyway, get to the DRS machine - its full (obviously not cleared since yesterday) ask a member of staff if they can do something about it, they are very obliging and it's back up and running within ten minutes. Machine then decides to reject toally 1 in 10 or so of the items despite me having paid a DRS on those items (I would expect at this point ALL PET and ALU being sold in Ireland has had a deposit on it). Throw them back in the bag - go into the shop and cash my receipt.

    Drove home again threw the rejects in the recycle bin.

    An fairly standard story I think at this point about the scheme more than 6 months in.

    In the last six months have also had the opportunity to use the airport with the family - getting charged DRS with no real option to recover it. Same with some restaurants and coffeeshops etc - requirement is to take the item home with you which may not always be possible, if you want your DRS back - I think. No improvement on the situation really from before March.


    Now there is no doubt that those who engaged with recycling in past have at least tried to engage with this but there are a hell of a lot of people (that I can see) that never engaged in the past and still arent.

    I am seeing this in educational institutions where students are using the nearest bin for throwning bottles and cans in etc which is a massive percentage of items sold.

    As I said, as a family we have reduced the amount of items we buy in these categories - so we are doing our bit for the environment but let it not be thought that this scheme has anything to do with the environment. All that needs to happen for people do buy less of these items is just add another tax on top.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 RT Grey


    Is there talk of a change to the scheme where a damaged can/bottle, that's rejected can be "claimed" somewhere there's a person working, say in a shop ? The kids are always bending them (usually water bottles after sports).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,963 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    It's easier to find a glass hammer than get a manual return currently, nevermind for "non-compliant" items.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    I think the odds of finding the Ark of the Covenant or finding Bigfoot are better than finding a manual return!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 89 ✭✭redshift-rider


    DPS stands for deposit return scheme, it is impossible to reclaim your deposit in the airport. If you cannot get your deposit back then it's not a deposit, and calling it thus is surely fraud by any reasonable interpretation.

    The scheme needs to be taken out of the airport and the deposits collected need to go back to the exchequer. Whoever signed off on it in the airport needs to be jailed for defrauding the public and travelers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The Marks and Spencer machines have a start and finish icon on the control panel - havent seen that setup before.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Mr Price best chance at a manual return if anyone wants to claim the win!

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    There's no issue, it's a personal choice.

    It's worth pointing out though that 10 x 15 cent items or 6 x 25 cent items fit into a small shopping bag and weigh less than a half pound of butter.

    Should be easily managed by someone walking to the shop.

    That much returned would collect €1.50 off the shopping instead of putting the stuff in the bin.

    Over a year that's €78 worth of food in your fridge or €78 dumped.

    But it's a personal choice.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    None of the DRS money is controlled by politicians or quangos.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Maybe you'd be better getting them re-usable bottles and filling them from the tap.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 50 ✭✭c2r


    I know it was talked about in NI, but given our recycling is all collected as part of the rates, I don't know how much of an appreciable difference having a DRS would make to recycling rates here, and therefore what's the incentive for one to be introduced…. I can just see the nightmare now where a completely different scheme is adopted though, leaving border people with a big headache (a bit like needing to have two tesco clubcards - sigh…)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Deleted



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I suppose an all Island scheme would be the best solution.

    Probably not too easy to get agreement.

    What do you think ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,688 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    I used one in Dunnes yesterday. The display screen was blank but everybody just put their returns in, touched the screen and the voucher printed. I put my bags of bottles and cans in. None were rejected but I didn't get credit for 9 cans. There's no comeback whatsoever on this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    Ah sure, feel good for doing your bit for the environment and donating to the ReTurn CEO and Board of Directors wages!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭wildswan


    This is disingenuous though, the return stuff can't go in your shopping bag, it generally gets placed in a single use plastic bin bag which is disposed of after. Otherwise the residue (even if rinsed) would taint your nice clean shopping bags. I don't really understand why the green bins couldn't be processed properly to achieve a better end result



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭beachhead


    DRS is a quango with appointees in place.Dressed up as a recycling scheme to please the greenery and the mandarins in the eu.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Disingenuous is a bit harsh.

    I never suggested using the same bag as you use for your shopping.

    You could use an old bag or the plastic liner you mention. In any case if your returns are plastic bottles there won't be any leakage.

    Can you show how we could reach the 90% target by 2030 just using the green bin.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Do many CLGs have state sanctioned monopolies?
    That is why people call it a Quango. It has come into existent as a direct result of the government granting a state sanctioned monopoly.

    In truth, it is worse than a Quango. The state has given them a monopoly without even the limited powers they have over a QUANGO.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,839 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    It’s too time consuming now.


    Really long queues of people with 6 black sacks loading a machine one bottle at a time.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,688 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    All I know is I'm putting the same volume in the returns machines as I used to out in my green bin and I'm still picking up as many plastic bottles and cans along the roadside as I did previously.

    The only difference is I have to queue to get rid of the bottles and cans, and it has cost me money for items accepted but not credited.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It's still NOT a Quango.

    If you want to propose a different structure possibly under direct Government funding and control please carry on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Just by the way, are you ahead or actually losing so far.

    Are the pick ups balancing out the lost deposits?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    They should get on with it and install a few bulk machines for the black sack people.

    The shop based RVMs are not really suitable for returning large numbers of containers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    There needs to be way more oversight by the Government of the scheme. That doesn't have to involve direct Government funding. That should all have been done by the Government, they had ample time in the run up to the scheme to consider this. I don't have to propose an alternative therefore to point out the problems inherent in the current one.

    I'm pointing out you keep saying it's not a QUANGO, without spelling out the implications of its current setup, as if it is some exoneration of the current setup. It is not. It is worse than a QUANGO and less accountable.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,688 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Pick ups have zero value. They're invariably crushed by cars or tractors. I pay for a green bin to get rid of them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yes just this morning I had to put a completely flattened empty can of cider in my green bin that had been dumped.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭argentum


    I fill a box in my kitchen and when full transfer the bottles and cans to a plastic bag and leave it in the boot of the car

    I get a coffee in an Applegreen every day with a machine so can use that but the smell at it is unbelievable

    Don't know if its stale piss or beer from the cans returned and it also seems to reject a lot of stuff that gets accepted at other machines

    The local Aldi is very good, a big machine at the underground car park that takes everything first time and the stuff can go in any way

    I've never made a trip especially to go to a machine and I assume that most people that drive are the same

    My kids are still getting takeaways delivered with cans not in the system so I don't know where the take away gets the cans or if they charge the 15 cent



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,827 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I tried Google a few times to see if there was any information about Manual Returns. Or action being taken by County Councils against shops selling non logo stock. Nothing came up. Nearly all the news stories are going back to the start of the scheme. If there was bad news it would be making the headlines.

    And equally the "good news", like the 400 million milstone is being ignored. Only one paper I saw published the press release from Re-Turn about that. All indicative that it is a routine part of people's lives. Ordinary people are not interested in whether it is a quango, or how much the CEO is paid. This thread and Joe Duffy are the last bastions of resistance to the "Scam".

    https://www.nenaghguardian.ie/2024/08/18/record-number-of-plastic-bottles-returned/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Some strange assumptions here.

    Re-turn have shown utter contempt to people who raised complaints about the scheme, including people who take deliveries and have mobility issues. They haven't shown the slightest hint they give a damn about people unable to complete manual returns.

    Similarly, the most plausible explanation for why the council hasn't reported any breaches is that they aren't doing any checks in the places likely to be selling them.
    How many actions are taken by councils against dog fouling, and the evidence for that is staring people in the face daily.

    You can't read anything into 400 million returns. We don't know how many items were sold. Maybe there's been an increase in sales this summer with all the summer concerts. I think we need at least 3 years to judge if 400 million returns is good or not.
    Isn't that what you posted a few posts back when people were making unfavourable % comparisons and the gombeen in chief at Return said likewise?
    You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,827 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    They had to pay The Journal to publish their sponsored content. The papers and other media are not interested in stories unless some scandal emerges. The RTE journalist made a stab at story, but it was a useless effort given that there are no sales figures.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/deposit-return-scheme-advantages-6471344-Aug2024/

    "By now, most people are probably familiar with the sight of a RVM (or reverse-vending machine). The primary appeal of the RVMs is that they are fun to use, because what’s not to love about putting your cans onto a conveyor belt and watching them be whisked away all while being paid for the privilege?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,014 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    "By now, most people are probably familiar with the sight of a RVM (or reverse-vending machine). The primary appeal of the RVMs is that they are fun to use, because what’s not to love about putting your cans onto a conveyor belt and watching them be whisked away all while being paid for the privilege?"

    What absolute bollocks. 🤣



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,827 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    It was like that at the start, but the thrill has worn off now. It is no more remarkable than using a Hole in the Wall. They used to be a source of wonderment when they came out first.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,909 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yes, it is either a matter of relief - RVM working and items that should have been accepted were accepted.

    Or frustration… big queues or RVM machines busted or items rejected for no reason.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Sounds like that's in rural areas

    I've picked picked up some in good order that paid out in both rural and urban areas.

    I will keep picking up when out walking whether they are damaged or not same as you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,014 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    You must lead an extremely dull existence if a Re-Turn machine was a "source of wonderment".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I don't think anyone is against proper oversight and improvements to DRS.

    Legally the directors of the company are responsible for the proper running of it.

    I've suggested a few improvements myself and advised posters about workarounds.

    I keep correcting people who say it's a quango simply because it's not.

    Quangos are a different beast altogether.

    I'm not in a position to exonerate anyone.



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