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Handrails on stairs necessary?

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    #152
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121676959#Comment_121676959

    It does meet Irish regs. Why are you alleging it doesn't, it has been explained enough times now. There is no requirement in the regs for a 'rail' in this instance. The guarding can serve as the rail.

    The programme doesn't claim that everything shown is either finished or regs compliant. Simple enough point. Not sure what your problem is with that.

    Many many houses are 'finished' by the contractor with some stuff left to be done by the client or there may be a hold up on a component. Again, there is nothing controversial in stating that. If there is, point it out.



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    #153
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121676964#Comment_121676964

    That is your personal interpretation of the regs.

    Your solution doesn't provide a handrail that can be gripped. None.



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    #154
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677040#Comment_121677040

    The top of the guarding needs to be able to be gripped easily. There is no specification for a separate handrail if guarding is used in the regs.



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    #155
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677074#Comment_121677074

    That is your personal interpretation of the regs.

    The handrail needs to be "readily gripped by the hand" and "safely used". A cheap ass block of plywood meets neither requirement.



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    #156
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677091#Comment_121677091

    That is your opinion.

    'The guarding may form the handrail...'

    Read it and weep, the guarding here forms the handrail = compliance.

    Not compliant with your taste and budget, but so what?

    Now if you wish to show that the staircase in Cashel is more dangerous than a traditional iteration, then you need to show data on that. You 'feel it in your water' or anecdote or excessive worrying or the survival rate of stair users in the UK, will not suffice as data.



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    #157
    Francis McM
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677130#Comment_121677130

    Look up the definition of a handrail and look at the regs. The UK regs are very similar to the Irish regs , and they show a cross section of the handrail, minimum and maximum dimensions, ( 40-45mm diameter if it was round section), the minimum rounding if it was to be oval, etc. See page 26. The sharpness and shape of the cheap plywood on the Cashel house is not sufficient, otherwise you would have seen that type of construction elsewhere ie without a hand rail fitted. Fit a hand-rail and then it will be ok, as long as it is the correct dimensions, fitted at the correct height etc.



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    #158
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677298#Comment_121677298

    Why are you insisting on talking about UK regs.

    This is Ireland, the issue is about Irish regs.

    ' A handrail may form the top of the guarding if

    the height is suitable (refer to Diagram 6)

    The handrail should be so constructed and

    fitted as to be capable of being readily

    gripped by hand and safely used.

    If the handrail formed by the guarding here is not capable of being safely used, you need the data to support that theory.

    The 'feeling in your water that granny may fall' is not data as explained before.



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    #159
    Francis McM
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677341#Comment_121677341

    You accept it fails UK regs ( by a long shot) and you are trying to argue it passes Irish regs because the Irish regs are relatively vague compared to the UK regs, which show sections of acceptable handrail etc. In fairness, most Irish stair regs are like the UK ones, but you are trying to find a loophole when it comes to the hand-rails here.

    Because of the lack of rounding on the edges of the top of the plywood, and the lack of grip underneath the top edge ( nothing for your fingertips or thumb to wrap around) i.e the shape, you cannot argue the top of the sheets of plywood is a "handrail" .

    To make up for this oversight, what would you think of RTE showing a programme some time from the CRC hospital and interviewing someone from there who fell down a stairs, and asking them what they think of safety design on stairs etc, if they think handrails are necessary, if they should be of a minimum design etc? And asking them if a building show-cased on prime time tv as designed and built by "experts" should meet safety requirements / regs ?



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    #160
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677405#Comment_121677405

    I couldn't care less about UK regs because this is Ireland governed by Irish regs.

    The stairs comply with Irish regs. Fact.

    Now if you have anything new to offer on Irish regs, get back to me. Otherwise the OP has been answered, the stairs comply.

    Have a good weekend.



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    #161
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121677130#Comment_121677130

    That is your opinion.

    The guarding may form the handrail, provided that it can be "readily gripped by the hand" and "safely used". 

    Read it and weep. The guarding must be readily gripped and safely used, which a lump of plywood is not.

    Now if you wish to show that the staircase in Cashel is not dangerous, then you need to show data on that. You 'feel it in your water' or anecdote about your granny or total lack of concern about about older people, parents carrying children, people with sight loss and hearing loss, will not suffice as data.



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    #162
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678285#Comment_121678285

    Sorry, you too are going round in circles.

    It is your opinion that it cannot be gripped or be safely used.

    You have presented nothing but your opinion that a ‘guarding forming a handrail’ is in contravention.

    There are no specifications in the regs for the material, width or grip ability of the guarding that forms the handrail.

    So the onus is on you to prove these things a. Cannot be gripped, b. Safely used or c. The material used renders it unsafe.

    As said, that requires data not opinion.

    If you don’t have the data you too will just be ignored by me, this is just silly repetitive stuff now



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    #163
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678390#Comment_121678390

    Actually, it's not down to me. It's down to the architect to confirm that it DOES comply with regulations, which it doesn't.

    You have presented nothing but your opinion that a lump of plywood is actually a handrail. There are no specifications, but there are requirements that it can be "readily gripped by the hand" and "safely used". Which of lump of plywood can't.

    I'm not sure what level of entitlement makes you think that you have the gospel truth on these things, and everyone else has to prove you wrong. That's not how it works.

    And maybe take a couple of hours this weekend to give your granny a decent handrail. Don't wait for her to crack her hip because you can't be arsed.



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    #164
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678841#Comment_121678841

    Still nothing but your opinion.

    The only people who have issue with what Bannon did are those who have to twist the regs to their will and add a dollop of UK regs for good measure and some emotional heart strings.



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    #165
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678965#Comment_121678965

    Still nothing but your opinion.



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    #166
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121678992#Comment_121678992

    A guarding may form the handrail.

    Dum de dum de dum.



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    #167
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679049#Comment_121679049

    Only if it can be readily gripped by the hand" and "safely used". Which this of lump of plywood can't.

    Ah doo doo doo. Ah dah dah dah.



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    #168
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679747#Comment_121679747

    You need new material Andrew.

    Data not opinion.



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    #169
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,106 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121673911#Comment_121673911

    A tread width is a tread width. It has a physical requirement. Whether you fit a handrail or not does not change those requirement. Pretty simple.

    If you think that’s statement against part M, I’m sorry but you’re only demonstrating you’re lack of understanding. I get where your thinking comes from, but as a professional your mistaken.



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    #170
    Francis McM
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679963#Comment_121679963

    Another professional would think the stairs on the house in Cashel is dangerous, as it does not have a handrail.( given the definition of a handrail ). It is clear it would not meet UK regulations. See page 26 of their regs, the measurements etc. I wonder would the RIAI (  the Regulatory and Support body for Architects in Ireland ) have an opinion on the very unusual stairs without the handrail in Cashel - if, in their opinion,it is dangerous or complies with Irish regs?

    Given 280 people a year have died from falls in Ireland ( statistic from an Irish state body), should not our new buildings (especially taxpayer assisted ones) be designed and made to be as safe as possible (or at least as good as UK houses have to be), especially if they are to be held up as an example of good design on our Irish prime time TV?



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    #171
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think at this stage those who think Bannon designed a dangerous non compliant stairs need to report him to the relevant authorities. See what happens.

    Just circling here now



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    #172
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,314 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680807#Comment_121680807

    If not for the Israel-Palestine conflict, The Hague would surely be pulling in Dermot Bannon for his war crimes.



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    #173
    Francis McM
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680807#Comment_121680807

    Not a matter of "reporting" somebody, more a matter of seeing if those very unusual stairs, without a handrail like you see in probably 99.9% of other houses, meet Irish regs and / or good design practice.

    I know you said " The programme never said that all that it shows is Reg compliant." so clarification would be nice. Especially when 280 people a year have been killed in falls in Ireland, with many more seriously injured. And when the programme is show-cased as an example of good design / build on prime time TV.



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    #174
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680854#Comment_121680854

    Go ask the relevant authorities then and get back to us.

    Bannon as architect signed off on it, he's big and ugly enough to validate his decisions.



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    #175
    Francis McM
    Registered Users Posts: 2,849 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681099#Comment_121681099

    How do you know he signed off on the completed job? Anyway, he is not infallible. We even saw it reported in recent weeks how his planned extension on Room To Improve was built before planning permission was received.



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    #176
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681154#Comment_121681154

    Never ever claimed he was infallible.

    The architect or some professional will sign off a house for the mortgage company to issue final payments.

    Find out who done that, and then make a complaint, there is quite a robust proceedure if a building is deemed not to be compliant.

    Building Regulation Enforcement – McMahon Legal (Solicitors) (mcmahonsolicitors.ie)


    Because we are done here. Good luck.



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    #177
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,141 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I have no properly informed knowldege about hand rails in Irish house builds, but I do know as an aul wan who is not 100% reliable for climbing stairs, if I grabbed a proper (ie shaped) hand rail if I were unsteady I would usually save myself, if I grabbed the edge of a sheet of ply I would most likely keep falling and break my wrist as my hand twisted off the ply. I would not live in a house without proper handrails, and I never tackle stairs these days with both hands occupied, my 'rail' hand is always ready to grab.

    All this also applies to younger people who for whatever reason do not have the balance to cope with stairs with no handrails.

    And it doesn't seem very long ago that I could sprint up and down stairs carrying a load of stuff in both hands without a second thought. Tempus fugit.

    Which has little to do with the Room to Improve topic but may persuade a youthful architect that some things are more important than style.



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    #178
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679805#Comment_121679805

    Right back atcha bro, data not opinion from you please?



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    #179
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121679963#Comment_121679963

    Sorry, but the laws of physics disagree with you.

    If you have a staircase with no handrails, and you then fit handrails at the sides of that staircase, the handrails reduce the available width for people to pass through. Unless you have some kind of magical Star Trek handrails that don't take physical space, handrails reduce the width.



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    #180
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,532 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121680807#Comment_121680807

    There is no effective reporting / enforcement process for building control issues.



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    #181
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,112 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121681278#Comment_121681278

    Not gonna be solved here Andrew.



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