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Foynes Line

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    and yet rail is competing perfectly well with trucks within 300km as it is hence it sounds like these expert reports are discredited.

    the game is changing, trucks being driven for minimum wage is no longer viable and ultimately rail will be playing a bigger roll going forward in freight movements.

    how big that roll will get, who knows, but a bigger roll it will play.

    anyway, a credible case to reopen the line to foynes has been shown, proven and accepted. if there was no case it would not be reopened.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    with the shortage of truck drivers likely to get worse then you might in some cases shipping stuff a short distance to a railhead may become more common as it will allow more shorter movements and greater efficiency with the resources available.

    it won't happen in every case but it may very well happen more.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    it was given a good tyre kicking at the time, to the extent I was consulted about rolling stock availability and gauge clearance on the Ennis line..

    Rail is ideal for this kind of traffic as it gets it off roads and away from the public.. There were similar projects in the past including asbestos from both lanesboro and Bellacorrick power stations to Dublin port..A block train running 6 times a week back and forward shouldn’t be a big reach for IE to support projects like this one but unfortunately is given the chronic under investment in rail freight in this country..

    One needs only look at Roches own history( Seveso and the missing drums) to see why operations like the Clare castle demolition are treated with the highest level of import, and why cost isn’t always the driving factor.. A quick look at the projects website is a Good illustration of this



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    where is it going less than 300km? Ballina to Wexford is more than 300km. McKinsey were commissioned by Brussels to write a report on how to reduce congestion around the big ports in Europe and rail was one of the solutions, there isn't a paragraph on rail less than 300km, rather it reports on 300-500 km and above 500km. The CEO of Dublin port said recently they do less than 1% on rail and half of that was Tara mines, there just isn't demand according to him which is in line with the McKinsey report



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    all existing freight flows, so Ballina to Dublin and Ballina to Waterford(both timber and containers)

    The 300km figure is based on a consultants report, doesn’t mean it’s true in the real world..

    Also fairly sure you are referring to the now former CEO of Dublin port who was anti-rail



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    the 300km figure is simple economics, time, distance and cost of two competing industries, not exactly something that can't be measured accurately. Know nothing about the politics of the former CEO, 1% is 1% regardless of your likes and dislikes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the report along with your claims have been discredited as i can bet if you look hard enough you will find flows very much within the 300km as there is a world outside ireland.

    rail freight will be increasing that is a given, by how much who knows but increasing it will be.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    economics are going to change for some flows as poor wages for driving trucks is coming to an end hence price increases for movements.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    so the solution is to spend hundreds of millions of euro on rail by government because there there is wage disequilibrium in the private sector???? How about just pay them more until we reach equilibrium



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    so it’s a top end figure, likely based on a cost per km calculation from the U.K. or somewhere in Europe and not allowing for any of the variables in the Irish context( driver wages, fuel costs, road access charging, train lengths, railway access charges).. So as a working figure it might tell us something but that doesn’t mean it’s in any way gospel..

    The DPCs 1% figure came up when they were using rail freight as a political football to try get land back from the revenue as they misjudged where the demand would arise from Brexit.. It suited their agenda but again it ignores a few keys points including

    1) rail pays to have containers loaded in the port and road doesn’t

    2), The 1% figure is only based on their throughout.. Rail moves some of the heaviest containerised loads in this country(laden ISO tanks) over longer than average distances so in terms of laden tonne kilometres would have a higher percentage.. DPC are only looking at it from their perspective rather than rail as part of the overall hinterland transport to/from/through the port..

    3) Access to the port for trains is limited and has been since 2020

    4) Only 1 of the container terminals has a direct rail link

    Post edited by andrewfaulk on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    well it's not hundreds of millions for a start.

    investment in rail is buttons compared to investment in roads so it's not a big deal especially when it's only being done where a clear case has been shown to do it.

    the idea that we are just reopening lines for the craic is just nonsense.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I’ve said this before but the cynic in me keeps going back to the Ryder Cup. Because there’s nothing more that this country likes than a major sporting event on its doorstep and the government pull out all the stops for one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    you think Ireland is some kind of anomaly when it comes to costs? Out of kilter with the oecd for example? Come off it.

    Access to ports has been restricted for 4 years and this is why rail freight has cratered over recent decades. Irish Rail closed close down to freight for an economic reason, what is different now other than we have a motor way system we didn't have then?

    rail pays for loading in the ports? Are you saying that's not baked into the price of transport? Find it difficult to believe



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    in fact it is 100s of millions, just look at Irish Rail company accounts.

    clear case is the green minister for transport in his infinite wisdom. This is the man who said diesel engines were the way to go a decade ago when my dog knew better. This is the man who now says the future of rail is battery engines when a charge will use up more energy than a hospital and run for about 100km. The man is a plank

    Then you have the like of the management at foynes port driving this clear case. They'd sell their granny for investment in the port.

    If it made sense of course I'd support it. I despite the poor driving of hgvs on Irish roads.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,333 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    What has a freight line got to do with the Ryder Cup? Even in the unlikely event that some passenger services are available for the week of the tournament, that is only 10km of the 40km line that's being reopened.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    Ireland is an outlier in many ways when it comes to rail freight, including geography, wage costs, permitted train lengths, to name just a few..

    Irish rail exited a lot of freight business, but that was twenty years ago and a LOT has changed since then.. A lot has even changed in the last 4 years in transport, it’s a dynamic industry that is constantly evolving.. As you were told already, driver wages and fuel costs have risen considerably since the 2000s, the days of Eastern European drivers working for poor wages is coming to an end as they are all heading home as the gap in the standard of living has closed.. Fuel costs jumped drastically after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, 10% fuel surcharges on top of increased base haulage rates aren’t unusual anymore, they are the norm for the past 2 years..

    Find it hard to believe or not but it’s a FACT that IWT pay lift charges to have boxes loaded onto and off the train and no haulier does..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    @end of the road

    Any chance you could point us to where the "credible case to reopen the line to foynes has been shown, proven and accepted" please ? As far as I know no business case was prepared or put forward and the decision was nothing other than a whim.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    of course each country has specific cost structure but you have to compare costs of competing entities within the same market, costs are increased across all sectors within the market, Irish Rails employee costs are more than 50% of revenue. Length of carriage is a less economical in Ireland than within other countries due to the fact we can't carry as many carriages . You haven't explained how rail will work in 2025 inside 300km when it was a bust when we had lane ways for road infrastructure.

    I still believe lift charges are baked into the overall cost to the user

    if you had an electronics manufacturer in Kells say for arguments sake would you loads your wares on a train or get them delivered to the door in less time by the motorway network?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    actually, it's not quite true to say irish rail closed down rail freight for economic reasons.

    while a lot of it went away by itself, irish rail did in the end decide to try and close it all so as to simply rely on the subsidies for the passenger service.

    mayo stood up and said no hence it still has it's freight trains however.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    hundreds of millions for the network as a whole, an absolute bargain in reality.
    multiples more will be spent on the road network and really only the main roads as the local ones are in ****.
    governments were lied to about the diesel situation, we weren't the only country duped by that so blaming aemon ryan is just whinging nonsense.
    charging infrastructure is miles ahead in efficiency to what it was years ago, the amounts of electricity they use are getting smaller and smaller by the day.
    the old charging systems may have used more then a hospital for a charge but it's definitely not the case now, by any feet.
    the line reopening makes sense hence it is happening, if it didn't, it wouldn't, it's as simple as that.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    how about ask the minister seeing as he will have it.

    i can say with absolute certainty that if no case was put forward for reopening this line it would not happen, and i will not be convinced otherwise.

    ireland just does not reopen lines on a whim, it has never happened and it never will.

    even to get big projects like dart + done has taken decades in reality as there have been plans going back as far as the 70s at least for a much more expansive operation.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    and there it is, so now 100s of millions is a bargain, still haven't indicated where McKinsey have been discredited.

    I'm taking about battery run locomotives replacing diesel engines which use more energy than a hospital to charge.

    lied to about what diesel situation? He said we should buy diesel cars which is a cleaner fuel than petrol. Any monkey would know that's complete nonsense.

    using the poor state of the haulage sector another of Ryan's gaslighting.

    below is Ryan speaking in Leinster House Feb 23, amazing that he seems to follow expert opinion when it suits,

    below is Jim Meade….. question is really what is a short hop on an island about on average 120 miles between the cities

    of course Irish Rail will find a business case to build railways. It's like discussing fire with a pyromaniac

    Post edited by Auld Slapper on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Funny how no one moans about money spent on roads that don't get much traffic and don't "make a profit" but throw the toys out of their pram in the rare instance when a rail line gets reopened.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,333 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    23rd July 2019.

    As the Deputy is aware, Shannon Foynes Port Company (SFPC) has been leading on work in relation to a potential
    reinstatement of the Limerick to Foynes rail line as part of the Port's overall masterplan redevelopment.

    The detailed design process and associated reports commissioned by SFPC were completed at the end of 2018.

    I understand SFPC and Iarnród Éireann are currently working together to determine a viable business case for potential reinstatement from a rail freight perspective. This process will require a feasibility study which SFPC and Iarnród Éireann estimate will take six months to complete.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-07-23/2497/

    There has definitely been a business case put forward for this line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    Correct, but SFPC have wanted this for years and were being dismissed. The Ryder Cup gives the government an incentive to rebuild it. That's one of the reasons why the N7 from Red Cow to Naas was built to the standard that it is. It's probably just me being cynical, but that's down to the government's disinterest in rail over the last 60+ years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    we spent 1bn on decentralisation on the back of paying consultants 75m on the business feasibility study. We shut down Nenagh and Ennis A&E on the back of a feasibility study and people are now dying in Limerick A&E due to massive overcrowding. Business feasibility study is Gov's use to justify a fait accompli



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    i don't think the Ryder Cup has any influence on the rail. The government gave an undertaking to the European Tour that the motorway would be complete by then. The pro am welcomed 40k attendees to the event in 2022 and the traffic management system worked very well.

    building a passenger rail system is a hell of a lot different than a freight system for obvious reasons



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This was in planning before this Government but it being a shovel ready project in a constituency where the local Green TD dreams about trains in the shower, it was very well placed to go ahead to be fair.

    Business cases are very malleable and could easily be made to look very favourable when climate concerns are accounted for. (I'm not suggesting that took place here)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    firstly, freight is carried on wagons not carriages..

    Road being laneways, again you are talking about 20 plus years ago, I am talking about today and in the future.. We have had an extensive motorway network for a good while, which is effectively a subsidy to road freight as haulage doesn’t pay for access on large parts of the network.. Despite this, rail freight actually grew from 2009- 2018..

    Rail already works under 300km given the right circumstances, as I’ve already explained the 300km is not gospel..

    Lift charges are part of the rail cost, but it’s hardly a level playing field of rail pays and road doesn’t, and it is disIngenious of DPC to ignore this key fact..

    Your electronics co in Kells is meaningless, rail has a niche which is high volumes of long(by Irish standards) distances.. we could talk about hypotheticals all day but unless they have volume and or distance they are meaningless



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Thanks for all your certainty that a business case exists, and the circumstantial evidence you dredged up. Unfortunately it amounts to nothing. Contrary to your unsubstantiated beliefs, no business case appears to have been prepared and or presented. The decision to reinstate the line was a ministerial whim. And the risk is that when it turns out to be a massive white elephant it will be yet another coffin nail in the future of rail freight in the country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    yes and you are still incorrect about them using more energy then a hospital to charge, because as i explained, charging systems and batteries are way way more efficient then when it was the case that your claim had validity, which was years ago.
    many governments were lied to by the manufacturers about diesel cars and the technology within them to clean up emissions and the refinement of diesel to apparently clean it up, clearly it was the case that any monkey would not know that was complete nonsense seeing as the purchasing of diesel cars increased and the government bought in to what the manufacturers were telling them.
    you are just saying this in hindsight to try and discredit ryan and blame him for something which wasn't his fault, you haven't discredited him as it was ultimately government policy to encourage the buying of diesel cars and ryan had no actual say in it.
    the poor state of the haulage industry is a fact, operating on poor wages and ultra low margines was always unsustainable ultimately and now the chickens are coming home to roost, not ryan's fault.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it's really at the moment just a whinge about ryan because he wants to make motorists who will choose the car no matter what, actually pay for what they use.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    2 things done that were wrong to do don't make everything wrong.

    stupidly closing a&es don't make the reopening of a rail line with a case to reopen, wrong.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,279 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    it wasn't a ministerial whim, i understand it's hard to come to terms with that you can't have a go at ryan on this one but ultimately a case was put forward and the government agreed with it.

    i have heard it all before about how reopening x rail line will stop investment in rail/be another knail in the coffin of rail freight as you have just claimed ETC ETC.

    neither are true, the game has changed and the government will be investing more in rail and rail freight, a mix of at their own hands and pressure from elsewhere.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper




  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    here's the rub on battery run locomotives….we won't be using them. Just wanted to see what your answer would be, like your answer to my repeated request for your source on the McKinsey report. It seems you like to make stuff up unfortunately



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    You stated that "a credible case to reopen the line to foynes has been shown, proven and accepted" On being challenged you have failed to produce a shred evidence to support this. You arguments are nothing but conjecture. And now you're moving on to whataboutery.

    Pointless trying to argue with you when you can't accept facts. There isn't a business case for reopening this line. It's a financial basket case. Fine if it's being done for reasons of nostalgia, ministers playing with trains, ministers pursuing their vision or whatever you're having yourself. But reopening the line for freight wouldn't under any circumstances be considered if it rested on a business case.

    There wasn't and isn't a business case. Simple as.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,333 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Shannon Foynes Port secured €800,000 from the EU in 2015 to study the feasbility of re-opening the line, possible designs and getting planning approvals needed for the project.

    "These necessary preliminary works and consenting requirements, completed in 2019 and costing €1.9 million, were funded by Shannon Foynes Port Company and undertaken by Irish Rail, " Mr Keating said.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/reopening-limerick-foynes-rail-freight-line-makes-sense-says-minister-1.4369536

    It was far from a ministerial whim. The studies were done before he assumed office.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,694 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    The "studies" were a design report. Nothing more. There was no business case. At some point over the last few years the minister realised that there was a real chance that his score card on rail would consist of "0" in terms of what was delivered on his watch. There was a hunt around for something that was shovel ready and this was what crawled off a mantlepiece. Anything more worthwhile would have required a railway order and would have been subject to DEPR's Infrastructure Guidelines. The cost was not enormous in terms of the country's budget and so it was allowed to proceed to keep him quiet and give him something to shout about. Whatever way you look at it it's a financial basket case, makes no sense whatsoever and would not have survived any process involving a business case. And it is more likely than not to seriously damage the cause of rail freight in Ireland in the long term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Where is the "business case" for roads?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭Economics101


    To a huge extent, the viabiity of railfreight depends on the how rail and road are treated in terms of taxes and subsidies. Access charges to the rail network are apparently very high in Ireland, and the annual road tax on HGVs is relatively low (it was reduced a few years ago thanks to lobbying). As carbon taxes kick in, this will hit the costs of road vehicles more then rail (even with diesel locos).

    There needs to be a review of these issues, in order to establish a level playing field.

    It should have been done before the Foynes project started, but even at this stage it would be fundamental in establishing the scope for rail freight from both an environmental and economic perspective.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Large road schemes have a cost/benefit analysis; not having an income stream makes having a business case as such irrelevant - they're always going to 'lose' money in that regard.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    foynes port is never going to achieve the numbers they have predicted, look at the increase in traffic that roslare has done since Brexit. 6 ships per day has turned into 36, they are queuing up to dock there, yeah we foynes is a deep water port but they are living in dream land, commercial decisions have gone with Wexford and as they say the customer is always right



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    diesel won't be an issue in the near future, it's probable to that drivers won't be an issue in the medium term.

    https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/news-stories/press-releases/2023/may/volvo-trucks-tests-hydrogen-powered-electric-trucks-on-public-roads.html



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    Foynes and Rosslare serve two very different markets, Foynes is “dirty” bulk and fuel/Oil, Rosslare is RO/RO including containers and trade cars, with small occasional bulk loads of logs.. Project cargo is probably the only area where they overlap/compete directly


    Comparing apples to pears a bit there



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    The lack of cheap green hydrogen is a massive brake on hydrogen being rolled out.. Much easier and more efficient to move freight on electrictrified railways.. Let’s not forget LNG being the next fuel in haulage about 5 years ago, turned out to be a dead end..

    And as for AI, if it can’t work in California with wide boulevards and blue skies, it has no hope on the N5 In horizontal rain

    Post edited by andrewfaulk on


  • Registered Users Posts: 28 Auld Slapper


    green hydrogen's problem isn't really availability. There's a company in ballina amongst a plethora within Europe which is seperating the O from the H2 to make medical oxygen and the outcome is H from which they are producing green hydrogen. Rather more is its complicated storage and transport. The pressure required is vastly more than say natural gas so the pipes need to need to be replaced with far more robust pipes. If there's a green will then this surely is the silver bullet where investment has to be focused on.

    WRT the current AI I agree it's not ready but that day isn't far off and what will be the end game for the motorist is when its robustness is confirmed by Gov we the people will be uninsurable overnight. The outcomes from that are incredible. Start buying the halfway houses now!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    I’m well aware of the situation around hydrogen infrastructure but that company in Ballina don’t seem to be actually producing the stuff, just building the wind farms to provide power at the moment which is a slow process.. Also, changing to hydrogen doesn’t strengthen the case for more trucks at the expense of rail freight.. Rail in this country burns about 30% less fuel on a typical journey from Dublin to Ballina, and can also be converted to operate on Hydrogen as a fuel.. In fact, it is probably going to be easier to convert a loco to run on hydrogen(IE already working on one) than a truck, as weight is less of an issue in a rail application.. Longer trains with the arrival on new air braked rolling stock is likely to lead to longer trains on the network also, with a further reduction in rails fuel burn



  • Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    while great to see Foynes being reopened on one level, genuinely hard to see realistically what the freight to traverse it will be? This was a pure political decision, if there is a business case, cigarette packet comes to mind.

    The other option is to locate something there to haul freight to … an incinerator, the amount of trucks from around the country hauling waste to Dublin to Poolbeg for ‘thermal treatment’ is very notable, could some of this go by rail instead of by road? Is there scope for a timber processing plant in Foynes as per Belview and haul logs? Much of the inward freight here is finished goods and comes either via shipping container or unaccompanied truck trailer, is there scope to move this to rail? I know the former is nearly if not already dead, dunno if the overhead clearance is there on rail bridges to move the latter? Some of this would require marshalling yards at the other end somewhere .. how feasible any of this is is difficult to say.



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