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Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It's a given that Re-turn can only forward for recycling what it actually collects.

    In the link I posted earlier they state -

    What will happen to the drink containers once they have been collected?

    All containers collected will be sent for recycling. The Deposit Return Scheme focuses on maximising the volume and quality of material collected for recycling

    Of course a certain amount of cans/bottles will be recycled from other sources IE. bin companies.

    So the recycling rate could be greater than what is collected by Re-turn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    If the targets are not met Ireland could be fined by the EU.

    By the way it has been clarified several times on this thread that Re-turn is not a quango.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,622 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I have zero confidence in anything said by Re-turn given how they have blatantly misrepresented "collected for recycling" and "recycling" on the website.

    "Sent for recycling" doesn't actually mean it will be recycled.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 poop emoji


    We are an EU member, EU is not some sort of boogie man, goalposts get moved all the time and some member often refuse to do much including the likes of Germany

    Take the CO2 EU emission targets, not a single member will reach them, so goal posts will be shifted

    And yes they are a quango, there are no penalties to this entity if they don’t reach the targets

    You think return will pay the EU fines you scaremonger with?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,162 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    By the way it has been clarified several times on this thread that Re-turn is not a quango.

    A quango or QUANGO (less often QuANGO or QANGO) is an organisation to which a government has devolved power, but which is still partly controlled and/or financed by government bodies. The term was originally a shortening of "quasi NGO"

    Thats exactly what ReTurn is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I'm not scaremongering.

    I qualified the fines issue by saying we could be fined.

    As you say political positions can change.

    If you want to say Re-turn is a quango you can but that doesn't mean it is one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,162 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 poop emoji


    Can a private company come in and place their own machines next to return ones

    And get same or better prices from whoever is doing the actual recycling

    Can return go bankrupt? Can one see their accounts like one can with private limited companies?

    What are the penalties to return if EU targets are not met? Why would the state and taxpayers have to pay this penalty

    return are a quango, no amounts of spin changes the fact



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Can a private company come in and place their own machines next to return ones

    No

    And get same or better prices from whoever is doing the actual recycling

    No

    Can return go bankrupt? Can one see their accounts like one can with private limited companies?

    Yes

    What are the penalties to return if EU targets are not met? Why would the state and taxpayers have to pay this penalty

    Because the Member State is responsible.

    return are a quango, no amounts of spin changes the fact

    No comment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 poop emoji


    You basically made the point yourself that it’s a quango with your answers


    It walks like a quango, it quacks like a quango, it looks like a quango, it smells like a quango


    … it’s a quango



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,622 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Return are WORSE than a QUANGO. The government have given Return a monopoly and devolved powers to them (typical of QUANGOs) but without subjecting them to the scrutiny \ putting Government appointees on the board you would expect with a full QUANGO.

    So when people say Return aren't a QUANGO, that really is no defence or excuse of them.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Like I said before, you can call it a quango if you like.

    But don't quote me as supporting your error.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Obviously I don't believe Re-turn are a quango.

    That's not necessarily intended as a defence or excuse for Re-turn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,622 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Sure comes across that way.

    So what are they then?

    And if you can't answer that, and it is not intended as a defence or excuse of them, what's the point of the numerous posts? Why even dispute?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    You are correct that sent for recycling doesn't mean it's actually recycled.

    If it turns out that it's not recycled the entire project will be in deep trouble.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I hope I haven't laboured the point.

    I have answered and made my case before several times.

    They don't fit the normal definition of a quango.

    They are not Government funded or controlled by a Department.

    They will be judged on their performance and results not what they are defined as.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,622 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You haven't answered. What are they then?

    You well understand the point the poster was trying to make.

    You can't come up with an alternative term to describe them, just repeating they are not a quango.
    How does it materially change the point the poster was trying to get across?

    They have in effect been funded by the Government by establishment of a monopoly for them that comes with a revenue stream.

    They operate by Government fiat. They can't just make unliteral changes to the operation of the scheme without referring back to the Government, can they?
    So in judging their performance and results, also being judged is the parameters of the scheme as established by the Government.

    What's worse than some quangos is that the Government have even less control or oversight of them, despite devolving powers to them and establishing a line of funding for them. No government appointees on the board.

    If they don't meet their targets they will just go begging to the government to increase deposits.
    So they sure quack like a quango.

    So for the purposes of this discussion, it is reasonable to refer to them as a quango, or as I have done, worse than a quango.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    We had this same conversation months ago.

    You introduced this "worse than a quango" category then.

    I outlined the reasons why I believe Re-turn,is not a quango.

    We failed to agree then and seems unlikely to agree now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I see you have quoted my post.

    Please clarify if this means I am no longer on your ignore list.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,622 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    And we wouldn't be having the conversation again, if you didn't keep replying to posters despite still being completely unable to define what Re-turn is, or how it alters the material points being made.

    So don't be surprised when multiple posters on the thread continue to refer to them as a quango, a usage I have justified in the context of this discussion in previous post.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,827 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Can return go bankrupt?

    Given that they have been handed a scam to more or less print money I severely doubt that is a possibility.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 poop emoji


    Hehe good point tho Anglo Irish had a license to print money as a bank and well …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Re-turn is either a quango or not.

    I say not and I have outlined why.

    There's no such thing as a contextual quango.

    It's up to those using the description to support their claim which they have failed to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,622 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It's entirely justified to call it a quango.
    I outlined all the reasons why above in post 3268, you didn't even attempt to engage with them, just a cop out answer about having "the same conversation".

    But here's the summary:
    They are a quango. They are quasi-governmental. They operate using devolved powers, within parameters entirely specified by government fiat, via a state monopoly. They provide a specific service to the public. No other company can collect Re-turns. Engagement with Re-turn is obligatory if you wish to reclaim your deposit.

    For someone who claims not to be here defending or excusing Re-turn, you sure seem to have a dog in the fight when it comes to the finer definition of what a quango is and arguing the point in relation to Re-turn.

    You still haven't come up with a better description of that Re-turn is. Despite being asked by multiple posters.
    Another reason why it is entirely reasonable to refer to Re-turn and quango together.

    There's no such thing as a contextual quango? Why not?

    And I and others will continue to do so to refer to them as a quango, or worse than a quango. And every post you make just presents such a position even more as a defence of Re-turn, and your claims to the contrary have no credibility.

    No one else would continue to dispute the point without providing an alternative description of Return even if paints them in a bad light.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I'm not copping out of anything but I see no value in going over old ground.

    Like yourself I'm discussing this matter on my own terms and I reject your attempt at a summary.

    You are throwing the kitchen sink at it with a lot of irrelevancies presumably hoping something will stick.

    But yet again you have failed to come up with a definition of quango that fits Re-turn.

    Like many on this thread, you have moved on to questioning my integrity and inferring that I have some personal gain from Re-turn.

    You and "other posters" can continue to incorrectly categorise Re-turn as a quango if you wish but I reserve the right to intervene as I see fit.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,622 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    All I have done is point out the inconsistency in your posts ie declaring in challenging the use of quango you are not defending or excusing them, and the number of posts you have on the subject on the thread.

    There was zero mention made of personal gain. Only that the number of posts you have on the subject are hard to reconcile with such a declaration.

    Actions speak louder than words and those posts as actions = zero credibility to your claims not to be defending or excusing them.

    How you interpret that is on you.

    You can reject whatever you want but I have in several recent posts justified its use. Zero attempt made in your posts to actually rebut the points made just dismissive one liners.

    Such a response reinforces the strength of the claim that they are worse than a quango, and possessing those faults in common that has led it to being used as a perjorative description.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,162 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    You and "other posters" can continue to incorrectly categorise Re-turn as a quango if you wish but I reserve the right to intervene as I see fit.

    Why don't you intervene with some facts as to why it is not a Quango?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,030 ✭✭✭jj880


    Its not a given if you dont know it is.

    What youve quoted is further down the page in 1 of nearly 70 FAQs.

    They put their lie about EU Targets being recycling targets at the top of the page as 1 of the 4 benefits of a DRS.

    They know many more re-turn.ie visitors will read the DRS benefits section at the top of the page than will go searching down through the FAQs.

    Unless its ok to lie at the top of the page as long as the reality is somewhere else less prominent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I've been consistent since this issue was first raised months ago.

    Anyway it's time for me to bow out for now.

    I accept that you believe you are right but I disagree with you.

    I'm sure we'll chat again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    The point is that Re-turn can't force anyone to use their system.

    We have had several posters here saying that for one reason or another they won't.

    So if the deposit isn't incentive enough Re-turn can't do any more about it.

    They say they will send all the returns they get for re-cycling.

    If they don't send all their collected cans/bottles then they will be lying.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,030 ✭✭✭jj880


    Theyre already lying about EU targets at the top of their own webpage that you linked to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83 ✭✭Enter Username Here


    I'm sure that this has been asked multiple times, but I am having issues with the forum. It springs up the page when I scroll down, so i log out. Then it won't allow me to search through the thread properly.

    Who are Re-turn? How did they get the contract?

    Is it divided between Panda, Greyhound, Wiser and whoever else. around the country depending on where they are? If not, why not?

    How much do they make per container, or do they get all of the profits of the unreturned containers to fund better machines and generally improve?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,988 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    Haven't followed this thread in a while - still one person defending to the hilt a corrupt organisation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,474 ✭✭✭Archeron


    Let's not forget disabled / housebound people can still go take a jump as far as return are concerned. My personal bugbear having family members in that category.

    They've had a a year to come up with a solution for this and haven't bothered their holes, so as far I'm concerned they are a pack of scumbags.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,162 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    There is a significant cohort of people who get their groceries delivered. I am one, purely for the convenience, but there are lots of people who do it from necessity, be it mobility issues or transport issues. One year in, and zero solution has been suggested or offered. Those people have no choice but to put their recyclables in their green bin and let Re-turn keep their deposits.

    Obviously it's in ReTurns interest to not come up with a solution because they keep the deposits. Oh yeah, I know, it's a "not for profit". 🙄

    There could be some kind of a waiver system. The RVM scans the barcode to check if its registered so if the barcode is obscured, a deposit will not be returned. Tesco or SuperValu or whoever, could scan the barcode when the order is being picked, and then cover the barcode. Permanent marker, or super sticky labels or something, and remove the deposit fee from the item. Thats one low tech idea straight off the top of my head.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭howiya


    How does the retailer get the deposit back with your low tech idea?

    They have paid the deposit when purchasing the stock without knowing whether it will be sold to a home delivery or in store customer. The customer purchasing the item makes the retailer whole.

    Agree the scheme should be more accessible for disabled people but a waiver is impractical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 874 ✭✭✭geographica


    Don’t know about maintenance but the shops empty them to somewhere (out the back i guess)

    Extra costs on the shop, it must be worth their while 🤔



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,162 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Thats where the waiver comes in. The deposit is waived on a small percentage of the stock they buy.

    That idea was straight off the top of my head as I was typing the post. With 2 years of planning and the scheme running for a year now, Return and the supermarkets have had ample time to come up with a practical solution, and yet nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭howiya


    The practical solution is you return the bottles you buy if you want your deposit back. It doesn't matter if you get them by home delivery or not.

    What you're proposing isn't remotely consistent with achieving the EU targets we're signed up to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,162 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    And if you have mobility problems and dont drive, it's just tough sh!t is it?

    And actually, it does help achieving the targets because the people just puts their bottles into the green bin, but aren't being penalised for it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭howiya


    In the first post you replied to I said that the scheme should be more accessible to people with disabilities so no it's not tough ****.

    If you don't drive you get to a machine, the same way you get anywhere else. Walk, cycle, bus, lift etc. Bring a small quantity at a time etc.

    And there's no way of knowing whether any person that would benefit from your waiver actually puts stuff in a green bin so it doesn't help with the targets.

    As much as I think Ireland has made a dogs dinner of this, people also need to be grown up about it. Yes we were lied to about it being convenient for everyone but I won't let them keep my money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45 khamilton


    Cans should never have been included in the scheme considering our extremely high level of aluminium recycling to begin with. The reason they were included was a) as a source of revenue for return & b) because as usual, the Green Party completely falls down on execution because they pushed out all their members who were passionate about environmental policy years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,162 ✭✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    I don't drive. To take my bottles back I would have to order a taxi because there isnt one walking distance from me. Maybe if I save all my bottles up for a year, the deposit might pay for the taxi. Instead, I just put them in the green bin.

    In the first post you replied to I said that the scheme should be more accessible to people with disabilities so no it's not tough *

    If people with disabilities cant get to an RVM, it is just a case of tough sh!t.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭howiya


    Agree 100%. Cans also not covered by the single use plastics directive (for obvious reasons)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,622 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yes, the scrolling issue affects everyone, you have to wait for the screen to completely load the content of all replies and then it is usable.

    Re-turn are funded through beverage producer fees, unclaimed deposits and the sell on value of recyclables.

    Re-turn are made up of beverage producers. Nothing to do with Greyhound, Panda etc who lobbied against the scheme as it takes valuable recyclables out of their processing stream.
    The directors of the company include representatives from major drinks producers and retailers, such as Heineken Ireland, Tesco Ireland, Diageo, Britvic Ireland, and the Clada Group

    https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/re-turn-directors-receive-400000-30156790

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭howiya


    While they aren't connected to Panda etc important to note they are connected to Repak somehow. Share the same registered address.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,951 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Has this bulk deposit machine in Ireland been posted yet?

    https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDwqso5II9c/?igsh=MW5qazNrN2JmMm9lbw==



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,474 ✭✭✭✭elperello




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,537 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 poop emoji




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