Fired from bar-job for not charging staff full price of pints

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873368#Comment_121873368

Employers have right too, one on them being that those they employ don't steal from them.... So far it seems they have not made a criminal complaint. But you if decide to go down this road, you would be very well advised to get good legal advice, because it many go in a very different direction to what you expect.

CramCycle

Tell him to let it go, hopefully get a reference from one of his friends in the bar. If he was in anyway decent, someone will put their name down for a phone call. If he gets asked why he left, he has loads of excuses. Easiest is that it is his final year in college, and he wanted to focus on exams. He can then write off the reference as his line manager has actually left since he was there. Unless he plans on being a barman after college, references for his next job afterwards will be probably academic in nature so doesn't need the bar there either.

Might win a case in the WRC, say it was established practice for staff, etc, etc but at his age, he will get nothing out of it except something a simple google search will show up and put off future employers.

Plenty of places looking for waiters/serving staff if he is looking for short term work.

I also suspect your son isn't giving you the full story, particularly if he has had a few verbal warnings already. Had a parent come in to me before, they were surprised to learn that their kid had more sick days than working days, routinely didn't show up and was not reliable.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873741#Comment_121873741

There is no legal requirement to give anything.

In this case, an honest reference might say

"Mr X was employed by us as bar- tender from DATE until DATE when he was dismissed for theft."

That would be totally legal to give, because it is just a statement of the facts.

laketreeroger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874466#Comment_121874466

Should be a legal requirement to give dates of employment. Yeah that case they could, they wouldn’t bother tho.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874439#Comment_121874439

I think is is likely it.

Worked in pubs years and there was always drinking moving in random directions. Management know and usually tolerate the “wastage”. Charging for a half actually covers the cost of the raw materials.

They wanted him gone.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874480#Comment_121874480

Agree, it should be. Talk to your TD if you feel strongly about it.

However right not, it's not required.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873961#Comment_121873961

That is absolutely false. You certainly can be sacked on the spot for gross misconduct in any job.

Wanderer2010

So many people here proclaiming one mistake in the industry and you are finished forever. Yes, Ireland is small, yes word can travel but if it were the case that anyone who was fired from the hospitality industry would not work again, the industry would totally collapse.

How do all the people who were fired from a job in Ireland get another job? Reading these comments you would swear the country was filled with people confined to their rooms, never entering society again because of one mistake!

There are other bars in towns up and down the road, you could ask a buddy to pretend he was your boss to get over the reference thing. You can leave it off your CV altogether and claim you went travelling for a few weeks. Ask friends and family for contacts and see who needs some help, even if it's seasonal. I wouldn't recommend going down the road of WRC for this. See it as a life lesson for your son to take on the chin. But take no notice of all these doom sayers in the thread who insist that every single person in the bar and hotel trade all know each other. Its not true. Ireland may be small but we still number a few million so it's not that small.

Strumms

He risked his job to save a couple of other lads about €3.00 each ?

lesson learned,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875283#Comment_121875283

Not really what people are suggesting and certainly not myself anyway.

I think if you read again you will see people are advising that taking a case to WRC or making any kind of big deal about being sacked when they STOLE from the business is utterly stupid.

You’d have to be soft in the head to not realise that Bar Owner A is very likely good friends with Bar and Hotel owner B and C and they’re good friends with restaurant owner D and gastro Pub owner E etc etc.

Go ahead make a big deal about it and I promise you as sure as the sky is blue that fella is finished in his local area for hospitality jobs. Barmen and etc that get a rep for thieving don’t get jobs.

Like I’ve got the sack from Kitchens and it’s never affected me much. I’m not inclined to get a job in that hotel again or any partner hotels but I don’t care.

I deserved it as well. Told the bar manager “I don’t speak English, fcuk off” because she lectured me on “manners” in a busy service.

What I didn’t do was go crying to the WRC. If I had done that I’d be working in a different industry atm.

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875210#Comment_121875210

It’s not absolutely false. Gross misconduct still has to be proven, not assumed. This requires an investigation, however cursory.

Admittedly, the case in question is open-and-shut and no big investigation is required but an employee is entitled to due process.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875464#Comment_121875464

What are grounds for instant dismissal?

Gross misconduct can lead to instant or immediate dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include:

• Assault
• Drunkenness
• Stealing
• Bullying
• A serious breach of your employer's policies and practices

From Citizen's Information

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874102#Comment_121874102

You absolutely can be sacked on the spot. I did it to a staff member caught stealing from another staff members bag. She was dismissed on the spot and paid up to that hour and not a cent more. I double checked afterwards with the company's solicitor and was told it was one of the reasons you can do an instant dismissal (assuming the theft was proved)

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875512#Comment_121875512

Yeah but it still needs to be capable of being defended subsequently and that requires an investigation.

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875570#Comment_121875570

Yes. And proof of the theft required a process

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875210#Comment_121875210

Thats fair enough, its exceptional though and this wouldnt be an exceptional case of it.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875586#Comment_121875586

Check the till and check the camera if available. What more investigation do you need.

I've never sacked someone for giving out cheap drinks to staff because it was always some kid who didn't understand that only me (the manager) could do that.

I have sacked for theft and other gross misconduct though and it was always the same. They always admitted once challenged and just walked.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875600#Comment_121875600

caught red-handed. Process took 5 seconds.

Option 1 - you are sacked on the spot

Option 2 - we'll call the gardai and have you arrested and charged with theft. (Staff member who was victim did not want that.)

That a fair a process as a thief deserves.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875773#Comment_121875773

So no due process then? You are wrong .100% wrong.

Ah here lads it’s not a criminal justice matter there’s no “innocent until proven guilty”

if you get caught stealing you can and will be sacked on the spot.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874480#Comment_121874480

It could get a lot worse than that. He stole from them and some people do take exception to that, so they might say: sorry we are unable to discuss Mr. X because there is an going legal case due to a disciplinary issue....

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875600#Comment_121875600

The actual process when someone steals something from you is that you call the Garda at the time or make a complaint later at the station, who then investigate it. And that might still happen as part of the employer's attempts to get their house in order in defence of a claim by the OPs son. Labour law does not trump criminal law.

Gusser09

The wrc will first and foremost ensure that processes for dismissal were followed correctly. Sacking someone on the spot doesnt cut it.

Secondly they wilo want to ensure that the action taken is proportionate. Which in this case it is.

bucketybuck

Of course you can sack somebody on the spot and it is inane to claim otherwise. Stop pretending "process" is something more than it is.

I once sacked somebody because he punched a co-worker, I was standing there, I saw it happen, I sacked him immediately, and I'm going to laugh long and loud at anybody that tries to say I wasn't allowed to.

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875981#Comment_121875981

Nobody’s suggesting that. Like the OP’s case, it’s pretty open and shut.

But there’s a process to follow regardless to protect the employer. Everything should be documented with confirmation of any witnesses etc. There’s nothing to stop a disgruntled employee from going to the WRC with a pack of lies and unless an employer has documented evidence of having gone through proper procedure etc, they’re exposed.

Ted222

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875890#Comment_121875890

Theft isn’t the only form of gross misconduct for which a person can be instantly dismissed. Other forms can be more difficult to substantiate and it’s in a employer’s own interest to ensure they’ve acted appropriately and reasonably in the circumstances.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121875570#Comment_121875570

How was that proved ?

Dismissed on the spot and proved don't equate

I actually can’t (well it’s boards so I can) believe there’s an argument whether or not you can sack someone for stealing.

I mean it’s absolutely unreal.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121876079#Comment_121876079

She was seen, it was in her pocket and CCTV also showed her taking it from the bag.