Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Quin_Dub · 01-05-2024 08:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086856#Comment_122086856

Leinster definitely leaned into the fact that they had a ready-made production line of Academy prospects already prepared for the structures of Academy/Pro sport coming from the Boarding schools where their schedule , food and training regimens were strictly controlled so for them moving to the Academy was a very simple transition.

That softened the impact of keeping those players largely out of the AIL game , a luxury that the other provinces did not have.

Brief_Lives · 01-05-2024 08:09PM

thank you Oracle, and can you provide the same level of insight for all provinces?

except Leinster of course. they're perfect.

Post warned.

01-05-2024 08:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086917#Comment_122086917

The idea that Leinster have had zero input to their own success in developing players and it's all down to the schools is pretty disingenuous. As someone who attended a pretty B tier rugby school I can tell you they are very involved. The resources input by the schools themselves has rather grown legs in exaggeration too.

Fortunately Munster seem to have turned a corner in development too

ersatz · 01-05-2024 08:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086634#Comment_122086634

Far more blame being pointed to the IRFU on this debate around funding, but my question is about accountability. Both Munster and Ulster have fired coaches and its delivered very modest result. Have the fired any executives? Not that I know of.

Podge_irl · 01-05-2024 08:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086917#Comment_122086917

This is ridiculous though. Leinster themselves prove it by their underperformance til 2009.

You can have the greatest structure in the world, but decisions still have to be made to exploit it most effectively. Leinster made that pivot from around 08 onwards. They have scouts and development officers all over the province in private schools and public schools and clubs. No one can magic a St Michael's out of thin air, but it's about investment in that level of rugby and making the most out of what is there.

TheSunIsShining · 01-05-2024 09:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086984#Comment_122086984

I'd agree with this. For Munster in particular you need a strong AIL. And a strong Limerick. And Limerick rugby is not in a good place. Maybe the hurling success is biting the rugby?

Senior and Junior schools final this season was Pres-Christians. Senior Final last season was Pres-Christians. No Limerick schools even entered the Senior B competition, the Barry Cup, this season. Not good at all and not good for Munster in the long-term.

Paul Smeenus · 01-05-2024 09:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087146#Comment_122087146

You're aware Ulster CEO Petrie was fired, yes? He seemed to be held pretty accountable.

Anyway, you said that you'd never seen anyone post criticising the management att Ulster or Munster. Within half a minute I'd found exactly such a post. So who knows what else has been discussed on here that you've been completely unaware of?

Neil3030 · 01-05-2024 09:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087281#Comment_122087281

I can confirm with semi-regular contact with Ulster fans and their use of four-letter words and the middle finger emoji, that Petrie was absolutely loathed.

Foxtrol · 01-05-2024 11:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122086917#Comment_122086917

I understand it is far easier to cry that the world isn't fair than to open your eyes and accept that inept leadership in the province you support squandered the enormous lead they had over other provinces in nearly ever facet on and off the pitch.

Absolutely no reason that Munster could not have built facilities and pathways to turn the huge support they had in the '00s and '10s into a pipeline of players. You had guys raised in D4 who were self proclaimed 'Lunsters'. Moan all you want about private schools, there is absolutely nothing that stopped Munster from investing in their own private schools, especially when a significant portion of the Leinster and Irish teams are powered by just 2 schools.

Glad Munster didn't take the route you have, blaming everyone else, and finally got their act together in recent years, following some of the things that helped to make Leinster the success they are.

Neil3030 · 01-05-2024 11:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087871#Comment_122087871

You read it here first folks. It's apparently possible to harvest a smattering of fairweather rugby fans and yield international-calibre rugby players, if you have the right leadership. Leadership that practices sorcery, perhaps.

pickarooney · 02-05-2024 06:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087338#Comment_122087338

I'm sure we'll get his side in his upcoming tell-all memoir. I think it's called Petrie Dishes.

ersatz · 02-05-2024 07:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087281#Comment_122087281

fair enough but the point stands, fans find far more issue with the IRFU, central contracts, the media and Leinster demographic/schools advantage to wish away enduring underperformance than they do with how the provinces are run. Coaches get stick, suits rarely do. Both Ulster and Munster have had periods where they dominated Irish rugby consistently, the reasons they fell away are mostly homegrown. RBAI and Methodist were once as important to producing Ireland players as blackrock and Michaels are now. It’s not the IRFUs fault that the wheels came off. RBAI has produced more internationals and Lions than any other school on the island, 3 times+ as many as Blackrock. At a guess they’ve also produced more IRFU leaders too.

Lost Ormond · 02-05-2024 08:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087871#Comment_122087871

MMunster Invest in which schools though? There's pres and Christians in Cork City, bandon Grammar, glenstal, midleton college and very few others. And of those schools 2 are mixed unlike many of the leinster schools. Another has very small pupil numbers compared to most of the rugby schools in leinster.

Leinster players have only been coming from Michaels for just about a decade and we can't replicate what leinster are doing through the schools.

awec · 02-05-2024 09:01AM

This is just getting silly now. No other province will ever be able to replicate the Leinster private school system or even come close.

Munster, back in the 00s, were heavily reliant on the club system rather than schools.

But then the club game was neutered. 🤷‍♂️

phog · 02-05-2024 09:26AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088395#Comment_122088395

I think everyone knows this but a few on here seem to think, or at least want us to think it's a simple solution, hey you, you have a school, why isn't that school producing players.

IF it was a simple fix, every school would be turning out tons of players for different sports.

ersatz · 02-05-2024 09:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088293#Comment_122088293

Michaels has around 600 kids, it's not a very big school. Gonzaga is even smaller and they've become a serious rugby outfit in the last few years only. Im not sure they've produced any pros but they've created a house style that's very successful. maybe they have way more resources than equivalent schools in Munster and Ulster to invest in rugby, Ive no idea.

Clo-Clo · 02-05-2024 09:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088395#Comment_122088395

Club game seems to be going strong at the moment, based on all reports the attendance rates seem to be on the right way and quality of rugby

Why would another province want to replicate Leinster? they should look at the options they have available and maximise them. I don't think any province can claim they have maximised the academy system, Leinster included

02-05-2024 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088175#Comment_122088175

Those RBAI numbers are a nonsense though - they're heavily skewed by the number of players they produced in the early 1900s. They boast of having 85 internationals and 13 Lions, but in the past 18 years they're not in the Top 10 nationally in terms of players produced, with 0 Lions.

If you go back to the start of 1996, so that counts the last 232 players to be capped by Ireland, Blackrock is #1 with 21 players, followed by Pres in Cork with 15, and St Michael's College with 11. Next is both St Mary's College and Clongowes with 9 each (Mary's numbers skewed by late 90s / early 2000s - their last international is Jack McGrath), with Munchins (8 players), Newbridge (7), Ballymena Academy (6), Ardscoil Ris and Castleknock College rounding out the top 10.

awec · 02-05-2024 10:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088754#Comment_122088754

Correct, I think any stats that include the amateur era are worthless, things were just so different back then.

Even early pro era is of limited value, when provinces were only playing a handful of games a year and players played for clubs. It is very hard to compare to the current world.

02-05-2024 11:16AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088861#Comment_122088861

Was is interesting is on that sample (232 players back to 1996), the split of province/club is relatively balanced.

Leinster lead the way with 77 (33%), but Munster (62 - 27%) and Ulster (51 - 22%) are well represented, with Connacht on 27 (12%). The remaining 15 players (6%) were with UK based clubs when first capped.

That hasn't changed that dramatically if you roll it forward and look at the last 100 players capped, where there are no players in the list who don't play for the 4 provinces, but the split is as follows: Leinster 39, Munster 25, Ulster 20 and Connacht 16.

Quin_Dub · 02-05-2024 11:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088933#Comment_122088933

And if you set those figures against population, Leinster are about on par, Munster and Connacht are significantly over represented and Ulster are well under.

From I can see the overall population split is ~41% Leinster , ~31% Ulster , ~19.5% Munster and ~8.5% Connacht

Podge_irl · 02-05-2024 01:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088933#Comment_122088933

Huh, that is interesting. Would not have guessed that.

Jump_In_Jack · 02-05-2024 05:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088983#Comment_122088983

Population alone doesn't translate to more elite players though.
A better figure might be number of players playing Division 1A/1B AIL rugby.
I would guess Leinster has multiples of the playing population of any of the other provinces.
In Munster, rugby is the distant 4th sport after Football, Soccer and Hurling.
In Ulster half the population would perhaps still view rugby as a British sport and therefore would not participate.
Connacht would be very dominated by the GAA, and have only a few clubs at lower levels compared to the other provinces.

TLDR: Playing population along with the standard of club/school competition is more important than total population. A few schools or clubs competing at an elite level could drive standards higher than having many teams competing at a lower level.

RichieRich_89 · 02-05-2024 08:03PM

It'll be interesting to see what locks make the Ireland squad for the summer tour if Ryan and/or Henderson don't/doesn't make it back in time. I'd imagine four second rows will be taken, so there would be two places up for grabs behind Beirne and Joe McCarthy.

Baird could travel as a lock, which would open up another blindside slot for Prendergast or McCann.

Treadwell and Ahern would probably be next in line, but I wonder where the Connacht starters, Niall Murray and Joe Joyce, sit in Farrell's thinking. Joyce seems like an effective player from what I've seen, but I haven't watched him week in, week out. What limitations/flaws does he have?

Izuchukwu and Deeny featured for 'Emerging Ireland', but they are probably well down the pecking order currently.

Paul Smeenus · 02-05-2024 09:48PM

I can't see Treadwell touring. Sheridan has leapfrogged both him and Izuchukwu. He's a cracking player but probably a bit small for international second row. I'd imagine the Connacht lads are in the driving seat.