Handrails on stairs necessary?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670280#Comment_121670280

A proper handrail on one side is no good when you have limited power in your arm on that side, or when you're using a crutch on that side, or when you're carrying laundry or a baby on that side.

It is poor practice to design stairs that are too narrow to accommodate two handrails.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670306#Comment_121670306

Well surely if you wish to second guess every possible potential accident, it is poor practice to design a house with stairs or steps at all. We should all live in level one storey dwellings.

Far as I can see, within the regs/guidelines these stairs have been designed given the limitations of the space available, to minimise accidents and if there is an accident to minimise the injury.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670280#Comment_121670280

Again though, where does it stop? Hazard tape, flashing beacons, a hydraulic platform, sign a consent form and undertake safety training before approaching the steps?

Or maybe, just maybe, we can trust that people will manage a few steps in their own home which comply with the required regulations and are deemed to be sufficient to reduce or prevent accident and injury without being so onerous that you have to undertake safety training before even stepping into the house.

I mean Christ on a cracker lads, you'd swear Dermot designed a pit of snakes and spikes under one indistinguishable floor tile trapdoor. I'm not a fan of Dermot for a variety of reasons, but as someone who works in the industry, if ye had any control over building regulations I'd become a bubble wrap salesman because I know I'd make a fortune off architects and builders.

Someone could get a splinter off the handrail. F*ck me....

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670288#Comment_121670288

So it it just an "opinion" that a proper handrail makes a stairs safer?

Would you be happy with elderly people going up and down stars on a daily basis without a proper handrail (fitted at the correct height - there are rules for that too) , in case the stumble or trip?

As I said even in the UK, where virtually all handrails are proper handrails and there are building inspectors / building control ( unlike here) to ensure same, they find that ( and I quote) : "Falls on steps and stairs are a leading cause of accidental death in the home, with at least 700 people dying as a result of falling on domestic stairs every year. Falls between levels tend to affect young children the most. Each year, they account for more than 80 deaths and more than 54,000 visits to A&E, 4,000 of which are likely to result in hospital admissions."

I do not know what the stats for falls and accidents from stairs are in this country, but I would suspect they may be in line per capita with the UK, as the vast majority of stairs here, like in the UK, have a proper handrail.

It is un-believable you do not think it wrong that a proper handrail was not fitted to the house in Cashel.

Sooner or later, people going up and down stairs are elderly, feeble, careless, unfortunate, drunk, or a combination of these, and a handrail would sometimes prevent life changing injuries or worse. Especially with "Kite Winder steps" like in Cashel: these are steps ( like in Cashel) where the width of the steps narrows going around the corner. Deadly dangerous.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670447#Comment_121670447

So it it just an "opinion" that a proper handrail makes a stairs safer?

Within the regs/guidelines it is a 'proper' handrail.

Wanting another type which is in your 'opinion' a 'proper' one is moot and irrelevant.

This architect built a house for his clients within the regs/guidelines that 'they' wanted and were happy with.

Your 'opinions' are not gonna change that.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670499#Comment_121670499

Given that there are Kite Winder steps on those stairs ( steps that narrow greatly towards the centre of the bend in the stairs), would you be happy with elderly or frail people going up and down stars on a daily basis with just the edge of the vertical plywood to grip on to, in case they stumble, trip or fall?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670562#Comment_121670562

I am not going to indulge your sensationalism. People can fall on any stairs or without a stairs.

The stairs are within the reg/guidelines. This type of stairs are common, as I said, my own are similar and don't have a 'proper' handrail. My elderly mum used them all the time and passed away uninjured in her bed in her early 90's. Incidentally, her own stairs in a 1920's house had no handrail at all, just a single flight that came down between two full height walls.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670616#Comment_121670616

I never saw in stairs in Ireland without a proper handrail, but there you go. I think it best that designers make things as safe as possible, given that in these islands falls on steps and stairs are a leading cause of accidental death in the home, and at least 700 people dying as a result of falling on domestic stairs every year.

You family may have escaped uninjured, good for them, but not everyone is as lucky. Cars now are safer than they were 50 years ago. If my family had the choice of travelling in a car with anti-lock brakes, seat belts, airbags, crumple zones etc or one without, I would prefer the safer car. But as you say, people can fall on any stairs. People can crash in any car.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671025#Comment_121671025

We have established long since that the handrail is ‘proper’ legal and compliant.

You are just flailing around now trying to impose your ‘opinion’ on what ‘proper’ is.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671130#Comment_121671130

We have already established the vertical edge of wood is not as easy to grab on to or as comfortable as the usual type of handrail you can grip your hand around. It is open to debate if it could be called a handrail at all.

To be compliant, the stairs has to have at least one hand rail. A handrail is commonly defined as "a rail fixed to posts or a wall for people to hold on to for support." or "A handrail is a long piece of metal or wood which is fixed near stairs or places where people could slip and fall"

Even if the stairs is compliant, it could be made safer. Especially as it has those awful Kite Winder steps (steps going around a corner that are wide on one side but very narrow on the other side )

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671025#Comment_121671025

Mate at this stage, you're just talking nonsense. You're now trying to insinuate that steps which are fully compliant with current building regulations are equivalent to a car without seatbelts, airbags and crumple zones. And the only reason you have to pull out these nonsensical comparisons, to keep repeating that statistic about deaths on stairs per year, and to deflect on to other issues such as the kitchen countertops, is because you have absolutely no logical argument to put forward to demonstrate that what Bannon did was incorrect or non-compliant.

Smee_Again

Francis' threads are better than the actual show at this stage.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671189#Comment_121671189

We have already established the vertical edge of wood is not as easy to grab on to or as comfortable as the usual type of handrail you can grip your hand around. It is open to debate if it could be called a handrail at all.

Where have we 'established' this? It's a perfectly adequate replacement.

A handrail that forms part of a wall is FULLY compliant and within the guidelines. No amount of waffle is going to change that.

Every staircase is dangerous. This one is compliant and as far as we know - safe as it can be.

If you want to fantasise about accidents, work away, but that is all it is. And you can do it about that low seating in the playroom too when the stairs no longer satisfies, or any number of fixtures in any house in the world.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670306#Comment_121670306

Francis Brady thinks that just that vertical edge of plywood suffices as a handrail and makes the stairs "as safe as it can be" !!!

I would'nt like to be coming down those steps ( only a few inches wide on one side, at the kite winder corner ) if I was frail or elderly or drunk or careless or rushing....and without a proper handrail to grip around.

muffler

Personally I wouldn't debate this any further as there is nothing to debate. The op has shown in a couple of threads that they carry a very large chip on their shoulders. It doesn't matter how many times it has been pointed out that the steps he referred to are compliant with building regulations in Ireland he will still deflect the confirmation and continue the rant.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670355#Comment_121670355

It wasn't the limitation of space available. It was the allocation of space to other features, which were given priority over making the stairs safe.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670407#Comment_121670407

It stops with good universal design, designing facilities that work for everyone, not just facilities that work for Dermot.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121673626#Comment_121673626

Oh ffs.

Done with the nonsense.

The stairs were within the regs/guidelines but didn’t salve the worries of those with not a lot to worry about. You could work yourself into a lather about the seat in the playroom or multiple other things but the OP has been answered. The stairs and steps are not in breach.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663876#Comment_121663876

Thats from the UK part K right? If so you interpretation is missing key info.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664953#Comment_121664953

That’s all correct Penn. But there is one addition relevant aspect of the UK part K. Right as the start, it states that the guidance for dwellings id for stairs with greater than 600mm rise. Which means that it won’t apply to most 3 steps stairs.

The only extra requirement in the UK is 3 steps that are 200-220mm require a handrail. That’s a pretty narrow scope.

So the 3 steps in the OP would probably not require a handrail.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667329#Comment_121667329

Those dual handrails are dangerous to kids and have stated to be removed from the school designs. The lower handrail provide a foot rest for a child to climb and then risk of falling over the higher handrail.

I believe we actually had a child fatality in recent years over this in a school here.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121665215#Comment_121665215

As I said, the TGDs are near identical in each. You’re guess they would be the same in each was correct, you just applied in the wrong direction.

As above, most 3 steps stairs do not require a handrail in the UK, just like in Ireland.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121667329#Comment_121667329

The decision to fit a handrail or not, doesn’t change the width of the threads. you simply install normal threads which allows allow space to retrofit a handrail. It’s a non-issue.

If somebody previously had a stroke, they would obvious have different requirements.

I would expect after a strike a person would want grab rails at the toilet, the bath etc. but installing than in every house as the safest possible solution is pretty bad design

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121673722#Comment_121673722

Source please.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121673770#Comment_121673770

How can you fit handrails without reducing the space available? Any handrail has to physically exist within the available space and therefore reduces the width available.

Presumably the whole of the Part M regs and all the Building For Everyone guidance are all pretty bad design too? You've just missed the point of about fifty years of accessible design and universal design.

It's not just about the person after a stroke, as outlined above. It's about the person with a toddler in one arm, and the person with a laundry basket in one arm, and the person with sight loss.

Handrails are important for lots of people, and are relatively easy to fit into any design, when they are designed in from the start.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121673903#Comment_121673903

Strange post considering it was widely published.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/community-saddened-after-tragic-12-21641635

The lower hand rail can provide a foot rest, therefore the 900mm/1100mm requirement from TGDK could be considered as to be taken from the new higher footrest instead of from the step/landing.

The below is an example of what you describe as good design, but the below is what we are removing from the designs because of increased risk of falling/climbing.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121673727#Comment_121673727

The main stairs in the house in Cashel would not meet UK building regs, because there is no handrail as specified on page 26 of the K document. It specifies the handrail should be between 40 - 45mm diameter. No way was that vertical edge of plywood 40 - 45mm diameter.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b642e5274a684690b8f0/2077370.pdf

We are more lax in Ireland about such safety measures, both it seems in the regs and the implimentation of them ( little or no building control / inspections ). Here in Ireland approximately 280 people die from accidental falls each year, with many, many more just injuring or hurting themselves, sometimes seriously. Anything to help reduce that number should be done. In the UK there is a responsibility for compliance ( see 0.6 at bottom of page 7 ). Knowing more than a few people who have been injured on stairs, I think our standards need to be improved to at least UK levels.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674108#Comment_121674108

A case of somebody dying because people over thought about potential accidents and completely missed the possibility of a horrendous one they were creating. Very sad.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121651084#Comment_121651084

Maybe they could air shows called Meet The Parents (hilarity ensues when adult children and their partners sleepover at the parents house)

Which Tent? (Choose the best outdoor gear for your homeless situation)

Tiny Homes (dodge building regs and planning permissions by living in a shed in the back garden)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674108#Comment_121674108

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674564#Comment_121674564

Are people really that ghoulish as to exploit a child's death to score some petty points in an online discussion? It seems so, around here.

There's no mention in any reports I can find about this death of a second lower handrail. The child in question had been seen sliding on banisters before the incident occurred. The remedial actions taken by the school after the death were fitting of domes to the banisters to prevent sliding AND the fitting of handrails to both sides of the stairs - no mention of the existence or removal of a lower handrail. 12 year old boys don't need a lower handrail to climb up onto banisters.

https://extra.ie/2022/03/16/news/irish-news/young-boy-died-falling-bannister-school

Formal guidance from a State body notes the benefits of having a lower second handrail.

From: https://universaldesign.ie/uploads/publications/Section-2-Entering-and-Moving-Around.pdf

"Well designed handrails can make stairs much easier to use for everyone. For

example, people with hearing difficulties often have issues with balance, and so a

handrail on both sides of the stair can be beneficial. An additional lower handrail

would benefit children and people of smaller stature using the stairs."

The current Dept Education design documents have a second, lower handrail.

https://assets.gov.ie/267534/840dc343-6271-4a74-a01e-3a998dc033f3.pdf

"4.6 In addition to the 900mm high handrail, a second handrail of 35mm diameter should be installed at 600mm high to both sides of all stairs in primary schools."

So when I asked for source please, I was asking for a source showing;

- the lower handrail was a factor in a child's death

- we are starting to remove lower handrails from school designs.

Please

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674528#Comment_121674528

An edge of plywood just isn't a handrail, regardless of the height or diameter. A handrail is designed to fit the grip of a hand. An edge of plywood does not fit anything.