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Fired from bar-job for not charging staff full price of pints

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,559 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    What we really need to know from the OP is what conversation was had between the boss and the son.

    I doubt it was as simple as "your fired mate" (although it is possible with some of the dinosaurs and coke heads hanging around in hospitality)

    Far more likely the son was confronted and admitted guilt and was then rightly sacked or walked. That would easily be seen as a "satisfactory process"



  • Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭Ted222


    Nobody’s saying that.

    What’s being said is that there’s a way it needs to be done to protect the employer from any subsequent claim of unfair dismissal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    Maverick or not, rules are rules.

    Out in the big world, and college student bar work isn't it. He'll have to learn and accept rules he may not like or agree with.

    That's real life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,559 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    And we don't know if that was done or not in this case.

    Most of the time it really is a simple conversation when you work in an industry full of computerized tills and CCTV.

    I get the feeling some people are coming at this from a world of office/factory style "he said, she said" HR complains.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Tell your son to take a week off and then look for a different but similar job at a cafe for example, get him to say he is looking for a change, and get someone he worked with to give him a reference.

    It is better to leave it behind him as it is his last year of college which is only two months away move on from it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,151 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    In a criminal case a judge would clearly mitigate that and say the accused did not benefit from the theft.

    Were the other staff members that got cheaper drinks sanctioned too? They must have known they underpaid.

    It seems very heavy handed of the employer to go for the barman. Where is the due process employers are supposed to follow when embarking on a sacking ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,196 ✭✭✭Augme


    Because there's significant case law in this area that suggests otherwise.


    The recent case of Arkadiusz Grzyb v Lidl Ireland Gmbh ADJ-00033038 demonstrates that an employer must ensure that the “punishment fits the crime” in respect of determining what disciplinary sanction (if any) may be appropriate where an investigation finds that the employee may have a case to answer in respect of their conduct at work.


    In this case the company found the Complainant guilty of gross misconduct for theft due to non-adherence to cash management procedures, write off management, and inventory control following an investigation.


    The Workplace Relations Commission found that “…..the sanction of dismissal does not come within the band of reasonable responses and is disproportionate. I find the Complainant was unfairly dismissed on substantive grounds”. The employees financial loss was approximately €23,000 but the compensation was reduced to €17,000 as it was found that the employee had contributed to his own dismissal.





  • Registered Users Posts: 5,196 ✭✭✭Augme


    Just because you did it, doesn't mean it is allowed. Worth noting that cctv evidence is not always enough too.





  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,972 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    How exactly can he take a week off from a job that he has been fired from?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,378 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭tomhammer..



    It seems that you can summarily fire someone

    You have to be able to prove it

    Just because you've fired them isn't proof of anything

    That comes later if at all



  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 23,063 ✭✭✭✭beertons


    Happens all the time in the bar game. No mates rates, unless the owner/manager is serving you. Live and learn. Don't do it again and move on.

    He could have saved a receipt from earlier, and said a customer bought him 2 drinks as a tip.



  • Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭JVince


    That would have been worse. Till systems are very advanced. I can watch in real time transactions going through different tills on my mobile.

    An unusual transaction would raise a flag. Two "glasses" of beer late at night probably got noticed immediately and looked at.


    A couple of clicks on the CCTV system and you've matched the transaction to two pints.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,214 ✭✭✭monseiur


    There's more to this than the OP is telling us or that the son is telling his father.

    I used to frequent a pub some years ago and regularly witnessed one part time, (weekend) barman serve a group of 4 sometimes up to 6 of his mates (their tipple of choice was Fat Frogs in pint glasses) One lad would hand over a €10.00, barman would open the till and go thru the motions and give back at least €6 or €7 in loose change. It later transpired that what I witnessed was just the tip of the iceberg. (pub no longer in business)

    My sister in law and her husband bought a pub, it was their first time in the pub trade and to say they were green is an understatement. It's over 3 hours drive from us so we only visit a few times a year. On my second visit I nearly fell off my seat when I recognized the bar man on duty - he was the very same lad who was serving the free Fat Frogs to his friends.

    To cut a long story short hidden cameras were put in place and he was caught 'fiddling the till' big time and other indiscretions. Needless to say he was sacked and he immediately threatened solicitors letters, unfair dismissal case etc. in labour court....but when he realised there was video evidence he disappeared without trace.

    It turned out that he had glowing references from two previous bars he worked in one being my old local, both turned out to be bogus which were taken at face value and not checked out.😒



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Of course, but it is also fairly easy to detect these days, which is why it is so dumb to do. In my experience most people who think they have a cunning plan very rarely do.

    Although on one occasion I had a client where I was sure one of their barmen was on the take, but I could not figure out how he was doing it. He passed ever single check I carried out, except his lifestyle did not match his income! It took nearly a year but eventually I crack it - the bugger was buying his own spirits at a cash and carry and selling them over the counter in the bar! That is why all the control systems were within balanced on every inspection. It's just on two occasions I noticed that the number of spirit glasses used and washed vastly outnumbered the amount of spirits sold at the end of the night.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    You can always summarily fire a person, you just have to be willing to accept the financial consequences of doing so. And yes I have known some employers who have do it. Some people are very casual about employee theft and some take great exception to it. I remember at one stage commenting to the finance director of a multinational company that there was a hundred pounds (yep it's that long ago) unaccounted for in their van sales, but it was not material given the size of the turnover. Only to be told "It's bloody material to me!" and he made it his mission for he next couple of months to track down that van driver!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    I should have said the law protects you against unfair summary dismissal

    So it's correct to say anyone can be summarily dismissed but it may not stand up to later scrutiny

    Ime in retail you're out the door for any theft . Be it a €1 sweet or more



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Proof of wrongdoing or theft is not as simple as a manager saying he had them 'bang to rights '

    It can be subject to adjucation if the incident(s) are disputed



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,174 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    A part time barman got sacked for giving cheap drink to his mates and there’s people here bringing up criminal charges, litigation and WRC clauses?

    Suggest a few of you take a step back here



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,172 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Its very common in this forum, there are people who think every business is constantly in the WRC because they didn't use the right words when giving a warning, and that every SME has a full HR department to deal with their 5 staff.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,717 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    So in the case of a pub, saving the CCTV recording of the till being checked would be pretty good evidence.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It’s cos you can’t be trusted now basically. If you’ll steal a few sweets what’s to say a few euro isn’t next?

    I couldn’t let someone handle my cash or anything in a retail/hospitality business if I couldn’t trust them it’s that simple.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭tomhammer..




  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭Capt. Autumn


    OP here.

    Thanks to everybody for their inputs.

    My son has admitted he was too cavalier with the rules. He never set out to scam his employers and the scale of misbehavior, it was very much on the lower end. However, he now understands the gravity of his mistakes and the consequences that they have brought about. He woke up the next day, worked on his CV, and has already secured new bar work in an establishment much closer to home. I have no doubt that his new employers will not regret hiring him. He is a good lad.

    There probably is a case to present to the WRC but it's a zero-win game. I hope he takes this episode as a life lesson to take with him for the rest of his working life. In the service industry integrity is everything.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,972 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    My son has admitted he was too cavalier with the rules.

    He wasn't cavalier with the rules - he broke the rules badly by stealing from his employer. That's a serious no-no and he needs to grow up. You also need to stop protecting him from himself.

    Would he disrespect his employer like this when he gets a job after college?

    He never set out to scam his employers and the scale of misbehavior, it was very much on the lower end.

    He deliberately stole from them by defrauding them. He knew what he was doing and you need to face this as a fact. There isn't a lower end - you just don't do it (have you ever stolen from your employer and if not, why?)!

    However, he now understands the gravity of his mistakes and the consequences that they have brought about. He woke up the next day, worked on his CV, and has already secured new bar work in an establishment much closer to home. I have no doubt that his new employers will not regret hiring him. He is a good lad.

    That's good. Hopefully he will respect his new employer a bit better.

    There probably is a case to present to the WRC but it's a zero-win game. I hope he takes this episode as a life lesson to take with him for the rest of his working life. In the service industry integrity is everything.

    Seriously, you should not have been helping him look for ways around his punishment. He literally got what he deserved after being caught stealing. As you say, integrity is everything. So far, he has none and you were helping him blame others for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭tomhammer..


    Probably see how he got that cavalier attitude



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,976 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Alright, ease off. He was stupid but its very much at the low end, he'll learn his lesson.



  • Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭Ted222


    He undercharged a couple of mates for pints. He shouldn’t have done it and he ultimately paid a heavy price.

    But a bit of perspective. it wasn’t exactly a heist.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,972 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I know what he did. What he did was not being "cavalier with the rules". Similarly, the heavy price you mention should not be something a parent should be considering to help them get compo via the WRC from



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The OP wasn’t trying to get compo from WRC.

    The OP was asking if the sacking was fair/justified. It was. They’ve taken that on board and so has their son.

    Jesus lads like I can’t understand why when they have fully admitted they were wrong it’s being nit picked.

    OP fair dues to the young lad he F’d up but he’s at least had the cop on to admit it and do better going forward. Best of luck.



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