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Wildflower Meadow Attempt

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭Newtown90


    Any chance you got that seed in Lidl/Aldi... I had done a patch when i started a few years back and the first year had a lovely variation - every other year after was wild carrot and massive daisys so you're not alone.


    I went on and both from elsewhere last year and added extra borage and phacelia for my bees.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭Bellie1


    No got from connecting to nature website which is reputable . They advertise yarrow and daisies in the mix. I think the issue is that they're dominating other species and have simply grown too tall and are flopping over. In October am going to dig all up and stick to native annuals next year. Or try collecting seed from foxgloves etc locally. The yarrow is mean to be a prolific self seeder so am considering cutting that back down at weekend. It's a shame as it's in a public carpark on my estate and I was hoping to encourage others to do wildflower in their gardens. But this is going to turn them off as just looks ugly and messy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I bought supposedly ox-eye daisy in a packet, reputable brand, and they were not ox-eye at all, I don't know what they are but they are more like half way to a Shasta daisy, they grow about a foot high then fall over and grow up again another 2 ft, so they are sprawled all over the place and smother everything, they are extremely vigorous. The are in the process of being taken out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,263 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    When I was a head gardener another head gardener mate supplied a lot of seeds to a well known bunch of con merchants who I won'T naMe. He said they misnamed a lot of plants in his garden which subsequently turned up in their catalogue. I used to supply seeds for the RHS seed distribution, a lot more honest operation.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭lordgoat


    Year 3, strong clover year, getting close to balance now. There is a bed with planted perennials at the front

    Early years had a lot of yarrow and ox eyes.

    People want the end result without having to wait, gardens in general don't work this way, creating an established meadow in a smaller space take a lot of time and planning. Digging it out and starting again just resets the clock.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,211 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I just came accross this thread. During COVID I set an area in the garden with spud but there was potato eelworms in the ground so that stopped growing the potato.

    I had done nothing with it since so I dug it out in February and raked it out in late March and kept it raked out. I came accross this box of wild flower seeds and I planted them in late April

    I put in a dwarf grass seed with them and intend to cut back in late July/ August. At present it looks like.


    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭Bellie1


    That's gorgeous. So just because have mostly yarrow and ox eye daisy this year, doesn't mean next year will be the same? Was considering digging up and starting afresh but now you've given me hope



  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭lordgoat


    I can only say how mine is going, last year there was more ox eye for sure. You can do things to help though, when it goes to see cut and remove from the area the main bullies. But it really is a long process. 4-6 years until it's stable (this is with minimal work) Maybe you could get there quicker.


    The best 'advice' if people are looking for any I would have is create the area and make it look intentional. Not really obvious from my photo but we have a border around the wild part. Down one side Lavender and Catmint, and a bed with Spirea and Ceanothus shrubs against the wall (hard to see from pic). What this does is create a structure that when you look at the garden you get the impression this is an active choice (rather than an untidy garden). This has helped with the understanding and even though everything looks the exact same bar a border around the edge with some mulch in it. I'll take some photos in when I cut it later in the year.


    @Thargor happy to pay back all the book recommendations over the years!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭Bellie1


    Thanks lordgoat. Novice question here, when you say to cut back after gone to seed, do you mean deadhead or cut right back to be ground?(thinking of the yarrow here in particular?



  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭lordgoat


    I cut the entire thing back when most of the flowerheads had turned to seed but before the dried out fully and scattered. This is not possible for all plants so just pick when it looks right and cut then all down to about 4-6 inches and remove the cuttings.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Went to the open day down at Wildflowers.ie in Rathbeg today, very interesting, they were way more optimistic about a new meadows chance of success than you would be researching it yourself, the head guy was very big into his Roundup, he says killing everything with that first early in the year then waiting and weeding it for the rest of the year until sowing at the end of September is by far the easiest way to jumpstart a meadow.

    Nobody in the crowd wanted to do that though so he says the second best way is to give it as close a buzzcut as possible with your mower then after the last cut in Sept/Oct you should heavily scarify the soil either with chain harrow/scarifier or dethatching rake, stripping it practically bare but still with some grass, then just hand spread the seeds and rake them in with one pass of a spring rake and wait (sowing into dry soil and then having it rain right away is best). Yellow rattle to be activated by a few hours in the freezer and added later before the first frosts.

    He ruled out my plan to prepare the seedbed now and weed them bare until September, he said just do it a couple of days before I sow and it will be fine.

    So yeah good day out if you're in the area, very interesting talk, he constantly emphasised it will be a multi-year project, lovely spot, one on one consultation and appropriate free seed packs about your site if you bring him pics (printed he wont look at phones) and soil samples, sowing and raking tutorial for anyone who needs it and more than enough free seeds for my project, all you can pick yellow rattle aswell, it was seeding everywhere, just pick up the pods and shake the seeds out into a bag:




  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Jebus, he’s supposed to be the ‘lead’ and he’s advocating round up…….!

    Bar that sounds like an amazing day out, with other great advice 👍😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭Bellie1


    Thanks. That tip about the yellow rattle is very useful. Sowed some last year and poor showing so this year will try the fridge trick



  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 11,373 Mod ✭✭✭✭lordgoat


    That's Sandro right?

    Got my seeds from him to start off. What you can instead and it's what I did was cover the entire area with black plastic over summer (after a very hard cut and scarify). Leave it covered all winter and plant early spring as he described.

    Might try and get to one of these talks as he's meant to be very entertaining.

    I have never got one yellow rattle flower in 3 summers. Never took, it's also seems to have some mystery status as an easy fix for grass... it needs grass to live on, sure it will help keep grass weakened but over time, grass will probably win (in our style of meadow).



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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Was saying the same about yellow rattle in a post a few weeks ago. Got extra rattle seeds from seedaholic. I think this is our 4th year with the meadow and it’s the first year that I can say that it has established, had just a few plants last year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Ill be planting plenty of yellow rattle seed in the heavily scarified areas, leaving a bit of grass to sow some seeds into and raising plugs in the greenhouse to plant in the grassy areas in Spring, definitely nothing wrong with this stuff anyway its fresh as you can get and he was saying its getting a bit out of control in their fields, clumping together and not letting anything else grow in big patches.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    he's doing it on a commercial scale, so it doesn't surprise me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭Tefral



    I've no idea why the photos are sideways but you can turn your screen 🤣


    This is my own one. Different stuff seems to come up and down. All I did last October was hit it with the strimmers and cut it back to the ground. I bought lots of yellow rattle then and planted it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Your meadow is very pretty, and no doubt the bees love it. Its an annual flower meadow, not all native, neither cosmos nor California poppy are native. I suggest you remove the California Poppy as it grows very enthusiastically and in good soil will create a dramatic, pretty, but impenetrable mulch of green and flowers that will suffocate everything around it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Project update after a fairly backbreaking day out there:

    This was what I started with when I bought this house a few months ago, getting rid of the trees was part of the contract due to years of arguments about them between the previous owners and the neighbours, I had no issue with it as I hate these foreign evergreens:

    After tree surgery and a few months of strimming and mowing I was left with this, it looks small in the pics but its a big garden and way too much regular mowing for me which is what led me to the wildflower meadow idea:

    Scalped the lawn on the lowest setting yesterday and rented this scarifier from Chadwicks and gave it four laps vertical and horizontal in a line from the washing line down to the trees today, just to have a patch of manicured grass in front in case it doesn't work out, Ill do that patch next year if Im happy with this years result:

    I took away 5 wheelbarrows of unbelievably heavy thick thatch and was left with deep score marks all over, added 3 kinds of seed mixes that I got at wildflowers.ie down in Thurles on their open day, shady woodland and hedge mix down the back and edges and meadow mixes in the main body and all over, Ill do a separate Yellow Rattle planting day later in the season closer to the first frosts, theres yellow rattle in the mixes anyway to improve my chances:

    After that I raked up any loose stuff then just shook the seeds out all over the way we were shown at the open day, pressed them into the soil with a few passes of the spring rake and lots of walking, did all that in the sun and its been pissing rain since I finished so hopefully ideal sowing conditions, no clue if I used too much seed or too little or whether I distributed it equally or not but anywhere I knelt down to look seemed to be well seeded in the scarifier grooves and the seeds seem to have all disappeared a few hours later after the rain with no sign of birds feasting on them so happy with how it went anyway. Cant wait to see how things turn out now:


    Species list:

    MM09: Field Scabious, Kidney Vetch, Quaking-Grass, St Johnswort. Musk Mallow, Red Campion, White Campion, Wild Carrot, Yarrow, Yellow Agrimony, Yellow Rattle, Salad Burnet, Birdsfoot Trefoil, Black Meddick, Centaury, Corn Marigold, Corn Poppy, Corn Cockle, Cornflower, Cowslip, Lady's Bedstraw, Lesser Knapweed, Marjoram, Mullein, Ox-eye Daisy, Red Bartsia, Red Clover, Ribwort Plantain, Selfheal

    MM10: Birdsfoot Trefoil, Black Meddick, Bush Vetch. Corn Marigold, Corn Poppy, Corncockle, Cowslip, Meadow Buttercup, Field Scabious, Kidney Vetch, Lady's Bedstraw, Lesser Knapweed, Marjoram, Eyebright, Mullein, Ox-eye Daisy, Hawksbit, Red Bartsia, Red Campion, Red Clover, St Johnswort, Wild Carrot, Yarrow, Yellow Rattle, Species in small quantities: White Campion, Feverfew, Cornflower, Scentless Mayweed, Birdsfoot Trefoil, Purple Loosestrife, White Bedstraw, Ragged Robin, Selfheal, Yellow Agrimony

    EC04 (shady areas): Birdsfoot trefoil, Black Meddick, Burdock, Bluebell, Corn Marigold, Corn Poppy, Corncockle*, Cornflower*, Cowslip, Devils Bit Scabious, Foxglove, Hedge Garlic Mustard, Hemp Agrimony, Hoary Plantain, Cow-Parsley, Lesser Knapweed, Scented Mayweed, Meadowsweet, Mullein, Ox-eye Daisy, Purple Loosestrife, Primrose, Ragged Robin, Red Campion, Ribwort Plantain, Sorrel, St Johnswort, Teasel, Upright Hedge Parsley, Wild Angelica, Wild Carrot, Wood Avens, Sweet Violet, Dog Violet



  • Registered Users Posts: 18 D-Lo Brown


    Wow well done! Serious work done there


    What I've found I really like in my front lawn is a mix of birdsfoot, clover and daisies. Looks lovely even no and the bees absolutely love it


    I scalped the edges recently and seeded heavily with clover and top dressed and it's doing well now. Next year I'm going to regularly mow the edges to keep it neat and tidy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Thanks, although after the rain has washed the scarifier muck away a bit and the lawn has had a couple of days of sun/showers to recover Im wondering if its still awfully thick to do this properly. Ah well I still have a large amount of yellow rattle seed to sow so Ill make sure to clear a few decent spots for it to get going.

    Anybody know where I could get a bundle like this of native hedgerow plants? Waiting for a reply from the site but are they out of season atm? When would you expect to see them back and when would the best time be to plant them? This would be perfect for my place and would hopefully solve my nettle problems at the edges:

    Traditional Irish Native Hedgerow Mix (connectingtonature.ie)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Hmmm the grass is coming back faster than I thought, I suppose it will be okay to give it a good mow before Winter now that the seeds have gone in the ground? Or should I just leave it and see what comes do you think?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,211 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Keep missing it you do not want any the grass to smother any seeds that germinate. Keep it as short as possible all winter and out into the spring. You want light and air down into the butt of the grass.

    Do not mulch you must take the clipping off

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,647 ✭✭✭victor8600


    I recommend https://www.vanderwel.ie/ in Aughrim, Co. Wicklow for bundles of hedging or trees. Bought 100s of plants from them over years, very good quality and prices.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Done now thanks.

    Thanks, Connecting to nature got back to me after I asked, they're connected to wildflowers.ie and that pack is perfect for my situation, available to order in Mid-Winter apparently:

    Hi xxxx,

     

    We expect to have the bareroots back in stock by mid-winter.

    I cannot give an exact timeframe yet as the lifting and processing of the trees will be weather dependant.

    Bareroot trees and hedging are best sown from November to the end of March.

    This is when the trees are in their dormant stage and they can be safely lifted and replanted without damaging them.

    At all other times, trees should only be planted if they are already potted.

    If you wish, I can add your email to our notification system and you will be notified as soon as they are back in stock.

     

    Hope this helps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Scalped the lawn again and scarified a good few bare patches into the soil today with the dethatching rake in various spots, seeded it all with a good amount of Yellow Rattle seed including some batches that Id kept in the freezer overnight. Pushed more down into the petrol-powered scarifier grooves that are still visible from last month.

    Kept a bit of YR seed back for plug plants in the Spring. Will see what comes now, temp got down to 2 deg C here last night according to the weather station.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    There is a new environmental farm scheme called Acres. Options in it, include both native trees and hedgerows. This will place a big demand on stock this winter. The variety of stock available may also be an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Hmmm, first week of March and gave it a quick once over with the mower there, not much sign of any wildflower action out there yet, no sign of any yellow rattle in the seedbeds I specially prepared for them, in fact if I was someone who liked grass lawns/mowing Id be very happy with the putting green finish out there 😐️



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Well its only April and the weather has been absolutely abysmal here in Limerick, literally raining since Christmas but I think this first attempt has failed, the lawn is basically zero difference from if Id skipped all that work scarifying and dethatching and seeding with the wildflower mixes to if Id just skipped mowing it.

    Just grass/daisies/dandelions and the odd actual weed like hairy bittercress and creeping buttercup. Maybe the ridiculous amount of rain washed the seeds out or maybe the grass is just too aggressive?

    Ill give it another while but Im going to start planning next years attempt now. I think I might just bite the bullet and spray it all off then seed it again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Any suggestions for anything I can do this year? Is it too late to add more seed?



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Earth24


    What was the mix of seeds you got last year? Annuals or Periannuals?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Listed them in post #72, mostly periannuals very little annuals I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Having lots of nettles is a bad sign for your wildflower efforts. Nettles are an indicator of high soil fertility which is the opposite of what you want. Removing the nettles will not be enough prep to yield success you also need to remove the fertile topsoil.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭Bill Hook


    Maybe let it do it's thing this year and see what grows? More plants may emerge as the year progresses. Yellow Rattle seedlings are tiny at the moment and are hard enough to spot; I struggle to find them in the middle of the grass, dandelions, daisies, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Something to be aware of is the typical rate of recruitment of species within a natural meadow. It is reconned that you will gain approximately one species per decade if nature is left to its own devises. The initial colonizing will bring in a lot more but those will mostly be aggressive perennials that even in a meadow would be considered weeds (think docks and creeping buttercups and couch grass). So unless you actively accelerate the process you can be waiting for a very long time.

    One approach is to grow sods of wildflower mix and cut them in. Use the same soil as the lawn you are replacing but sterilize it before growing your sods.

    Another approach is to grow plugs in pots and plant them in when they are established, keep doing it year on year.

    Also make sure the flower mix you choose matches your soil type. Most wild flower suppliers don't offer specific soil profiles and many source their seed from abroad which is really bad. The only really good supplier of locally sourced seed for specific Irish soil profiles is wildflower.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Thats the hope, Ill carry on with this for now this year, Ill try something a bit more drastic next year, maybe rent a sod cutter and strip it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,263 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    Why not take off a strip this year then you have one strip thats a year ahead and can seed/grow into the other area.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Roundup is a useful tool. I advocate its use to clear Japanese Knotweed. He's right though a single heavy application of roundup is the easiest way to establish a meadow and if you are ideologically opposed to it be prepared for a hell of a lot more work.
    Its all about the right tool for the right job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,211 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Heavy applications of roundup are a waste of time. Gysophate takes time to work. Best results are with a litre per acres and let it time to work before you till

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    This single poppy is literally the only wildflower in my garden so far apart from the seriously common stuff like buttercups/knapweeds/sorrel/sow-thistles and normal thistles and it grew in my wild verges that I never even touched so first attempt was a total failure.

    This year I plan on being more aggressive, Ill be starting a regime of weakening the grass with concentrated vinegar and heavy scarifying with the dethatching rake for July/Aug until I have a proper bare seedbed and then reseeding again with another round of wildflower.ie seeds in Oct/Nov. I want to do it without glyphosphate, maybe if it fails again.

    I will also be getting set up to produce a load of plug plants in the Spring, mainly yellow rattle and a few others.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Did you ever have any success with this strategy?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    This single poppy is literally the only wildflower in my garden so far apart from the seriously common stuff like
    buttercups/knapweeds/sorrel/sow-thistles and normal thistles and it grew in my wild verges that I never even touched so first attempt was a total failure.

    that's wildflower racism!

    seriously though, why make work for yourself? you shouldn't expect success overnight; and it may be due to underlying conditions you'll find backbreaking to overcome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,211 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    This is mine this year all daisy's.

    I might cut it back and take the daisy's off and see could I weaken the sward

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I have a couple of areas that I want to grow wild, one is under some apple trees, the issues there are too much grass and a lot of hogweed. Without any other intervention it has grown queen ann's lace, docks - which are very pretty when they grow the really tall flower/seed heads in an orangy colour, buttercups (of course) and a few other smaller flowers like speedwell and a few daisies. The hog weed is being taken out but mostly getting its head chopped off before it seeds, its an annual so hopefully will just go away if it is caught soon enough. My daughter is very sensitive to the hogweed so we need to get rid of it.

    The other area has less variety but lots of huge thistles, hogweed and nettles. It is an area that has been wild for a long time and is very fertile, I have planted a good few fruit and hazel bushes in it and hopefully as they develop they will shade out some of the more aggressive weeds. There are already a very small number of bluebells which I hope will increase, and a lot of honeysuckle and ivy growing at ground level, which I hope will spread as I remove the four foot high nettles and even bigger thistles and hogweed. There are lots of nettles in other patches in the garden which will be allowed (as though I have any choice) to grow.

    I don't want to use herbicides on it as I don't want to lose the naturally growing weeds - other than the thistles and hogweed, if you look carefully there are other things that want to grow in the area, given a bit of space.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Using concentrated vinegar as a weedkiller? Not sure that that's a great idea tbh



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,999 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Oh, someone here told me it was a more natural alternative to Roundup, is there anything else I could use then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,972 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Oh? Maybe it is, I've never heard of anyone using it but there are others here who'd know a lot more though so maybe wait for some other feedback



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    The 5% vinegar that you put on your chips will only have a very limited effect on weeds, they will be more offended by it than killed, they may well shrivel but many of them will regrow from the roots. The 'concentrated' vinegar is 20% horticultural vinegar which is very corrosive to tools, sprays and you. Its acetic acid, which is just as much a chemical as weedkiller, except that weedkiller has been designed for the job, and overall is less damaging to the environment.

    If you want to spray chemicals on your garden (and in fairness, I use it on paths and gravel) use one designed for the purpose.



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