Prime Time Gender Issues (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499109#Comment_121499109

This is what it seems like to me. It's hard to believe that 100% of girls who say they are boys are in fact trans.

Rothko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121497345#Comment_121497345

I would hope so.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499560#Comment_121499560

So you're proposing withholding care from the 100% of trans kids because some of that 100% may change their mind later?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499075#Comment_121499075

https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/gender-and-sexuality-in-autism-explained/

This is one of many articles discussing the subject.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499413#Comment_121499413

That's the point though. If you're going to cover any health topic as a journalist, would you choose;

1) Long delays in accessing current service, dreadful treatment of those who DO access current service, or

2) A theoretical concern about the policy position of the HSE, which has no documented impact on those using their service.

Prime Time chose option 2, putting the concerns of the two medics in the service ahead of the concerns of many of those using the service and many of those who are waiting to use the service.

That's a classic hit piece.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498602#Comment_121498602

It IS doctors who decide. No one gets medication, surgery, even therapy without having been medically assessed.

That might be the case in theory, but in practice maybe not so much. Minister Mary Butler was caught saying it out loud below, and she had to be protected by her officials by removing it from the minutes of the meeting mentioned:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/department-of-health-officials-accused-of-deleting-details-after-meeting-over-unsafe-tavistock-transgender-services/42304977.html

Among the details in the draft minutes proposed by the NGS that were not included by the department, it recorded Ms Butler advocating for the use of GenderGP, an online service, as an “alternative” to state-provided care for Irish patients.

GenderGP provides medication through the internet without any face to face consultation. Then there's the question of the quality and depth of any medical assessment that is done. Maybe sometimes it was thorough, but multiple whistle-blowers from the Tavistock have claimed that wasn't always the case.

The research that fed into the conversion therapy ban bill identifies "interactions with therapists who created barriers to gender affirming care" as possible conversion therapy. If that becomes law, it will create a chilling effect on doctors, and a pressure to affirm whatever it is that a teenager is saying.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499727#Comment_121499727

The GP in GenderGP is 'General Practitioner', right? They ARE doctors, right?

You're article is paywalled and you're quoting unnamed and unsourced research, which doesn't' add much to the discussion.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499656#Comment_121499656

Not at all.

What is in question is the model of care, not the fact that care is needed.

If a person feels like they are a cat, you can:

1 Start treating them like a cat immediately , or

2 Sympathetically and politely explore this feeling, where it came from, what it means for them and their future or

3 kick the up the backside and tell them not to be so stupid.

3 is nuts. But so is 1.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499751#Comment_121499751

Those doctors got into trouble with the UK medical council and they moved the business to Spain afaik.

I quoted the relevant text directly from the Independent article.

The research was conducted at TCD and is linked from the page below:

https://www.irishlegal.com/articles/ban-on-conversion-practices-to-be-brought-forward-this-year

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499764#Comment_121499764

Except that there is no feline involvement with this topic. It is about transgender people.

So would you like to restate your position for transgender people? Are you proposing a kick up the arse as appropriate treatment?

archfi

The paywalled article can be read in a private browsing window, here's the bit about the 'GP's':

“The NGS clinicians clarified that GenderGP is an unregulated and unsafe

service whose founders had been suspended from the General Medical

Council in the UK because of this company’s harmful and illegal

activities, and that this company is in breach of Irish Medical Council

guidelines.”

The department did not respond to questions about whether Ms Butler accepts

she promoted GenderGP at the August meeting. The online service has

also been promoted by some staff and directors of the Transgender

Equality Network of Ireland (Teni), one of Ireland’s largest transgender

support groups.

GenderGP has no age limits for providing care or minimum time periods before

recommending prescriptions for puberty blockers. It does not always

require parental consent to treat children.

Last year the UK’s General Medical Council sanctioned both its founders,

Helen and Michael Webberley, for unsafe care of patients. Dr Michael

Webberley was struck off after a tribunal found he failed several

patients by not conducting proper assessments before and after

recommending hormones or puberty blockers. He was found to be working

outside his specialty as a gastroenterologist.

His wife Helen was suspended after she was found not to have properly

explained fertility impacts to a patient seeking to transition.'

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496865#Comment_121496865

In olden days people with those type of opinions were affectionately referred to as fruitloops and ignored when the adults in the room discussed things.

Nowadays they are the ones setting the discourse, paid for the privilege and actual scientist, doctors are meant to listen to them.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499771#Comment_121499771

So when you said "That might be the case in theory, but in practice maybe not so much" in response to my point about care being provided by doctors, you were still talking about doctors? Why the 'no so much'? They're still doctors.

It's hard to get the context of the piece you quoted, or indeed the relevance without seeing the full piece. But I'm not sure I'm getting your point - the Minister mentioned an online service (once again, just for the absence of any doubt, provided by doctors) as an alternative. Why do you mention this to counter my point about services being provided by doctors?

The phrase you quoted from the Trinity research is a segment reporting on the views of research participants. That's the position quoted by some research participant(s). It's not the opinion of the paper authors. Taking one sentence out of context from a 100+ page research report doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

And why do you describe this paper as 'The research that fed into the conversion therapy ban bill'? What's the connection between the research and the bill?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499656#Comment_121499656

Puberty stoppers seem to be a safe interim whilst the young mind transitions to adulthood. Re denial of medical care, it’s already denied to so many In account of our inadequate health services, and I speak from direct experience. Mental Health services are even more grossly inadequate on every count.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499413#Comment_121499413

They didn't read out TENIs full statement so yes it was very much unbalanced

https://teni.ie/teni-statement-to-rte-prime-time/

Re appendicectomy, it is an acute abdominal random emergency which has a high rate of being quickly lethal if not operated. It is as daft a medical comparison as any I’ve heard.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499791#Comment_121499791

How did referring to people as fruitloops work out for trans people?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499786#Comment_121499786

It's always fascinating to see the intense interest of some Irish people in the minute detail of goings-on in this sector in the UK and around the world. No speck of dirt is too small to be sniffed, magnified, reported out of context, and repeated to stir up uncertainty and doubt.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499797#Comment_121499797

So when you said "That might be the case in theory, but in practice maybe not so much" in response to my point about care being provided by doctors, you were still talking about doctors? Why the 'no so much'? They're still doctors.

It's hard to get the context of the piece you quoted, or indeed the relevance without seeing the full piece. But I'm not sure I'm getting your point - the Minister mentioned an online service (once again, just for the absence of any doubt, provided by doctors) as an alternative. Why do you mention this to counter my point about services being provided by doctors?

Do I really have to explain this? A "service" that involves no meaningful consultation, even if provided by a doctor is entirely inadequate in meeting the needs of gender dysphoric teenagers.

It's really the crux of the dispute between the NGS doctors and organisations like TENI (supported by the HSE). TENI regards people like these doctors as "gate keepers" preventing kids from getting access to the medication they want which is presumably why they encourage people to use these online services.

So, where do you stand on that point? Do you think gender dysphoric teenagers should be given whatever they want (by a GP who just signs a prescription), or should they be assessed more rigorously first?

The phrase you quoted from the Trinity research is a segment reporting on the views of research participants. That's the position quoted by some research participant(s). It's not the opinion of the paper authors. Taking one sentence out of context from a 100+ page research report doesn't make a huge amount of sense.

And why do you describe this paper as 'The research that fed into the conversion therapy ban bill'? What's the connection between the research and the bill?

Because the research was published by the government department that is drafting the bill. It's in the article I linked.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121496865#Comment_121496865

The point that they're making, I think, is - in very simple terms - that being trans is not being sick, or ill or a medical condition. It's just part of who they are. This pathologising of trans status is similar indeed to what happened to gay people within living memory.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499900#Comment_121499900

The logical response to it not being a medical issue would mean that therefore medical treatment is not appropriate for a non medical issue. So which is it? A medical issue that needs to be addressed medically? A psychological issue that needs to be addressed by a therapist? Or social issue that needs to be affirmed by society without recourse to any medically induced changes?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499888#Comment_121499888

Where did you get 'no meaningful consultation' from?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499900#Comment_121499900

Great, so it's not an illness, no medical care or treatment is required! Simples.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499929#Comment_121499929

Except that nice neat logic doesn't work. The support needed by trans people typically involves some combination of therapy, hormones, surgery - which are medical treatments. It may not fit into your nice neat box, but that's the reality of the support that trans people need.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499965#Comment_121499965

Well, eh, no.

Why should relevant healthcare be withheld from people just because you find it a bit icky?

cgcsb

In the early 2000s I seem to remember just about every teenage female was 'bisexual' of course the actual incidence of bisexuality remained below 5% but there were an avalanche of 'lesbian' kisses in popular music videos and there was still MTV at the time so of course that was just a fad, a completely harmless one of course. I do wonder is there an element of transgenderism being a fad, in the sense that many teens presenting as trans may not actually be so and may be prescribed harmful medication.

Also does anyone remember goths\skaters\emos etc. Teens don't seem to have those tribes anymore, they all wear completely identical north face jackets and the outsiders are all 'they/thems'

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500017#Comment_121500017

People who are not sick don't need healthcare!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500139#Comment_121500139

Trans people are not sick, and absolutely need some or all of therapy, hormones and surgery.

This isn't some debating game, this is real life people.

There's only two conclusions of your position that I can see;

1) No trans person should get therapy, hormones or surgery.

2) Trans people have to admit that this fundamental aspect of their nature constitutes being 'sick' solely because you've decided to place this barrier to treatment in front of them.

Which option are you proposing?

What benefit arises from labelling people as 'sick'?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500017#Comment_121500017

Ive had tons of icky stoma related healthcare because i was seriously ill, I am attending a clinic because of MS. If I didn’t have an illness I wouldn’t need highly specialised healthcare. Doctors don’t treat social issues other than as they give rise to medical issues.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121500171#Comment_121500171

Did you just decide this arbitrary rule or label? I'll ask you the same question as Mrs O'B

There's only two conclusions of your position that I can see;

1) No trans person should get therapy, hormones or surgery.

2) Trans people have to admit that this fundamental aspect of their nature constitutes being 'sick' solely because you've decided to place this barrier to treatment in front of them.

Which option are you proposing?

What benefit arises from labelling people as 'sick'?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121499777#Comment_121499777

I think from my reading of Mrs O’Bumble’s post she’s suggesting The middle course, the listening ear.