Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Akrasia · 20-05-2024 07:37AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159294#Comment_122159294

FFS.

phog · 20-05-2024 07:53AM

Great to have another EI Tour, having it clash with the start of season is beyond stupid.

20-05-2024 08:26AM

i honestly don't get why these aren't in the summer? But as always fun to put together prospective squads.

Clegg · 20-05-2024 08:59AM

The last Emerging Ireland tour was a great success. Glad to see we're planning another one.

phog · 20-05-2024 09:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159417#Comment_122159417

i honestly don't get why these aren't in the summer?

That would be the sensible this to do - no, the IRFU think it's much better have it at the start of a season of a league where every point matter for the Irish clubs. Currently the Top 4 are separated by 3 points, 7th, 8th & 9th spots all on 49 points.

Former Former Former · 20-05-2024 09:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159417#Comment_122159417

i honestly don't get why these aren't in the summer?

Because the coaches will be with the senior team in the summer.

If the idea is to for the coaches to get a good long look at certain players, either on the pitch, in training or in camp, then it defeats the purposes if the coaches aren't there.

Doesn't the Currie Cup also run in the summer? So maybe there would be no opposition available.

aloooof · 20-05-2024 09:38AM

At least the provinces have a lot more notice this time, so have more scope to factor it into their plans.

Still not crazy about having it mid-season, mind. The URC table has been close every year since the SA sides have joined, it's clearly a disadvantage to the Provinces.

20-05-2024 10:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159554#Comment_122159554

They could always try watching them in the many games they play for their provinces

Podge_irl · 20-05-2024 10:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159720#Comment_122159720

They don't want to watch them in games, they want them in an Irish squad environment with the coaches.

All that being said, I still fundamentally dislike the idea of taking players out of the URC.

20-05-2024 10:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159797#Comment_122159797

So invite them to squads or do a summer tour its absolutely asenine to take established players out of the urc in order to play the toyota wildebeasts just so that nucifora can claim hes made them

Akrasia · 20-05-2024 10:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159797#Comment_122159797

There is absolutely nothing stopping them from holding a camp in summer to see them with the irish coaches in Ireland. Or include them with the wider squad for 6 nations/summer/autumn series training camps. Dragging them across the world to SA to play meaningless games during the URC season is stupid and dumb and 100% cost Munster vital league points in 2022/2023.

phog · 20-05-2024 10:48AM

6th July - SA v Ireland

13th July - SA v Ireland

.

September - EI tour to SA

Couldn't the EI lads have toured with the Senior lads, trained together for some parts of the training and then stayed on after the 13th and played their EI games.

Also, wonder why SA didn't return the favour and tour Ireland this year

Former Former Former · 20-05-2024 10:52AM

"We never give new players a shot and then wonder why we fail at the World Cup"

"I'm outraged that we're looking at new players in advance of the next World Cup"

20-05-2024 10:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159720#Comment_122159720

Are you suggesting they don't?

aloooof · 20-05-2024 10:56AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159945#Comment_122159945

It’s not “outrage” to be annoyed at players being taken out of provincial squads outside of an international window.

20-05-2024 10:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159968#Comment_122159968

Im suggesting its a bad reason to pull people out of games against actual competitive teams

20-05-2024 11:00AM

Anyone who disagrees with him is outraged. Hes enlightened you see

mod: warned.

awec · 20-05-2024 11:02AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159945#Comment_122159945

Don't troll this thread with reductive / disingenuous comments like this.

Podge_irl · 20-05-2024 11:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159890#Comment_122159890

Look, I'm not a fan of it but this is clearly not true. During the 6N and summer tours the coaches are focusing on the senior squad and the after the summer tour everyone is on break - you can't be dragging the players in for a training camp then.

Clo-Clo · 20-05-2024 11:07AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159294#Comment_122159294

Excellent news, the EI tour was a huge success and the more of these tours we have the better, even a full Ireland A/EI fixture list with games during the international windows. Maybe move them around stadiums in Ireland as well

phog · 20-05-2024 11:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160019#Comment_122160019

Yes, I think most people are in favour of it but are not in favour of the actual timing of the tour.

Also, as I said above, it would be nice if we could host it every second year.

aloooof · 20-05-2024 11:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160019#Comment_122160019

I'd be fine with this solution, tbh.

It'd ensure players aren't removed from their province outside a Test window (which is my main gripe with it), and also allow Ireland A/EI games to be played outside the Aviva for the first time in close to a decade, I think? (Assuming that's allowed by the naming rights agreement).

Presumably the issue with that is is that the senior coaches wouldn't get as much time with the players as they'd be concentrating on the legit AI's at the time.

20-05-2024 11:21AM

I don't like the timing of it either, but do like the concept.

Interested to see what the squad will look like, I'd have the following:

Picked 35 players (same as last time) with same positional breakdown (15 backs, 20 forwards):

Loose Head Prop:

Jack Boyle, Paddy McCarthy, Kieran Ryan/Mark Donnelly (not sure which is rated more highly)

Hooker:

John McKee, Lee Barron, Dylan Tierney Martin (likelihood is that someone like Scott Buckley will go ahead of one of the two Leinster hookers as they won't want to be without both players)

Tight Head Prop:

Tom Clarkson, Sam Illo, Scott Wilson

Locks:

Harry Sheridan, Niall Murray, Brian Deeny, Evan O'Connell

Back Rows:

Brian Gleeson, James Culhane, Cormac Izuchukwu, David McCann, Reuben Crothers, Alex Kendellen

Scrum Halves:

Matthew Devine, Fintan Gunne, Nathan Doak

Out Halves:

Sam Prendergast, Jake Flannery, Tony Butler

Centres:

Jude Postlethwaite, Liam Turner, Cathal Forde, Hugh Gavin

Back Three:

Diarmuid Kilgallen, Rob Russell, Andrew Smith, Ethan McIlroy, Tommy O'Brien, Ben O'Connor

Breakdown:

Leinster: 12

Munster: 7

Ulster: 9

Connacht: 7

I tried to just pick the sort of up and coming players I think the coaches will want to get a good look at (hence the inclusion of some high potential younger guys like Gleeson, O'Connor, Gunne, Gavin & O'Connell, but I'm also conscious it's unlikely the selection will be so concentrated in certain positions, i.e. Connacht can't likely lose so many guys in the back three.

There are players on this squad who the provinces definitely won't want to lose, but it is likely good for the player's international ambitions to tour, i.e. Scott Wilson, Tom Clarkson, Alex Kendellen.

Guys like Nathan Doak, Tom Clarkson, Sam Illo, Cormac Izuchukwu, Brian Deeny, James Culhane, Alex Kendellen and Dylan Tierney Martin all toured last time too, but I've included them here again as it's hard to argue any of them are materially closer to the senior Ireland squad, with the possible exception of Izuchukwu and Kendellen.

Former Former Former · 20-05-2024 11:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159971#Comment_122159971

In fairness, using terms like "asinine" and "stupid and dumb" is pretty strong criticism. If it doesn't meet the threshold for outrage, it's pretty close.

Players being taken out of squads outside international windows is part and parcel of Irish rugby and this is not new. The provinces exist primarily to serve the national team, and like it or not, URC matches in September and October are a long way down the food chain.

For a lot of the guys who end up going on the tour, this will be the best shot they'll get at impressing Easterby, POC and Goodman. If we can accelerate even three or four guys into the national set-up for the November tests, it'll be worth it.

If you asked Calvin Nash or Jack Crowley was it worth a trip to SA last year, what do you think they'd say?

phog · 20-05-2024 11:25AM

The timing as it stands (without dates) sounds like it's got to clash with late pre season or actual URC games, the games where the Irish Squad players are rested after their summer tour. Then on the return from the EI those players may require rest management. The concept is fine, the timing is a farce

Clo-Clo · 20-05-2024 11:25AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160046#Comment_122160046

The players picked the last time, just a quick look, 4 have gone on to full caps and now part of the full squad or in consideration. A number of others should probably push into the full squad soon like Ahern

At the time the list of players, most of them IMO, would have been sitting on the bench at most with a lot of them not even in the squad for the provinces.

THe provinces have been saying for years the number of games have reduced because of the URC so is it really that big of an issue?

I said at the time if one player went from the EI tour into the WC it would be seen as a success and I think we ended up with 2, Crowley and Big Joe

20-05-2024 11:28AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160108#Comment_122160108

Asenine or stupid and dumb wouldnt indicate.outrage for me so much as disagreeing with something

Can i ask why jack crowley or calvin nash playing against significantly lower than urc opposition should be a defining factor?

Is jack crowley not irelands 10 if we didnt have an emerging ireland tour? If so thats a massive issue isint it?

phog · 20-05-2024 11:30AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160116#Comment_122160116

You're almost saying that whatever a player does for his province is irrelevant, it's all down to an EI tour, just to prove it was a success.

But even if Ireland got 5+ players from the tour, that in itself doesn't mean the timing of the tour was a success

Former Former Former · 20-05-2024 11:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160126#Comment_122160126

Can i ask why jack crowley or calvin nash playing against significantly lower than urc opposition should be a defining factor?

Who said it was?

The tour is as much about seeing these guys day in, day out, watching them train, what their attitude is like and if they can do what is asked for them. The actual matches themselves are less of an issue.

Like, the constant complaint here is that non-Leinster players don't get a fair crack at Ireland selection because of "cohesion", whatever that is. Here's a gilt-edged chance for fringe players from all provinces to work with the Ireland coaches, get used to their systems, learn the calls, etc etc.

Some guys will impress, others won't, and I'd call that a good exercise.

Is jack crowley not irelands 10 of we didnt have an emerging ireland tour?

Maybe not? He was third choice at Munster, Ireland brought him to South Africa ahead of Ben Healy and a month later he's winning two senior caps. Crowley is a shining example of what this tour can do.

aloooof · 20-05-2024 11:37AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160108#Comment_122160108

This amount of players being taken at, at the same time, absolutely is new tho. Or, at least, was the first time round.

Iirc, Munster had 9 players in the last EI tour, and had a number of injuries, particularly in the back 3. We had to field a team with 0 senior back-3 players, and Carbery starting his first game for Munster at FB (and playing terribly).

It may well be correct that these games are a long way down the food chain. It still doesn't mean fans aren't entitled to be annoyed about it.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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