Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160168#Comment_122160168

It still doesn't mean fans aren't entitled to be annoyed about it.

I understand the annoyance - but at the same time, if the repeated criticism of Ireland is that we don't give international call-ups to enough people, harder to get out of the team than into it, etc, then surely anything which helps to fix this (perceived) problem is a good thing, even if there's a trade-off.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160205#Comment_122160205

It's all suppositions, so we'll just have to wait and see who's selected. That selection certainly wouldn't be as impactful to Munster as it was last time out.

Iirc tho, given the back-lash from the Provinces, it seems liked they selected a younger cohort than had initially been planned? They reference was to the NZ XV game during the NZ tour; we didn't really bring that level of player?

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160221#Comment_122160221

Come on - are you really suggesting that we pick some of the likely guys who'll tour with the EI squad against the Springboks this summer? Would that actually be in the best interests of those players or the Irish team?

There are a handful of guys from what I think the likely EI squad will be who may well crack the full Ireland squad soon (Cormac Izuchukwu, David McCann, Matthew Devine IMO), but the sample size on all of them is very small.

I don't think there is one player in my 35 man EI squad above who would justify a place in a 23 for a test against the Springboks.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160228#Comment_122160228

The majority of the players on the last tour wouldn't have played for their province during the window. 

You keep repeating this but in Munster's case it's simply not true. Even just looking at the backs - Frisch, Nash, Daly and Crowley. Of course they would have played.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160228#Comment_122160228

The two players that you mentioned got caps during the RWC, do you think playing for their province made that decision easier or only weighted on the EI Tour.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160241#Comment_122160241

Yeah, I think so, and hence why I included a couple of guys just out of U20s like Paddy McCarthy, Evan O'Connell, Brian Gleeson, Fintan Gunne, Hugh Gavin & Ben O'Connor.

They may also delve further down into the academies and bring guys like Shay McCarthy, Henry McErlean, Conor O'Tighearnaigh, Ruadhan Quinn etc, but either way I don't think the selection this time will impact the four provinces quite as much (all depending on injury etc.).

To me, the 35 I selected above would include a good mix of very high potential young players the coaches will want to get a good look at (Scott Wilson, Jack Boyle, Brian Gleeson, Dave McCann, Matthew Devine, Hugh Gavin) while also being a selection the provinces could largely live with, absent a handful of pinch points in a few positions (Ulster THP and OH, Leinster hooker).

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160246#Comment_122160246

And they can't justifiy their place unless you try them a game vs amateurs wont change that.

David McCann for example has 44 senior caps lads like kendellan and hodnett have 50-60 what would you think is a suitable sample size?

we have plenty of players capable of playing the boks which is why lads like nash and hansen can fill in and thrive

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160264#Comment_122160264

It's fair to say Crowley and Joe McCarthy wouldn't in all likelihood have been capped that November if not for the EI tour.

After that, it's very hard to say as there wasn't an enormous amount of international rugby after that. Crowley still probably would have forced his way into the Irish squad but it's not a given.

nerd69

We play plenty of boks several times annually now. Their not mythical our players often outplay them

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160274#Comment_122160274

Thats a pretty damning endightment of the irish coaching staff

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122159554#Comment_122159554

They don't send all the coaches to this anyway and we are able to accomodate our head coach being away for the lions.

Its basically the irfu saying they don't care about the urc again.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160279#Comment_122160279

They're a different beast playing in the green of South Africa, at home in front of packed out crowd. The Sharks are the best illustration of that (utter crap a lot of the time).

The South African players are probably the worst offenders in world rugby for just mailing it in a bit for their clubs.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160301#Comment_122160301

Perhaps our players would be different beasts also. Difference is they will try players. See them having a player who couldnt make an irish squad for 4 years play a key role in a world cup final as an example.

Ireland are very successful but also very very conservative. We have increadible depth but are afraid to use it other countrys are not.

As you said without injury or an emerging tour vs amateurs does crowley stary for ireland? The fact that its a question at all shows the issue

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160284#Comment_122160284

How is it?

By the time of the Fiji game in Nov '22 Jack Crowley (22 at the time) had only played 20 times for Munster - 7 starts, with 6 of those at out half. He had played less than 750 mins of senior rugby at that point. I think it's entirely fair to say he was unlikely to be capped against Fiji (and given the start against Australia) without travelling and playing really well on the EI tour.

Joe McCarthy is a similar tale - he'd played 13 times for Leinster (8 starts for 633 mins) when he was picked on the bench for Australia. Similarly, I don't think he gets that call up without travelling on the EI tour.

Dubinusa

The timing is poor. But either way it's a chance to get players into a touring environment. There's a lot of good this can do for the national team. It's worth noting that S.A will be accessing their stock too. It benifits both unions.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160321#Comment_122160321

They actually don't - Andy Farrell has given debut caps to 33 players in the past 4 years. The South Africans have given debuts to 17 players (despite having a playing pool multiple times the size of Ireland's) over the same time period.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160337#Comment_122160337

20 caps including a win away to the top 14 champions isint enough to try a player but games against amateurs is? That seems like a coaching staff that struggles with talent evaluation to me

Joe mccarty had been in Irish squads for a year at that point he got in adter 4 senior appearancesi doubt the emerging ireland tour was a defining factor

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160366#Comment_122160366

Now Take out tier 2 or italy because those games have never changed opinions on a player. Sa will try a new cap vs nz we wont unless weve injury issues

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160376#Comment_122160376

He had 6 starts at 10 ffs - he was 22 years of age. He'd come through during peak COVID disruption, and the season immediately prior to this he was third choice for his province.

If you really think Jack Crowley's selection is indicative of poor talent identification by the Irish coaches then I really don't know what you're looking for.

I don't know where your info on Joe McCarthy is coming from either - he was picked to tour NZ in summer '22 and played in the Maori games. At that point, he'd made 11 appearances for Leinster (8 starts) for 596 mins. He'd been thought highly enough of by Leinster to have sat on the bench for the European cup knock outs, including the final (albeit playing small mins in those games). He was obviously a strong prospect.

If you're complaining about Jack Crowley not travelling to NZ - at that same time he had played 18 times for Munster for 506 mins, 5 starts. At that point he was third choice 10 at Munster behind Carbery and Healy.

Dubinusa

Squad should be a mix of experience and youth.

Lh. Boyle/ Donnelly/ Duggan

Hooker. McCormick/ Barron/ Tierney

Th. Wilson/ Illo/ ?

2nd's. Sheridan/ D. Murray/ Edogbo/ C.O.T

loose forwards. Kendellen/ Culhane/ Izzy/O'Brien/ Gleeson

9's. Devine/ Foley/ Coughlan

10's. Sam/ Butler/ Tector

Back 5. Russell/ Smith/ Lowry/ Campbell/ ?

Centers. Gavin/Turner/ Postlethwaite/ Forde

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160264#Comment_122160264

In terms of Crowley, he wasn't playing many games for Munster, the preferred option was Carbery and Healy. Even after he returned from the EI tour he was been played in centre more than 10, but when Frawley dropped out after the NZ game he was next up, I would expect partly because of the EI tour. Due to another injury he got to start against Aus and played well.

On the back of the AUs game he got into the 6 nations squad

So it's a combination.

Would he have come into the Nov AI squad without the EI tour? I don't think so because it seemed at the time, if he was playing for Munster it was at centre and not at 10.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160390#Comment_122160390

Excluding Tier 2 teams (of which Italy aren't one, but I'll exclude Italy too for these purposes), Farrell has given debuts to 10 players, excluding Tier 2, SA have given debuts to 14 players.

They haven't given any debuts v NZ since Wilco Louw (Oct 2017) and before that Malcolm Marx in September 2016.

The 14 caps they've given against "Tier 1" opponents is split as follows: Argentina 4, Australia 3, Wales 7.

The 10 players we debuted over the same time period against "Tier 1" is split Scotland 3, Wales 5, South Africa 1, Australia 1.

You're completely wrong on this point, nobody really hands out debuts in the toughest games.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160408#Comment_122160408

How are jack crowley and ben healy both 3rd choice depending on the conversation? Crowley had gotten heavy mins in preseason so i think he was in line to start

We just played leinsters 4th choice 15s and 3rd choice 10s in 6 nations games so i do hope you found that to be an issue also

Iv not once said crowley should have been im nz iv said the emerging ireland tour shouldnt be needed for us to try talented players

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160437#Comment_122160437

14 is more than 10 so im not sure how im wrong one of those 14 being an irish cast off for example who immediately played 4 tests vs aus,argentina,wales and nz. As far as im aware they even managed it without travelling to Ireland to have them play cork con or terinure mid season

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160440#Comment_122160440

Crowley was playing centre and not at 10, Healy and Carbery played the majority of games that season at 10. With Healy playing at the start, then due to results was dropped for Carbery, then Carbery post the Glasgow game was dropped with Healy starting.

That's my recollection from last season

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160440#Comment_122160440

Jack Crowley was Munster's third choice during the 2021/22 season - that season he played the lowest minutes (456 Crowley v 796 Carbery and 923 Healy) and starts (5 for Crowley v 10 Carbery and 7 Healy) for Munster of the three 10s.

People often say Ben Healy was the third choice at Munster at the time when he decided to sign for Edinburgh - and that appears to be fair comment as while Healy started the 4 games to open the 22/23 season (while Crowley was on the EI tour - Munster almost certainly wanted Crowley to tour ahead of Healy because Healy was ahead in the pecking order at that time), he then didn't start another game till 6th Jan, and was out of the match squad for the three European Cup games etc played at that point.

The 4th choice Leinster 15 who you claimed was picked for a 6N game is presumably Jordan Larmour - a player who has played 18 times for Leinster this year (17 starts for 1,200 minutes), and who has started in every European Cup this season for Leinster. He was forced into the 15 shirt against Scotland at the very last minute when Hugo Keenan got injured in the warm up. He also has 30 caps for Ireland.

I've no idea who the Leinster third choice 10 is you're referencing - but I'm guessing you mean Harry Byrne. He is Leinster's second choice 10 when everyone is fit (but crucially Ross Byrne wasn't fit when he came off the bench for those two 6N games). He equally is a guy who has played 18 times for Leinster this season (11 starts - 704 mins), and who started some massive European Cup games like La Rochelle and Leicester away.

Neither situation is remotely comparable to where Jack Crowley was in summer 2022.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160433#Comment_122160433

You're omitting a lot of context here.

In terms of Crowley, he wasn't playing many games for Munster, the preferred option was Carbery and Healy.

.. under JVG. We can't say that with remotely any confidence about Rowntree as it was far too early in his tenure.

Even after he returned from the EI tour he was been played in centre more than 10

… because we were decimated by injuries.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160486#Comment_122160486

Crowley got pulled from the squad to start the season.

Like what is the point here are you suggesting if the emerging ireland tour didnt start Crowley wouldnt have been a munster starter?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160291#Comment_122160291

They don't send all the coaches to this anyway 

Do we need to? And as you rightly point out, Farrell won't be around this season anyway.

Its basically the irfu saying they don't care about the urc again.

It's the IRFU saying the national team is top priority and everything else is subsidiary. Again, I'm not sure what part of this is news.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160458#Comment_122160458

South Africa have 14 Currie Cup teams, alongside the 4 URC teams. If you think awarding 17 new caps over a 4 year period is some sort of massive indication of their willingness to "try things" but somehow Ireland awarding 33 new caps over the same time period (from a professional playing pool roughly 4.5x larger than ours) then I think it's fair to say you're just looking to see what you want to see, and once again to just needlessly bash Farrell and the IRFU.