Handrails on stairs necessary?

Francis McM

Was watching Room to Improve last weekend (the house in Cashel) and there was not a handrail on the the stairs - just the raw edge of the plywood. Can anyone here tell me if that complies with building regs please? According to the technical Guidance Document a handrail is required, but someone said it is the actual regs that are important?

Also the 3 steps down to the kitchen/dining/living area : no handrail visible there, certainly on the side of the wall visible to the camera. Are handrails necessary on such steps: I can see from UK building regs there are necessary in such a case there, but I am wondering about our regs?

I liked some things about the house but not so sure about the handrail / steps, would it even meet building regs?

ec18

you really need to get something more positive, then this axe you have to grind all week about Room to improve

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058332148/handrails-on-stairs-necessary

Whatever answer you get then you have to ask was the house certified and signed off at the time of filming. In other words, you have a way to go and much to prove before you get to 'gotcha Dermot'.

Kalimah

That was the first thing I noticed, along with the steps down to the living area. It seems to be a feature of all Dermot Bannon's builds. All I can see is toddlers and older people having awful falls down those steps. As far as I know the regs do require handrails. Twenty odd years ago I had a fall on a stairs at home and except for a handrail I would have been badly injured. As it was I strained ligaments in my knee and wrenched my arm. I wpn't go down any stairs now without holding a handrail.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638375#Comment_121638375

I thought it was dangerous too, by at least not having a handrail on the wall beside those steps down: unfortunately I could forsee a visitor or elderly person visiting the house (or returning from the toilet) and their eye being caught out the window at the view up to the Castle on the hill, and not looking where they were stepping. I know a few people to have had a fall over the years (which could have been prevented) and serious enough injury, I wonder about the regs on handrails? Anyone have a link to the building regs as opposed to the Government technical Guidance Document (which is easily available online).

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058332148/handrails-on-stairs-necessary

The stairs require a handrail.

A handrail can be the top of the (plywood) guarding. The TGD doesn’t define the dimensions of a handrail. You’d have a hard time proving the top of the plywood couldn’t be gripped as a handrail.

The steps at the level change don’t required guarding. 2 steps may not need a handrail, 3 is borderline.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638440#Comment_121638440

The building regs are not specific on requirements like that. The TGD, while not specifically legal requirements, are the closest to the reference you want.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121646762#Comment_121646762

I think also that the programme doesn't claim to be presenting fully finished and certified home. Often they are not finished and are dressed like a stage for the cameras. Furniture hired in etc,

I think it is quite possible if not likely that the stairs was waiting for something to top the unfinished plywood as the chance of splinters would be quite high.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638440#Comment_121638440

The actual regs are usually in the intro or foreword of the TGD document, usually just a few very broad principles.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638362#Comment_121638362

Inspection rates of private homes by building control to ensure compliance with building regs was as low as 0% in some counties in the last research I saw, which goes back more than ten years now. So it may well have never been certified and signed off as compliant with building regs.

_Kaiser_

Personally speaking I think the far bigger issue is the ridiculous amount of property porn on TV in this country when many people are struggling to keep the roof they have, or to be able to move out of their parents house.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651084#Comment_121651084

At least RTE they do the Cheaper Irish Homes (?) programme quite well. But you are right, the print media with others gleefully drove on the excesses that led to the crash.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651069#Comment_121651069

Building control do not sign off for compliance in Ireland. So the lack of an inspection does not imply a lack of certification/compliance.

If certification was required it would typically be provided by a suitable professional involved - I won’t try to name them.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121656824#Comment_121656824

To many it seems that the Irish Building Control Regulations which just required that owners, builders, and registered construction professionals were responsible that the works or building concerned have been designed and constructed in compliance with Building Regulations has meant everyone but nobody was responsible. Self-certification. Mica, Pyrite, Priory hall did not happen by accident.

Even when it comes to the handrail on those three steps down to the sunken dining/living area on Room to Improve, it would not meet UK building regulations, but here, ah sure it'll do.  Lets make an example of it and show it to the nation on a Sunday night! Any engineer / suitable professional can again sometime certify the house and sign off afaik. 'Tis grand.

Hope nobody falls down either stairs in the house, neither of which has a proper handrail.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658083#Comment_121658083

There's a lot wrong with that post. As in a gross misunderstanding on certification and liability.

To many it seems that the Irish Building Control Regulations which just required that owners, builders, and registered construction professionals were responsible that the works or building concerned have been designed and constructed in compliance with Building Regulations has meant everyone but nobody was responsible.

I find that confusing, and not because it is a run-on sentence. Who else are you suggesting should be liable? Third parties not involved with the design and construction? That makes little sense. Those parties you list are exactly who should be responsible - for their relevant aspects. I've no idea how you've concluded that everyone being responsible means that nobody is. That's not how it works in any industry or situation.

Mica, Pyrite, Priory hall did not happen by accident.

The links of Mica and Pyrite were not certification issues. You're implying that the builders, engineers etc were aware of the concrete defects and turned a blind eye. Quite the accusation, but untrue. We don't need to rehash Pyrite here it it was a recent topic in another thread (link).

Priory Hall a different matter. Shoddy work, corners cut. But unfair to say that nobody was responsible, there was clear responsibility imo. But shockingly an former IRA gunman was not a upstanding business man, and bailed on that liability.

Even when it comes to the handrail on those three steps down to the sunken dining/living area on Room to Improve, it would not meet UK building regulations, but here, ah sure it'll do.

I'm not involved with the UK regs specifically. But last I checked the UK and Irish stair regs were identical in may requirements . As they are based on the same source. Seems like you are suggesting the Irish regs are lax on the steps down to the living area, but it does not comply with UK regs. I'm not convinced that's correct.

What extra requirement does the UK have there?

Lets make an example of it and show it to the nation on a Sunday night! Any engineer / suitable professional can again sometime certify the house and sign off afaik. 'Tis grand.

You seem to be misinformed about what certification means. That afaik is incorrect. Certification does not indemnify anyones against liability.

IF a stairs is non-compliant. And a suitable professional signs it off. It does not become a compliant stairs. Compliance is unchanged. If somebody were to fall down the stair and hurt themselves. The owner would be liable. And the professional who certified it, would also be liable.

But that IF, is a big IF. The requirements for compliance in a private residence is very different to a public building. As I said above, its not clear cut whether those steps are non compliant. As was pointed out above, guidance is not the same as regulation.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659663#Comment_121659663

There is a lot wrong about your post. You say " the UK and Irish stair regs were identical in may requirements . As they are based on the same source. Seems like you are suggesting the Irish regs are lax on the steps down to the living area, but it does not comply with UK regs. I'm not convinced that's correct"

In the UK, three steps or more will require a handrail. No ifs, no buts. I know someone who built a house in the UK and he had visits to the site / property from government building control inspectors, which he was told were mandatory and to ensure that building regulations have been met.  No way would anyone get away not putting handrails on stairs there. Here there does not seem to be the same building control / building inspectors.

I mentioned the likes of Mica, Pyrite, Priory hall only because they may at least party have happenedd as a result of a "ah sure it'll do" attitude from somebody, and possibly incompetence or lack or regulation had a part to play there too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638375#Comment_121638375

I hope nobody falls down those steps. Maybe the programme makers or builders get handrails fitted to the houses afterwards, lets hope so, but as thy sip champagne at the end you get the impression the builders (and design team) have finished their work.

FrancieBrady

Safe to conclude that no regs/guidelines/rules were broken in the build of this house.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651084#Comment_121651084

Yes, only reality programmes which highlight the woes of society should be made, wall to wall Primetime/Tonight.

Just a thought, the vast majority of viewers may not be struggling to keep a roof over their head, and may just want to be entertained by viewing what others do with their homes. I don’t watch it myself, but neither do I want to wallow in misery.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663922#Comment_121663922

If that is the case, the stairs regs/guidelines/rules are more lax than in UK, because it would not be allowed in the UK.

The_Erection_of_Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121652635#Comment_121652635

I disagree.

The show is called "cheap Irish homes" but then you have yer wan coming on saying "the average price in this area is from 170k to 190k" and then she finds houses in this budget...You don't need to be a genius to find average priced houses in a place.

A lower price does mean something is cheap.

Cheap relates to good value. Value is what you get. Price is what you pay.

4 walls in a field in Tulsk might be advertised at 100k. That's not cheap.

A 3 bed semi D in Ranelagh for 280k. That is cheap.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663957#Comment_121663957

Nothing to do with the point made.

If you wish to compare to the UK maybe open another thread?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664042#Comment_121664042

It has everything to do with the topic "are handrails in steps necessary". They are compulsory on 3 steps in the UK. And building control ensure they are fitted there. I think most people in this country would think that handrails should be on steps and stairs, and it would be safer. You might not think they are necessary but Mellor said "the UK and Irish stair regs were identical in may requirements".

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664228#Comment_121664228

Here was the point made:

Safe to conclude that no regs/guidelines/rules were broken in the build of this house.

UK, US, Polish, New Guinea regs/guidelines/rules are not relevant to that point, unless you wish to deflect to something else.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664345#Comment_121664345

Actually in other western countries there are regulations for handrails in residential properties too. For example, in the USA, there are the OSHA regulations.

https://www.thehortongroup.com/resources/complying-with-stair-handrail-requirements/

Even on 3 steps, they are required.

Someone else wrote (post no. 4) "That was the first thing I noticed, along with the steps down to the living area. It seems to be a feature of all Dermot Bannon's builds. All I can see is toddlers and older people having awful falls down those steps. As far as I know the regs do require handrails. Twenty odd years ago I had a fall on a stairs at home and except for a handrail I would have been badly injured. As it was I strained ligaments in my knee and wrenched my arm. I wpn't go down any stairs now without holding a handrail."

Most of the houses in Ireland have handrails, why not always on Room to Improve if it is supposed to be an example of good design and build?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664423#Comment_121664423

It was an adequate handrail within the guidelines/regs/rules. i.e. the point made.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664423#Comment_121664423

On three steps, they are not required. As per TGD Part K Sub-Section 1.1 Stairways and Ladders:

1.1.5 Any series of three risers or less occurring at a change of level in a floor, balcony or roof and such like, need only comply with Table 1 and par. 1.1.4. The other provisions of this sub-section do not apply in such cases. 

The requirements for handrails comes under 1.1.17 and is therefore a provision of this sub-section which does not apply where there are three risers or less. I didn't see the episode in question, but from looking at the photos on the website, there are three risers. As such handrails are not a requirement. Had there been a fourth step, handrails would be required.

As for the plywood balustrades along the stairs, the top of them could be considered a handrail provided they're within the requirements for heights and width.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664489#Comment_121664489

The Irish regs are different to the Irish TGD. That is why last week I asked does" Anyone have a link to the building regs as opposed to the Government technical Guidance Document (which is easily available online)". I could see last week that they are not required in our TGD but they are required in UK etc, and I thought it would be common sense to have a handrail anyway.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664533#Comment_121664533

From your OP

but not so sure about the handrail / steps, would it even meet building regs?

Are you now assured that all shown in the programme 'met' the building regs?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664533#Comment_121664533

As per the TGD:

The Guidance

The materials, methods of construction, standards and other specifications (including technical specifications) which are referred to in this document are those which are likely to be suitable for the purposes of the Regulations. Where works are carried out in accordance with the guidance in this document, this will, prima facie, indicate compliance with Part K of the Second Schedule to the Building Regulations. However, the adoption of an approach other than that outlined in the guidance is not precluded provided that the relevant requirements of the Regulations are complied with. Those involved in the design and construction of a building may be required by the relevant building control authority to provide such evidence as is necessary to establish that the requirements of the Building Regulations are being complied with.

Compliance with the TGD is deemed to be compliance with the Building Regulations unless a relevant building control authority requires clarification or justification regarding the design/construction. It also doesn't mean that a specialist design which doesn't appear to comply with the TGDs/Regs can't be used provided it is specially designed and all relevant parties are satisfied and will certify that their design in principle is in compliance (essentially, the spirit of the law)*.

Either way, the lack of handrail on those three steps is in compliance with the TGDs, and is therefore deemed to be in compliance with the regs, irrespective of whether it would be common sense or safer to have a handrail, or whether a Building Control Inspector in the UK wouldn't sign off on it in a completely different house.

*This can be especially true when it comes to Part B, as full compliance with the TGDs/Regs may not always be possible (especially when it comes to industrial where you may require large open spaces or pass-throughs in walls for machinery), and so a special design which for example over-compensates in some regards might alleviate or reduce the risk in other regards may be deemed acceptable (ie. fire engineered design).

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664646#Comment_121664646

Thank you for that. It is very unlikely here in Ireland "a relevant building control authority requires clarification or justification regarding the design/construction" , seeing as building control inspectors do not visit house being built / just completed.

Hopefully nobody will fall down those steps, for which a handrail would be required if it was built in UK or USA. The property would be inspected in UK, not sure how they enforce the regs in USA.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664888#Comment_121664888

According to the UK Approved Document K, a handrail is required where there are three risers or more. In Ireland, TGD K says a handrail is not required where there are three risers or less.

The difference between whether a handrail is required between the UK and Irish regs is just one riser because the UK regs count the requirement from the third step upwards, and Irish regs count the non-requirement from the third step downwards. I'm not going to go looking into the US regs because ultimately it's as irrelevant as the UK ones, the UK ones are just easier to find and read due to their similarity to the Irish ones. Regardless, the steps as constructed in RTI appears to be compliant with Irish Building Regs.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664953#Comment_121664953

Correct, and I had come to the same conclusion myself. In the UK, a handrail is required where there are three risers or more ( and this is enforced through building control inspectors etc, who visit the property.)

In Ireland, TGD K says a handrail is not required where there are three risers or less.

At least that is those 3 steps down to the dining / living area clarified: as you say, they appear to be compliant with Irish Building Regs. Thank you.

I am still not sure if the raw edge of the plywood on the stairs would comply with regs ( it is certainly not a user-friendly handrail ) but I suppose we can give it the benefit of the doubt as I suppose it could be used as a handrail ( even if you got a splinter in your hand).

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664888#Comment_121664888

What I can't understand is why you keep mentioning regulations from other countries. What are you going to post about next, Israeli building regulations?