Fired from bar-job for not charging staff full price of pints

Capt. Autumn

My son has worked for the last couple of years in a very successful pub/restaurant in Leinster as a bar man and, at times, waiter staff, when required. He was fired last night for pulling two pints for two of the staff finishing their shift and charging them for glasses only.

The manager spoke to the two lads who were consuming the drinks and asked the duty manager to check the till to see if they were charged in full. When it was discovered on the system that there was an under-charge, the bar manager instructed the duty manager to sack my son on the spot. He has already had a couple of verbal warnings for minor misdemeanors, on one occasion when making a cocktail during a busy shift he failed to measure one of the shorts and filled by eye. Verbal warning.

I am in no way just here to defend my son and understand that some behaviours warrant an immediate firing but this seems overly excessive. He has been a dependable employee, punctual, professiona,l and dressed smartly at all times. He is in his final year of college and this is going to cause him major financial headaches. To add insult to injury my son heard through the grapevine that this establishment would not be furnishing him with a reference. As this was his first job, this puts him at a majordisadvantagee looking for new employment

My question, particularly to those in the bar trade is this. Was the firing fair or excessive? Does my son have grounds for appeal and what are the chances he would be successful? Thanks for listening

MrMusician18

Summary firing is almost always an unfair dismissal, so there may be a case to be taken to the WRC.

Capt. Autumn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873353#Comment_121873353

Yes, that's what I'm thinking too.

HildaOgdenx

Mod - Moved to Work & Jobs.

Local charter now applies.

I’d say by the sounds of things OP he just ran out of chances tbh.

Verbal warnings for things like eyeing measures amounts to taking the piss as far as general and duty managers are concerned. They have to keep margins low to keep a good % in the budget or the owners are down their necks.

Shorting pints for staff is black and white theft and by the sounds of it your son is just a bar person/front of house, so basically junior staff. It was a pretty stupid thing to do without asking the managers. From their POV they just can’t trust him now because who else is he doing it for? Maybe no one but how can they know? As I said if he’s had a few warnings they’re not going to take kindly to other infractions even if it’s not major in the grand scheme.

Not necessarily offering any opinion on whether he should have been sacked or not as really that’s not my place I have no idea what sort of job they did otherwise and what the warnings were for and how serious this place handles the problems they had etc. just what my experience of managers in hospitality they absolutely hate any kind of stealing from the company however big or small.

I worked in a place where a chef got fired for eating too much. Decided he was costing more money than he was worth and to be fair he was either on purpose or by sheer incompetence burning or otherwise ruining a load of food and then eating it while working. Some places just don’t tolerate it I’m afraid.

Capt. Autumn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873365#Comment_121873365

Thanks for your input. Yeah, my son can be a bit of a maverick when it comes to rules, so he may have run out of road. All the same there are employment rights and I'm not sure proper procedure was followed by his employers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873368#Comment_121873368

Depends on his contract and how long he worked there AND if he passed probation. If not he can be sacked on the spot for any or indeed no reason.

Regardless stealing is considered gross misconduct which is almost always in the contract as being punishable by on the spot dismissal.

Regardless you have to consider the irony at least of taking a case to the WRC because you were sacked for knowingly shorting the business. Not to mention the prospects for any positive outcome for your son.

Look I’ll tell you this hospitality businesses don’t operate in a vacuum. Everyone knows everyone and I promise you if your son wants anymore work in the industry rightly or wrongly making a big deal out of this when he is absolutely in the wrong is a stupid move to be blunt. Im not insulting you in saying that by the way but it would be absolutely crazy to do so.

just to be absolutely clear I am not trying to sound rude but your son is 100% in the wrong here and I think you should make him understand how he is rather than attempt to vindicate him as it does not impart a positive message.

If you encourage him to feel wronged in this situation you are basically telling him it’s not fair you got sacked for breaking the rules repeatedly it’s definitely not your fault.

Hes 18. An adult and should be treated like a big boy. He evidently displayed disrespect for his employers and got sacked. If I were him I’d be reflecting on my behaviour and addressing it going forward not looking for a gotcha against the place.

Look I get you’re both upset but he should take it as a lesson for future jobs not stress about the process. You may well have a case to argue here but I think it’s one I wouldn’t seek to pursue personally were I in your position.

Capt. Autumn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873402#Comment_121873402

Thanks for the advise. Tough love and all. I get what you are saying and it may be a case of lick your wounds and learn from the mistakes made. I get what you said about the incestuous nature of the business and perhaps it's best for him to move on.

tomhammer..

It's a clear case of theft at some level

Why would he get a reference

Lewis_Benson

Sounds like a life lesson learned tbf

Clo-Clo

you could say he was stealing from the company. Don’t think he has much come back on that

Also if it was his final warning he has no chance. I wouldn’t be looking for a reference

laketreeroger

Just on the reference front I thought an employer is obliged to give at least a dates of employment reference. I know some companies won’t give an actual reference and they will just give X worked here from This date to that. Although I appreciate that’s probably not the norm in the hospitality industry and might look a bit odd. Although it might be better than nothing. But yeah I wouldn’t be going to the WRC over a cut and dry theft case.

Topgear on Dave

I saw instant dismissals a few times way back when I worked in bars as a young fella, you wouldn't believe the number of people taken on that think they can throw out a few cheap or free drinks to their mates or even quietly lift a 20 or a 50 from the till and they think no one will notice.

It's more common than you'd believe.

Honestly I'd move on and call it a lesson learned.

Deagol

I'd think about looking at this another way. Don't teach your son that when he does something dumb like ignoring the rules, that there is some way to blame others for his mistake.

There's enough people in the world who believe no matter what they do wrong, it's always someone else's fault.

laketreeroger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873744#Comment_121873744

I’d say nobody does notice 99% of the time alright.

donegal_man

Unfortunately for your son I'd say he was already on the manager's radar having had previous warnings and this was just the excuse needed to get rid of him.

Undercharging has always been seen as a reason for instant dismissal in the licensed trade.

I'd also think he can forget about getting another job in a bar as everyone knows everyone else and any hint of dishonesty will scupper him.

JVince

Frankly you should tell your son that he deserved it and stop Molly coddling him.

He was caught on a fraud. He did it deliberately. He absolutely should have been dismissed on the spot.

Running to mammy like a snowflake will not solve the problem he has.

Augme

If your son is past his probation then if took a case he would 100% win it. You can't fire people on the spot, no matter what they do. It's a breach of fair procedure and the WRC will always hammer companies who breach this fair procedure.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873741#Comment_121873741

You can't give a bad reference and companies have been sued for giving good references to incompetent employees. So most companies these days only give worked from X to Y date written references. If the potential new employer calls for a verbal reference they still can't give a bad reference, but there is nothing wrong with answering the question would you hire them again with a No.

laketreeroger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873967#Comment_121873967

Yeah I know but are you obliged to give a dates of employment reference? You should be in my opinion. It’s just factual. The new place can be wary of it if they want. I think with the increasing number of these non descript references it barely matters anymore. Back in the day did it actually help you get a job? Now it’s always way after the fact, just box ticking.

Repo101

A lot of tough love advice in here but very little advice around your son's rights. They can't sack him on the spot, he's entitled to due process and that clearly didn't occur. Your son would have a case but would it be worth it? I doubt it.

gk5000

It's worth checking what the normal custom in that place was.

IMHO, if your son was following usual and acceped practice then he has a case, and should not be singled out - otherwise doubtful

Also, what written or oral instruction was given prior regarding conduct, theft, but also staff fringe benefits or accomodations.

Was it clear prior that this was prohibited?

Bear in mind each side pays own costs, win or lose, in WRC.

I think it's worth figuring out what his rights are irrespective, and if he has a case - and then go back to the bar with that first.

All cases can be found on the WRC website.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873741#Comment_121873741

Oh you can give a reference to say they worked from X to Y.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058339870/fired-from-bar-job-for-not-charging-staff-full-price-of-pints

Maybe he should of thought about the issues it might cause him before he had the minor misdemeanors and throwing out pints without getting people to pay correctly

Do you not think stealing from the pub is behaviour that would warrant and immediate firing?

Sorry if this sounds harsh but he doesn't really sound like a dependable employee at all, especially when you consider how hard some companies get to hire staff at the moment and I expect the post is glossing over his previous record.

Also I wouldn't believe "the grapevine". The company will provide a reference as they have to but ireland is small, everyone knows each other in most business's so I think he should really look for a change of career, if he wants to work in a bar when he is finished college moving to another town/village will give him a clean slate.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873967#Comment_121873967

You can't give a bad reference

This isn't true at all. There is no law against giving a bad reference. The risk associated with giving a bad reference is the potential of being sued for defamation. However, if you can prove the statement that you gave is true, you can defend yourself against a defamation suit. The important thing to realise is that the burden of proof is on the person who gave the statement - they must prove that the statement is true, the plantiff does not have to prove the statement is false.

In practice, companies don't give bad references because they are risk-averse. They don't want to have to defend themselves against a defamation case, even if they can

Gusser09

Totally incorrect to state that anyone can be sacked on the spot in ireland regardless of contract type or probation. It just cant happen. There 100% has to be due process. There is a case here for the WRC but OP maybe your son should just learn his lesson and get on with life. A WRC will be publicised and wont make him attractive to employers.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/dismissal/fair-grounds-for-dismissal/#6a739c

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874093#Comment_121874093

It doesn't have to be a bad reference. A reference that is anything less than glowing is a red flag. Easy to write a reference that is essentially useless.

Degag

From someone in the trade for a number of years, it sounds quite harsh. Perhaps though there were quite a number of "misdemeanours" though?

The warning for not measuring a spirit in a cocktail seems petty. Barmen need to adapt when it's busy vs quiet and many can't. Personally i'd see this as a fairly positive trait, only obviously if he has a good eye. Of course cocktails should be fairly exact.

He shouldn't be undercharging staff. I'm surprised by the way you speak of the establishment though that they allow staff to drink there.

My advice would be for him to move on. The hospitality trade are crying out for staff and the fact that he has experience is a big thing. Wouldn't worry about a lack of reference.

I think he's obviously made mistakes but they don't seem like a very nice place to work for either.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121874120#Comment_121874120

Oh I know. I was just addressing the myth that a bad reference can't be given

Iodine1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873353#Comment_121873353

Indeed, and when he has spent the small win (short term employee, etc), his case will be forever on the web following him around. Dismissed as having admitted to being an undependable dishonest staff member really won't look good. He was warned about measuring out the merchandise, yet he felt he could dispense it any way he liked. Of course they let him go.