Handrails on stairs necessary?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674917#Comment_121674917

Petty points?

Get lost Andrew.

It's quite clear the possibility of that accident happening was never considered. It was a bad design and at least it is being rectified by taking the things out.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674983#Comment_121674983

It's quite clear that you're continuing to exploit a child's death to continue to score petty points.

Please clarify

• Was there a lower handrail in that school?
• Was the lower handrail a factor in the child's death?
• Who specifically is rectifying and taking something out?

with sources please, of course.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675021#Comment_121675021

I am responding to what another poster has claimed.

You can stop with the 'ghoulish' nonsense right now. The ghouls have been imagining all sorts of accidents from 'splinters' to 'granny toppling over' since the thread began.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674940#Comment_121674940

Correct. As I said earlier, "The main stairs in the house in Cashel would not meet UK building regs, because there is no handrail as specified on page 26 of the K document. It specifies the handrail should be between 40 - 45mm diameter. No way was that vertical edge of plywood 40 - 45mm diameter."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b642e5274a684690b8f0/2077370.pdf

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674940#Comment_121674940

It is more substantial than an 'edge' of plywood. And may be awaiting a finished piece. Birch ply can be finished to a high quality splinter free level, I know, because I have done it several times. It is not the same as standard ply.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675112#Comment_121675112

You're repeating and expanding on what the other poster has claimed, exploiting a particular child's death, based on zero evidence. The detailed reports of the child's inquest do not support the claims made.

Absolutely ghoulish posting.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675150#Comment_121675150

It still not a handrail, even if finished in gold leaf and diamonds. It's not a handrail.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675175#Comment_121675175

It still doesn't negate the point made that a lower handrail can potentially act as a footing and make the balustrade climbable.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675150#Comment_121675150

It was you who first brought up the topic of "splinters" - see post no. 7 of this thread, where you use the words, and claim the stairs may have been unfinished (even though everyone else at the end of the programme thought the house was finished) and you used the phrase " as the chance of splinters would be quite high."

In any case, while it may pass our more lax Irish regs and standards, it would not pass UK regs or their building control / inspection ( we have virtually none) : see page 26 of their K regs. It shows sections of the handrails required with diameter 40 - 45 mm or else more oval hand rail with min radius 15mm etc.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675201#Comment_121675201

We ain't in the UK, bruv.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675211#Comment_121675211

I said that earlier, but given here in Ireland approximately 280 people die from accidental falls each year, with many, many more just injuring or hurting themselves, sometimes seriously, do you not think that anything to help reduce that number should be done? Do you not think our standards should be as good as UK standards?

In the UK there is a responsibility for compliance ( see 0.6 at bottom of page 7 ). Knowing more than a few people who have been injured on stairs, I think our standards need to be improved to at least UK levels.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675201#Comment_121675201

Yes, splinters would be a potential hazard if the stairs was unfinished and it very well might be. We simply don't know.

I was NOT damming th show or designer because of it though. The 'ghouls' were trying to but have only achieved the certainty that the house is in fact within regs and guidelines. When that was pointed out, the ghouls began ghouling about potential accidents they could see happening.

We are now having to endure some more 'the UK is better' tosh, in an effort to save face.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675238#Comment_121675238

Where are you getting the 280 deaths figure? In a previous post you stated you couldn't find how many in Ireland die from stair deaths each year, then you started coming out with the 280 figure. From a quick google myself, I can find the 700 deaths from the UK, but no Irish figures.

Care to share your source?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675183#Comment_121675183

It is within regs/guidelines.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675192#Comment_121675192

So just to be clear, we have formal published guidance from two public bodies, saying that lower handrails are a good idea, but you prefer to listen to vague and unsubstantiated rumours that do not have any connection to the reported facts of this particular case?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675268#Comment_121675268

Google is your friend. Even if you google "approximately 280 people die from accidental falls", you will see the .ie source that statistic comes from.

Nobody claims all falls are as a result of falling down stairs, but some are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675269#Comment_121675269

Only if you think that Irish regs are less safe than UK regs. Irish regs seem to be as clear as Tubridys pay was, and Irish building control / inspections do not exist when it comes to Residential property. Certainly no government inspections to see if build is up to standards. That despite the fact vat here on new builds is 13.5% and in the UK it is 0%, is it not? Hard to understand where all the money goes.

When people are being killed and others have life changing injuries, do you not think we should at least strive to match UK standards when it comes to something as simple as handrails?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675330#Comment_121675330

I'm not saying that, I'm saying they're not a requirement and if not designed correctly can potentially act as a climbable footing. The document you posted is also directed to stairs where by far the main usage is by children (primary schools), rather than general use or domestic stairs.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675269#Comment_121675269

TGD for Part K says; "A handrail may form the top of the guarding if the height is suitable. The handrail should be so constructed and fitted as to be capable of being readily gripped by hand and safely used. "

How is a top edge of plywood that doesn't align with the slope of the stairs 'readily gripped by the hand and safely used'? You can't grip a bit of plywood in the way you can grip a handrail, shaped for the hand. A handrail should be level with the slope of the stairs, so you stay at a consistent height from the handrail as you travel down the stairs. The top edge of plywood doesn't work that way.

So No, it's not in compliance with Part K TGD

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675338#Comment_121675338

Reading past the headline is your friend. The first result is from a document called "Preventing accidental falls among older people in long stay units"

Each year in Ireland approximately 280 people die from accidental falls and more than 75% of these are over 65 years (5). Of the 8,000 older people hospitalised annually due to injury, falls cause 80% of those admissions. Furthermore, 35% of all injury admissions in this age group are because of lower limb fractures of which three-quarters are to the hip (6). The Irish Public Health Information System (PHIS) documents approximately 3,000 hospital discharges per year after treatment for hip fracture in people over 65. Their average length of hospital stay is 14 days (7). The approximate acute hospital cost of treating a hip fracture is IR£4,500 (6).

I also did a word-search of the document for both "stair" and "step". No results found. Repeating that 280 people die from falls each year demonstrates nothing in the context of this discussion without any indication of how many of those happen on stairs/steps. You can't just say "280 people die from falls, not all on stairs, but some are". That's utterly meaningless.

Also, it has the hospital cost in £, because it's from the late 90's.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675361#Comment_121675361

Did anyone say that they were a requirement?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675366#Comment_121675366

How is a top edge of plywood that doesn't align with the slope of the stairs 'readily gripped by the hand and safely used'? You can't grip a bit of plywood in the way you can grip a handrail, shaped for the hand. A handrail should be level with the slope of the stairs, so you stay at a consistent height from the handrail as you travel down the stairs. The top edge of plywood doesn't work that way.

Where is this covered in the TGD?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675452#Comment_121675452

Do you want a page number or what? I gave you the direct quote from the TGD so a quick text search will get you there.

It's the section on handrails, funnily enough.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675479#Comment_121675479

You'll have to show me where this text is in that document:

How is a top edge of plywood that doesn't align with the slope of the stairs 'readily gripped by the hand and safely used'? You can't grip a bit of plywood in the way you can grip a handrail, shaped for the hand. A handrail should be level with the slope of the stairs, so you stay at a consistent height from the handrail as you travel down the stairs. The top edge of plywood doesn't work that way.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675483#Comment_121675483

Are you just being an ass now? Tell how the edge of plywood can be readily gripped by the hand, when it's not shaped for gripping?

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675533#Comment_121675533

I agree, the edge of plywood could not be readily gripped by someone tripping or falling down those stairs ( especially those kite winder steps on the corner, only a few inches wide on one side ), perhaps because they were old, feeble, drunk, partially sighted, careless, rushing carrying a baby or carrying laundry or whatever.

To avoid doubt in the UK, they have wisely shown cross sections of hand rail requirements there, and specified minimum dimensions, radius etc. They are round and sort of oval shaped etc.

The main stairs in the house in Cashel would not meet UK building regs, because there is no handrail as specified on page 26 of the K document. It specifies the handrail should be between 40 - 45mm diameter. No way was that vertical edge of plywood 40 - 45mm diameter."

Neither is there a radius of minimum 15mm on an oval shaped handrail, because there is none.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a79b642e5274a684690b8f0/2077370.pdf

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675533#Comment_121675533

How am I being an ass?

I asked you to show me where in the document posted, there where details of the slope of a stairs to rails or where it defines what can be readily gripped, which is what was said in this piece of your post

How is a top edge of plywood that doesn't align with the slope of the stairs 'readily gripped by the hand and safely used'? You can't grip a bit of plywood in the way you can grip a handrail, shaped for the hand. A handrail should be level with the slope of the stairs, so you stay at a consistent height from the handrail as you travel down the stairs. The top edge of plywood doesn't work that way.

Stop being obtuse and just show where it says anything about that? If it does, fine, if it doesn't, just say it.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675573#Comment_121675573

As was clear to anyone with brain cell count running into double figures, the first part of my post was a direct quote from the TGD Part K (that was the bit surrounded by quotation marks). The second part of the post was my commentary on that.

Now you told us that the stairs was compliant with regs and guidelines, so why don't you explain how a plywood edge can be 'readily gripped and safely used' by someone stepping down the staircase? There's a reason why handrails run along the slope of the staircase, and not (as you're suggesting) level, causing the user to bend their arm further and further on each step. Would you like me to explain how people put one foot in front of the other on the stairs as well?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675599#Comment_121675599

It is obvious that the guarding can be readily gripped.

There is no requirement in the TGD that it be 'gripped like a handrail' that is YOUR requirement only.

That is why this type of stairs can be sold in Ireland, it is no different to the plywood in terms of 'gripping'.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121675425#Comment_121675425

No, but in a thread called "Handrails on stairs necessary" where we're discussing what the requirements are, I would have thought it to be relevant to distinguish between what may be considered a desireable or good practice depending on the circumstances, and what is an actual requirement.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121674917#Comment_121674917

Are people really that dramatic to think about points scoring online with strangers l? It seems so around here?

I never said they what the cause of the fall was. I was posting against the lower handrail as bad design allowing for children to climb them. And t own experience is that they are still bad design without the appropriate higher than normal additional guarding.

It is noted from the document you posted the schools require a higher than normal guarding of 1400mm (Fig.1) which is above and beyond the TGDK which could be considered a reasonable approach and mitigation measure to remove the risk of the lower hand rail becoming a foot rest.

I have no argument about the provision of handrails here btw. I want handrails. I’m only arguing the provision of lower level handrails.