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Prime Time Gender Issues (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,777 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Where and when have there been doctors "performing mutilations of kids because they are think they are a different gender"?

    This seems to be a figment of your imagination.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    For years being gay was treated as a mental illness.

    We're getting a better understanding of these things now. We understand that sexuality isn't binary.

    The same goes for gender.

    And I understand why people find it hard to understand. I found it hard to understand. I still don't completely understand it. The idea of being trans is completely alien to me. I don't understand what it's like. I don't understand what they feel. In my head it's weird. But to fair I don't know what it's like to be gay. I'm straight. The idea of wanting to have a sexual experience with a guy is alien to me. The only way I can align it in my head is to say they feel the same about men that I feel about women. But my own feeling of my gender is so innate that I have trouble imagining what it's like to not have it.

    But I've learned that i don't need to understand it. Trans people exist. They are real people. They have genuine authentic experiences. And it's backed up by the vast majority of the medical establishment. We just need to accept that they are the way they are.


    btw, no-one is mutilating children. The road to medically transitioning is long. There's a lot of checks before they reach that point. can this be improved? definitely. They may be some occasions where extra time is needed, and occasions when less time is needed. So we should be investing more money into research and treatment, both counselling and medical treatments. Banning it is just wrong. It's been proven over and over again that when society accepts trans people, they have a far better quality of life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭plodder


    I thought the program was pretty good. They asked TENI to take part but they refused.

    Very few children would have received surgical intervention here. The concern is mainly around puberty blockers and cross sex hormone treatment. Initially it was claimed that blockers are reversible and their purpose was to provide a waiting space for children to question their identity, but the stats show that almost everyone who goes on puberty blockers goes on to receive hormone treatment later. There's scant evidence that they are actually reversible as well. The usage is "off label" and the manufacturers apparently don't want to conduct trials to study their effects.

    What I find amazing about all this, is that the origin of this mode of treatment is the so-called "Dutch Protocol" which required patients to be heavily screened for suitability, and which afaik, is what the two doctors on the program advocate. So, why then is the HSE ignoring their advice? What other branch of medicine does this happen? I don't think any other branch of medicine is so heavily influenced by non-medically qualified activists.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,129 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,129 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra



    Gender "dysmorphia" doesn't exist.

    Perhaps you meant research on Gender dysphoria. What is this research? Links?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,129 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Oh well that's interesting the stats you quote show there is a medical pathway that people choose to continue to go down. This suggests then that hormone blockers work as intended in that case.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,777 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Would you like to share your research please?

    Should we bring 'parents guesses' into all other medical treatment scenarios? Let's see if parents can make guesses about cardiac issues, meningitis, sepsis, query limb fractures, autism, depression - we can hold off on all treatments for these so, right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭plodder


    What people "choose" isn't always in their best interests. That's really the whole point they are making.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,129 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Why? Who are you to decide its not in the best interests of someone to make their own decisions about their own life?

    Research from Australia , Spain, Netherlands, UK, US all demonstrates a low level of desistance - for trans adolescents it’s only around 2%

    Trans healthcare/social transition doesn’t harm trans kids.

    Denying them does.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,732 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    Maybe it's me, but we seem to be increasingly listening to fringe interests over common sense for fear of causing offence, perceived or otherwise.

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,129 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    What's common sense about denying trans kids and forcing them to deny their own existence?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,185 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    I find it quite interesting that the overwhelming majority of the talking heads last night and in general on this topic are men that have transitioned.

    For example, I've not yet heard of the female to male shouting about being allowed to use men's changing rooms, it's always men (that ive seen), many of whom are still packing meat and two veg that want access to female only changing rooms.

    It's never female to male athletes shouting about being allowed to play in men's sports.

    I heard something over the weekend about internalised misogyny and essentially, alot of biological women feel they have to go along with the charade, rather than upsetting men.

    There is no doubt in my mind that there are more than a few men out there claiming to be women so they can access female only areas, do better in sports and get lighter prison sentences. These individuals are doing serious damage to those people in the world that are genuinely trans and who just want to go about their lives.

    Thankfully the world now seems to be ready to take a step back from everything and ask the questions that need to be asked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    But puberty blockers have been used for decades to stop early onset puberty. Whether they're used earlier or later, there's a lot of experience in their use. Just because they're using it on someone trans and not cis, doesn't make a difference to the medical outcome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 918 ✭✭✭DarkJager21


    Social contagion and a perpetual need to be seen as unique compared to their peers. So one says they are trans, the next will one up by claiming to be non binary and the trump card one will claim to be both.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭plodder


    It's not for me to decide. I'm saying it should be doctors who decide. An extreme comparison maybe, but doctors can prescribe fentanyl for the relief of certain kinds of severe pain. "Choosing" to put that in your body outside a doctor's control nearly always ends in disaster.

    As for the research, there's an awful lot of poor quality research out there. Systematic reviews are the highest standard and they are saying the evidence basis is not there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Uhm, they don't shout about it because they're simply allowed do those things without much complaint. I don't know any guy who obsesses over what if someone with a vagina using one of the cubicles in the mens (happens all the time any time the queue for the ladies gets too long). And in changing rooms, guys don't go around checking out each others' junk unless they're looking for something so ignorance is bliss there. Similarly, given that men are considered better at sports than women, there's no fairness issues around allowing people who have transitioned from female to male to compete in men's sports if they so wish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,129 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Well why are you suggesting it's not in people's best interest if you believe it's for doctors to decide?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Kids shouldn't even know about this kind of stuff. They should be riding bikes and having fun.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭plodder


    There's a huge difference between a condition like early onset puberty with a physiological cause versus one like gender dysphoria which has a psychological cause. That's why the use is approved in one case and off label in the other.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭apache


    Just catching up on it now. Why did TENI refuse to take part? Didn't even give a statement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,129 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,636 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Exactly. Treat kids as kids, not miniature adults, or even worse, using them as ideological pawns.

    Once you're 18, they can identify as a badger or toaster or whatever, knock yourself out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,129 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Indeed. It could be argued pretending trans kids don't exist is using them as ideological pawns. It's an ideology to pretend trans kids don't exist.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    No there's not. Physically the uses are both the same. In both cases someone starts puberty and the drugs stop it. The medical effects are the exact same.

    Psychologically in both cases the onset of puberty is distressful. In both cases the blockers relieve this distress.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,777 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    None of which are in any way unique, so it doesn't really seem to be about being unique.

    Are you suggesting that trans kids don't exist, or should be just ignored until they reach 18?

    Many trans kids 'know about this kind of stuff' from four or five onwards, because they are living it. It's hard to be 'having fun' when a fundamental part of your human nature is wrong, and you're being forced to live a life that doesn't match what you are.

    It IS doctors who decide. No one gets medication, surgery, even therapy without having been medically assessed.

    Forcing someone to live a life that is fundamentally wrong for them is nothing to do with 'causing offence, perceived or otherwise'. It is a cruel and unusual torture.

    Because they knew the programme would be completely unbalanced, and they didn't want to give it any legitimacy, most likely.



  • Posts: 0 Kylan Nice Salami


    And when everyone’s unique, nobody’s unique, so an alternative uniqueness has to be sought. Social media has a lot to do with social contagion of all kinds, and children are accessing it waaay too young for de eloping minds to cope with. It really is psychological abuse of children to allow unfettered access to it at a young age and we are going to realise that in many ways in decades to come.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,779 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Of course they do.

    But the recent trend of teenage girls saying they are boys is another story.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Which you blamed on autism, with literally no evident to support your claim. As far as I can tell you don't know anything about autism or trans people.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Because it's screwing kids up. Kids are suggestible, if you put the wrong ideas into their heads you can mess them up.

    For most of human history kids did not know anything about so-called transgenderism. They turned out fine.

    For the last decade, kids in the Western world have been exposed to the ridiculous notion that they might be 'born in the wrong body', or that they would be happier if they switched gender. They read about it on the internet, saw it on a tv show, or maybe a perverted teacher taught it to them.

    We can objectively compare before and after. The outcome of transgender ideology is overwhelmingly negative. Learning about this stuff has not made kids happier. It's confused them, it has induced transgenderism in kids who would never have got it. Lives have been ruined, kids have been mutilated.

    It's a literal epidemic. It's a disease that did not exist in any real numbers for the entirety of human history. Now they're saying 1 in 25 have it? The stats are shocking, I saw somewhere that there was a rise of 400% in a few years. We need to deal with it like any epidemic, stamp it out.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭BruteStock


    Its makes a massive difference if puberty blockers are being retrofitted for trans healthcare. Many teens who get surgery as soon as they hit 18 are still under the effect the blockers have on their mental state. When they stop treatment , and their mind develops , many suffer from transition regret. This leads to suicide. Its documented , its a fact. That people would deny this so more youth sleep walk into life changing surgeries isn't just malpractice or ignorance , its an act of evil.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,779 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    No insight at all into why teenage girls suddenly saying they're boys.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,777 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Not providing services to trans kids leads to suicide. It's documented. It's a fact. In far greater numbers than the tiny percentage of a tiny percentage of transition regret cases.

    Did you talk to many trans people about the 'turned out fine' worked out for them?



  • Posts: 0 Kylan Nice Salami


    When I was very young I hated being called a girl, I despised the term, I felt mentally like a boy. Possibly because I had 3 boys living either side of me and had frequent encounters, I don’t know. I hated dolls, threw one out the window, loved guns, Lego, meccano, cars, airfix planes, anything to do with engineering. I was best at maths and also anything creative that wasn’t sewing or knitting. Clothes bored me except I always wanted to wear trousers rather than dresses. Nowadays I would have been considered transgender.

    Later I preferred to have a relatively gender neutral look. Became more feminine as I progressed through life, always sexually attracted to men. I learned to fly aircraft, and continued with interests that wouldn’t always be considered feminine by society. As time went on I realised that being female can mean having typical male interests and outlook. There’s many ways of being a man or woman.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,511 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    No, the word grooming is not exclusive to child sex abuse.

    noun: grooming

    1.

    the practice of brushing and cleaning the coat of a horse, dog, or other animal.

    "regular grooming is essential to the well-being of your dog"

    the practice by an animal of cleaning its own or another animal's fur or skin.

    "mutual grooming expresses the friendly relationship between cats"

    the practice of keeping a neat and tidy appearance.

    "she pays great attention to grooming and clothes"

    2.

    the practice of preparing or training someone for a particular purpose or activity.

    "Allen was expected to need lot of grooming before he was ready to take over"

    3.

    the action of attempting to form a relationship with a child or young person, with the intention of sexually assaulting them or inducing them to commit an illegal act such as selling drugs or joining a terrorist organization.

    "online grooming has become a growing cause for concern"


    Note the second meaning. Prime Time exposed grooming via the internet and showed an example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,511 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    "Like being rogered!". Have you not heard of Tops and Bottoms!

    There's a higher proportion of gay people in the autistic community

    Really! Evidence for this?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,185 ✭✭✭El Gato De Negocios


    The teenage years are exceedingly difficult for women, from menstruation to hormonal changes to the unending stream of social media and the "perfect female form". I genuinely believe that the stresses of adolescence are too much for some young women so rather than have to deal with the crap that goes hand in hand with being female, its easier to just say they arent female. Part of it is fad too no doubt, trying to be different, rebelliousness etc. Obviously there are some people that are geniune and will go on to adulthood and transition to living as a male but alot of it is just trying to survive puberty. And that doesnt even touch the presence of ASD.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,409 ✭✭✭✭Grayson



    https://sparkforautism.org/discover_article/autism-lgbtq-identity/


    There's two short articles. In general though, an autistic person is far more likely to be LGBTQ+ and that goes for every letter there.


    Edit: BTW, they were just the first two google results. There was just page after page when I googled it. If you're interested in knowing more about neurodivergence I'd recommend a book called "Unmasking Autism". It's written by a neurodivergent queer person.

    Post edited by Grayson on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,511 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    There was zero balance in the show. No mention of the harms done to the much larger majority of trans kids and adults by NOT having access to services. No mention of the years of delay on the waiting lists for services. No mention of how rare 'regret' is for those who have gone through surgery.

    It was a fairly classic hit piece.

    Rubbish. The report wasn't intended as a documentary on the joy's of trans medial care, it was a expose on how the HSE are being led by outside influences like WPATH with their so called 'affirmative care' model. It was triggered by a formal complaint 2 doctors who founded the national gender services made to the HSE.

    TENI were invited to comment but declined and they had a rep on from Trans Healthcare Ireland. Doesn't sound like an unbalanced hit piece to me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,197 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,779 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    This is what it seems like to me. It's hard to believe that 100% of girls who say they are boys are in fact trans.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,931 ✭✭✭✭Rothko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,777 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    So you're proposing withholding care from the 100% of trans kids because some of that 100% may change their mind later?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,777 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    That's the point though. If you're going to cover any health topic as a journalist, would you choose;

    1) Long delays in accessing current service, dreadful treatment of those who DO access current service, or

    2) A theoretical concern about the policy position of the HSE, which has no documented impact on those using their service.

    Prime Time chose option 2, putting the concerns of the two medics in the service ahead of the concerns of many of those using the service and many of those who are waiting to use the service.

    That's a classic hit piece.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭plodder


    It IS doctors who decide. No one gets medication, surgery, even therapy without having been medically assessed.

    That might be the case in theory, but in practice maybe not so much. Minister Mary Butler was caught saying it out loud below, and she had to be protected by her officials by removing it from the minutes of the meeting mentioned:

    Among the details in the draft minutes proposed by the NGS that were not included by the department, it recorded Ms Butler advocating for the use of GenderGP, an online service, as an “alternative” to state-provided care for Irish patients.

    GenderGP provides medication through the internet without any face to face consultation. Then there's the question of the quality and depth of any medical assessment that is done. Maybe sometimes it was thorough, but multiple whistle-blowers from the Tavistock have claimed that wasn't always the case.

    The research that fed into the conversion therapy ban bill identifies "interactions with therapists who created barriers to gender affirming care" as possible conversion therapy. If that becomes law, it will create a chilling effect on doctors, and a pressure to affirm whatever it is that a teenager is saying.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,777 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The GP in GenderGP is 'General Practitioner', right? They ARE doctors, right?

    You're article is paywalled and you're quoting unnamed and unsourced research, which doesn't' add much to the discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,180 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Not at all.

    What is in question is the model of care, not the fact that care is needed.

    If a person feels like they are a cat, you can:

    1 Start treating them like a cat immediately , or

    2 Sympathetically and politely explore this feeling, where it came from, what it means for them and their future or

    3 kick the up the backside and tell them not to be so stupid.


    3 is nuts. But so is 1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,479 ✭✭✭plodder


    Those doctors got into trouble with the UK medical council and they moved the business to Spain afaik.

    I quoted the relevant text directly from the Independent article.

    The research was conducted at TCD and is linked from the page below:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,777 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Except that there is no feline involvement with this topic. It is about transgender people.

    So would you like to restate your position for transgender people? Are you proposing a kick up the arse as appropriate treatment?



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