Wildflower Meadow Attempt

Thargor

Hi Ive mentioned this in a couple of places now but this is going to be my main thread about it for questions and troubleshooting as Im starting this week. Will post pics later.

I dont want to use roundup at all and theres no way Im getting a chain harrow or any machinery in by my small side alley. My plan was to just buy two 4X5 meter tarps from B&Q and weigh them down now after getting the grass strimmed and mowed, leave them until Sept then remove them and rake the area regularly and remove any weeds that spring up/let the birds at it for a couple of weeks then seed it all with the meadow mix from wildflowers.ie.

Do you think that will work? The tarps wont be the clear plastic they recommend for solarization of the soil which I have no idea where I would even get (dont want to use that much single-use plastic for one job either) but Ive seen plenty of other places saying just blocking light for that long will do the job just as well. Or is there a better way of doing this? Ill post pics later but basically those 2 tarps will perfectly fill the bulk of the garden while leaving a big H or 8 shaped path of normal grass throughout.

looksee

Don't underestimate the advice to have poor soil for your meadow. I saw a lovely meadow yesterday that was mostly ox-eye daisies and poppies growing out of very poor soil. In some places, on paths, some of the poppies were tiny the soil was so poor, but the rest made a great show, along with dozens of other species, often less showy but adding their own charm. Comfrey, weld, Scarlet Pimpernel, red clover, vetch, thistles, stitchwort, coltsfoot, sorrel, plus lots of plants I didn't know the names of. Killing existing vegetation will not remove it permanently, in due course what was growing there before will come back, meantime the weeds aka wildflowers that would grow there naturally are being pushed aside for plants that may or may not colonise.

Speedsie

There does seem to be a misconception that wildflowers are somehow different to weeds. Weeds are just plants in the 'wrong' place. My late father, born in the 20s, was an arable farmer, he would say a rose bush in his cornfield was a weed. But that corn in the rose garden was also a weed.

Embrace the 'weeds' in your wildflower meadow. Nettles are a valuable food source for many butterflies (peacock, tortoiseshell etc). The beautiful cinnabar moth requires ragwort. Your local wildflowers/weeds will find their way to your patch, or you could harvest seeds in the locality as well as relying on bought in mixes.

You will need to reduce the fertility of the existing grass land. Yellow rattle will parasitize the grass and weaken it.

This will take time, it's a marathon not a sprint!

You are doing great though, keep up the good work!

The Continental Op

OP hire one of these

or buy on of these - you seem to like doing things the hard way

and strip all the turf off the site.

Stack the turf in a wide narrow wall, cover it with a tarpaulin and in a years time you'll have the loam they talk about for compost mixes, but otherwise its just great quality soil.

Then you are starting off with lower fertility which as already pointed out greatly improves the chances of wildflowers growing over strong grass growth. You will in the process cut the roots of a few deep rooted weeds which may want removing as the re-immerge.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652982#Comment_120652982

The two 4X5 meter areas I mark out will be left wild, whatever happens happens, the wildflower.ie seeds will just be a once off helping hand at the start, Ill also be doing a pack of yellow rattle with them, I already have a big nettle patch and I wont be killing any ragwort that might appear either.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653577#Comment_120653577

The turf cutter machine is a good idea actually, Im surrounded by tool hire places here. Are they idiot proof to use? I dont have a whole lot of power tool experience.

Would people agree thats a better way of laying the initial seedbed for a wild meadow compared to the tarp method?

Water John

Maybe don't take off the tarp until next March, then rake to create a lazy or stale bed, if that's what you want to do. By raking you awaken the dormant seeds bank. Do you rake every 10 days to kill off most of the seed bank or do you let the natural seed bank form part of your wild flower meadow. I wouldn't leave soil bare over the winter. Farmers aren't even allowed do that anymore.

Apiarist

I had planted wildflowers on a 0.5 ac hillside plot 8 years ago. The grass sod had to be removed completely, because the site was not maintained for years and the sod was a 15-20 cm thick matt of roots and dead grass, nothing would grow through that. To expose the bare soil, an excavator front blade was used, and the grass was buried in trenches. I have then raked the site and manually planted the widlflower seed mix (from wildflowers.ie). The first 3 years, it was very wild and pretty, but then the grass started to dominate again. Right now it looks like a grass meadow with a lot of wildflowers, still good, but not as pretty as before.

The advice is to mow the plot in the autumn and remove the cuttings to keep the soil poorer. Plus plant yellow rattle to keep the grass under control.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655466#Comment_120655466

All the turf cutting machine is is a motor moving wheels and a cutter set underneath. The cutter usually vibrates so it cuts better.

Probably everything you need to know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drf6TpZflCI

In your case I'd consider cutting a nice thick turf so you are removing as much good topsoil as possible. Worth cutting the grass first.

Water John

It's a wild flower meadow. That means it contains grasses IWT. Should one plant some of the older grasses, such as Timothy, Fescues and they would then keep the other grasses in check.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655521#Comment_120655521

Thats the plan then thanks a million for that I wouldn't have thought of that at all, looks like it will be actually cheaper to rent one than buy the big tarps.

Apiarist

June 2022. 7 years after stripping grass to bare soil and planting a wildflower mix.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655514#Comment_120655514

Yeah definitely goint to be lots of the yellow rattle someone already told me to keep hitting it with that in patches every year for the first while. I like the grass meadow look so would be happy with that anyway, even now looking out at foot high grass in the evening sun its pretty great looking, a pure packed area of flowers like we have in our "wild" areas at work might look a bit unnatural.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655489#Comment_120655489

I thought leaving it bare over Winter would remove a lot of fertility from the soil like you're supposed to no? What time of year should I use the turf cutter then do you think? My plan was to lay the tarps now and then remove them in September, rake the soil clear for the birds, remove anything that tries to come up for the next couple of weeks then plant the wildflower seed at the start of October for germination in Spring leaving the soil fairly bare all Winter.

The tarps idea has now been replaced with the turf cutter but the timing and everything else is the same apart from that, is there a better way?

Water John

I set wild flower seed Mid Sept last and it largely failed. But it could be this idiot, but I don't know what I did wrong.😔

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655563#Comment_120655563

I would have no problem with that whatsoever, thats spectacular looking.

bakerbhoy

When is the best time to sow the yellow rattle. I autumn sowed two years ago and completely failed.

Bellie1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655563#Comment_120655563

Did you cut each autumn and take away ?

Bellie1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655571#Comment_120655571

When you say to hit with yellow rattle, you'd almost have to sow by pressing into soil with fingers bit by bit after year one ? There would be too many flowers etc to sow yellow rattle otherwise? I had this dilemma when tried introducing rattle last autumn into a small wildflower patch, trying to find bare patches of earth in between the flowers to press the rattle in. Took ages. Can't imagine doing in a big plot

Apiarist

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657705#Comment_120657705

No, I didn't. I only started doing it last autumn.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657735#Comment_120657735

I was picturing making clear spaces for a few plants in the patch with a spade, nothing major just enough to let it establish, grow it in clumps then rake the seeds around every September, long term project, Ill be mixing a good bit extra of yellow rattle into the wildflower.ie meadow seed aswell.

Alternatively placing a few rocks or roof tiles in strategic places in Winter, germinating the yellow rattle myself in my conservatory and transplant it onto these bare patches again in clumps not single plants in Spring (or whenever is best, Ill see what my research brings.

I signed up to the wildflower.ie nature walk/open day in July aswell down in Tipp so Ill have a list of questions ready for the main experts on the island that day.

Bellie1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658399#Comment_120658399

Come back and let us know what you learn. Have encouraged a few people with some big lawned areas to do wildflower meadows so want to make sure they do it right or they'll blame me! If raking the yellow rattle, is the raking not going to destroy the existing cut down plants? Ill have to do it to know exactly what you're on about I guess.

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058298303/wildflower-meadow-attempt

Elderly Gentleman who looks after parts of our estate "Says "1.mow the lawn 2. collect the grass cuttings 3. spread the Wildflower Seeds 4. cover the seeds with the saved grass cuttings.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659222#Comment_120659222

Im the last person you should be asking for gardening knowledge especially how to do a wildflower meadow but the one thing pretty much every tutorial on the subject agrees on is to cut it down in September/October, let it lie for a few days if possible to shed its seed then rake it all up to give it a good final shake/expose a bit of soil for the falling seeds/protect from birds and remove the cuttings somewhere else, yellow rattle gets its name because of the seeds rattling in their pod, I imagine planting a few clumps of it to make little seed factories.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659467#Comment_120659467

Interesting, something for the list of questions to ask the experts about I suppose but Ive literally never seen that advice in the many hours of reading and Youtube Ive done on this subject, Ill report back what they say, it would be absolutely ideal if it works!

Danzy

Grass cuttings are the harshest enemy of wild flowers.

The more you take away grass cuttings, the more wild flowers you'll have down the line. The less you do it, it will finish the show in a short few years.

Water John

What that elderly gentleman recommends is quite similar to what is sometimes used in farming situations. Harvesting hay bales in July, when it has lots of seeds. Then feeding them as winterage to cattle on ground where you want to improve the plant diversity. You roll out the bale and the cattle both eat and trample it. Some seeds also go through their digestive system. The seeds are all walked in by the cattle.

Bill Hook

There's lots of useful information about creating a wildflower meadow on Biodiversity Ireland's website:

https://biodiversityireland.ie/faq/should-i-buy-wildflower-seed/

I'm on year 4 of "wilding" the front lawn (roughly 20m x 4m) by sowing yellow rattle into the tightly cut and roughly raked existing lawn. The yellow rattle grew best in two spots where the vegetation had been killed by two round straw bales which I had left there over the summer (by accident, not design). Each year I cut it once late in the year (sept/oct), leave the hay on the ground for a week (or more) and then rake it off.

If I get around to it I run the lawnmower over it so it is really short when the spring bulbs (crocus, early tulips) emerge. Because it is the front garden I planted bulbs for a succession of colour interest in the spring (crocus, narcissi, tulips, iris, alliums).

The yellow rattle has bulked up/spread and is starting to flower now.

I collected the yellow rattle myself by using the Biodiversity Ireland website to find the closest patch of it to my house.

This our 3rd year of having a wildflower area in the lawn. This is the first year that I’ve seen the yellow rattle taking off. I’d imagine its impact will show next year, will interesting to see the development!

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659785#Comment_120659785

I will put a picture of his wildflower garden up here ad also what time of year sowed the seeds

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659928#Comment_120659928

What do you cut the years growth of wild stuff with?

Bill Hook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660811#Comment_120660811

A petrol strimmer. It takes about 20 minutes.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653577#Comment_120653577

That turf cutter is actually a massive machine and I have no way of moving it from the rental place on the other side of town, do you think Id get away with using a rototiller on the ground instead to prepare the seedbed? I can get my hands on one of these easily enough from a neighbour down at the parents:

https://www.chadwicks.ie/garden-tiller-till-garden-tiller-till-garden-tiller-till.html

If I do it once and keep it hand tilled with a rake until sowing time would that have the same effect do you think? Wildflowers.ie even says:

Pre Sowing Instructions

The best meadows are started well in advance of sowing wildflowers. Create a weed free soil on well-prepared firm (well rolled) ground. 

Once the soil is free of weeds you can sow the seeds. 

In our nursery, where we can, we are leaving the ground fallow for one year to allow the complete killing of weeds.

Prepare the ground:

Clear the ground of any weeds before sowing by using a systemic weed killer &/or cultivate it 'organically' by tilling the soil repeatedly during the dry summer months.

To prepare the ground, kill and remove all weeds grass and stones. 

Remove anything that will get in the way of cutting machinery to be used later.  

The Continental Op

The only advantage of the turf cutter is that it removes the fertile top spoil if you rotovate it then you are improving the soil unless you then remove some of it. Rotovating is fine but then you need to keep on top of it with a decent dutch hoe which will be a lot of work. If you keep rotovating then you keep bringing weed seeds to the surface.

looksee

I jumped to the conclusion that the OP was creating a wildflower meadow because that is what is mentioned in the title, and is probably what the OP is creating. However its worth mentioning that you do not have to create a meadow, you can create a wildflower area with plants suited to fertile soil.

I have an area on the north side of an old, tall field hedge, hawthorns mostly but other trees, with ferns (not bracken) and foxgloves growing against the remnants of the old stone wall. It is a mix of light shade and heavy shade. The soil is good loamy soil from decades of leaves falling on it. It is free draining. I asked for a quote from Wildflowers.ie and they advised me on wildflowers that will grow on fertile soil in shade - a woodland mix and a hedgerow mix. I have a good bit of work to do to clear the area and will sow it in autumn (recommended for shade areas).

OP have you contacted them for a quote and told them what you are hoping to do? It may be that you can do something with the site as it is, rather than going down the poor soil/meadow route.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655489#Comment_120655489

Maybe its obvious but, out of interest, what is the thinking about not leaving soil bare over winter?

I need to remove nettles and grass, there are lots of nettles in the garden, big patches in other parts of the hedgerow. The entire place would be nettles, creeping buttercup and grass if I didn't challenge it. The person who takes a ride-on mower over the greater part of the grass area is offended by the fact that it is a sheen of gold at the moment, keeps giving me tips on how to get rid of weeds 😁

Thargor

Tbh I got a nice thatching rake and it only takes a couple of pulls to strip the grass off, I was surprised at how effortless it was, I could easily do the whole garden this way in a few hours then monitor it over the rest of the Summer before seeding it in Sept/Oct. The wildflowers.ie open day is on Jul 3rd so we'll see what the experts think but I might just end up prepping the seedbeds this way. Ive done a test strip now to see what comes up between now and then.

looksee

Is that the Urlingford day? I misread it as June and was sorry I had missed it. Might make an effort to go since its July, and if I can round up a carful 😀.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659785#Comment_120659785

That's a recipe for a very poor farmer with ground that won't grow much of anything in the summer after being walked and trampled by cattle. I've seen these sort of farms and they are not pretty usually cattle up to their eyes in muck if you feed them outside in Winter. The cattle are usually thin malnourished and pot bellied. That sort of hay is very course and unappealing to cattle they would break out of that field if they got a sniff of properly ensiled grass cut when green and leafy.

Very rare to see this nowadays with cattle as they are worth too much, however still slot of horses abandoned on mucked up fields in winter, very miserable looking too

Livestock died in the good old days when they were fed like this

Water John

The main reason for green cover is to stop nutrient leaching and co2 escaping into the atmosphere.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715484#Comment_120715484

Nutrient leaching is what Im after! CO2 not so good but hopefully a nice big chunk of habitat going forward will make up for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715239#Comment_120715239

Yeah details here, it took them a week to reply to my email FYI:

http://www.wildflowers.ie/wild-zone/open_day/wildflower_growers_open_day.htm

Just noticed this when I was getting you that link actually:

Everyone who pays goes home with free seed to value of €30.00

Water John

Nitrogen I realise gives you leaf, not flowers. That's the only nutrient that you might want to deplete. Then I'm a farmer.

Tree

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715757#Comment_120715757

I got my wildflowers for my suburban wildflower garden from them. Very happy with the result (yeah, you wait for a response and then it's precisely what you need to know).

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715888#Comment_120715888

I got a reply within 48 hours so apparently it varies depending on time of year etc. I haven't bought the seeds yet but what they suggested was dead on.

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659467#Comment_120659467

Sorry guys I need to correct my post above as I spoke to the man himself the other day . Cut & collect the grass on the lowest lawnmower setting then pile 4 inches of the cut grass on the area that you wish to sow your wildflower seeds. mix wildflower seeds with compost and spread on this bed of grass cuttings, cover with a bit of topsoil and then walk on it. I will do this in September and where I cut the grass i will also Put my scariffier on this patch to prepare it. apparently the grass cuttings kill the grass under neat which helps to let the wildflower seeds take root.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715239#Comment_120715239

Sorry its July 5th not 3rd.

Water John

Delboy, I'll be very interested in the results. My concern would be that the rotting cut grass would inhibit seed germination. Best of luck with it, you're our Giunea pig.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715776#Comment_120715776

But if you don't have leaf ,you won't have flours because the plant gets it's energy from sunlight on leaves then it can generate flowers. Where does a cherry blossom get all it's flowers in Spring, from energy stored up the season before from all the leaves it had out all that season. A flour is only one part of the lifecycle of a plant by trying to artificially generate wildflowers by removing top soil etc as well as degrading your garden you are also interfering with nature. It's just another artificial surface like a golf course green

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720226#Comment_120720226

I tend to agree with this approach. If you have very poor soil then using it for a wildflower meadow is a good use for it. If you have good soil and want to introduce wildflowers, check out the flowers that will grow on whatever sort of soil you have and encourage them. Changing the structure of your soil doesn't seem like the most ecologically satisfactory solution.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720226#Comment_120720226

Thats logical but totally wrong thinking. The grass is what will take any available nitrogen and use it to grow leaves. We don't want grass competing with the wild flowers so we don't want any more than the minimum amount of nitrogen. I've never put any fertilizer on my lawn in 25 years (before that it was field) and it is still far to fertile to make a good wildflower meadow.

Some wild flowers have particular nutrient requirements but most of all they want a lack of competition. Primulas like a lot of Potash and often do well around the edge of an old bonfire. The bonfire helping reduce the competition from grass and other plants and providing a boost of potash.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720403#Comment_120720403

Well if your garden is too good for wildflowers aren't you lucky, you have soil that was supposed to be growing crops or great trees. The world is full of poor barren soils for growing wildflowers, would it not be better to break up old industrial areas with no top soil anyway for wildflowers etc rather than degrading top quality garden soil for this. If people want to let everything go wild , that's fair enough but ripping out the best of topsoil for this I am totally against. Once that topsoil is removed it rarely gets put back. We have enough encroachment on food growing land as it is from development and urban sprawl, if you have a garden with good soil please leave it alone

Bellie1

Apologies for slightly highjacking the thread but it's a bit relevant. Planted native wildflower mix last year on a patch that neighbours can see..was hoping to encourage them to do similar by making it looks really pretty and we'll(it's facing shared carpark). Last year not so bad, but this year it's dominated by wild carrot(yarrow?) and ox eye daisies and they're outcompeting each other and too tall,flopping over etc. In October am considering digging it all ,. removing and plants roots etc and planting a low growing nativ mix that will look a bit tidier. Not going to use weedkiller so if just dig rotavate(as we did last year) and plant loads of yellow rattle and low growing mix,.that should work? In short term I want to remove a half the wild yarrow to give other species a chance to grow this summer-do I need to dig it up or just cut to the base?