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The UK had to come to Ireland's aid as a Russian submarine was 'hovering' 12 miles from Cork harbour

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭satguy


    NATO wanted,, (and when we say NATO we mean the USA) .. To place missiles right up against the Russian west border, and had bribed that nut job Volodymyr Zelenskyy to let it happen.

    But we here in Ireland have done nothing to Russia, and are in no danger from them.

    If some Google fiber optic cable passes by our coast, why does that make us responsible for it's protection.

    Maybe the USA will let Russia put some of their missiles on the island of Cuba, and things will balance out again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭An Claidheamh


    You have just completed the Gammon armchair general bingo card:

    blame SF check

    Ireland is ruled by the EU check

    EU worse since UK left (good riddance) check

    Britain bailed out Ireland check


    Anything else?


    Something about the Pope or how Churchill killed Hitler?


    I’m no fan of Russia, but to believe they are responsible for uncontrolled illegal immigration (from many British commonwealth and French colonies) is pure propaganda



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭An Claidheamh



    I stopped believing in British sea power after they repeatedly got humiliated.

    It’s all for show now

    In fact, they seem to prefer hanging around Ireland and close to home, probably for the best



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Then why are Russia pushing migrants into europe




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ah here. "Ruinous to our economy" is ridiculously overstating the cost by several orders of magnitude.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Ok, overstating a little, but it would immediately curry criticism and pushback 'cos of the cost of first purchasing the equipment and then the maintenance and logistics required to keep it all going. A government would be rightly hauled over the coals for "wassting" money on a couple of Dassaults than spending it on, say, housing or childcare

    Point being, you can't half-áss this, and "being able to protect our borders" is just an empty soundbite that quickly runs into reality the moment you try working the numbers. We're much better off with some kind of Joint Protection Treaty (well, not so much "joint" I suppose) than trying to drum up some anti-sub ships or somesuch - but that'd probably bristle with the "sovereignty" die-hards



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,760 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I agree it would face massive criticism and there is no point half assing it.

    Unfortunately this is the difficulty governments face in general. At the very least for our naval patrol work and the type of mission the rangers did recently we are chronically under funded/supplied.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    Theres three options:

    1. join NATO and spend up to 2% our GDP on defence
    2. stay neutral and actually spend on defence what neutral similarly developed countries such as Switzerland and Austria do
    3. Do nothing and continue to rely on Brits


    Option 3 is just plain embarrassing by this stage as defence is a key competency of any state, I’m ok with either 1 or 2, there’s plenty big budget surpluses anyways to afford it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Fourth option: push and spearhead the EU Army idea; it has been floated enough and given all that has happened Ukraine - and may yet happen - could become more relevant than is comfortable. Wouldn't be surprised if Poland become the new vanguard of the proposal. It has been stealthily forwarded over the last decade or so through exercises IIRC and at from our POV would have much to offer. The safety net of our actual working neighbours' combined forces is more useful than relying on the charity of the now flaky British.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭TokTik


    Again, they are not “fighting for us”. They are looking after their own interests. If it wasn’t in their interests they’d leave the Russians to enter Irish airspace and waters and wouldn’t give a fook about us.

    They aren’t doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, as some seem to believe.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    That’s an interesting idea, I be ok with that too but I could also see how that would trigger Sinn Fein and their supporters and the loony conspiracy theory fringe on far left and far right



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    So we should be actually be doing for our own interests



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭TokTik


    What interests? What have we got that Russia wants?? What infrastructure do we own that the Russians might interfere with??



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    We have freedom and prosperity

    Putin doesn’t like examples of successful countries that are not run by criminal mafia

    It makes his serfs question why they are 10x poorer (despite living in larger country in world with most resources) than those Paddies over there who are not living in an oligarchic dystopia



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Hey how’s it down at Orwell Road these days? Must be lonely.


    By the way by Putin illegally invading a sovereign country and had he succeeded in taking the whole country he would have brought Russia closer to NATO.


    Thankfully for him Ukraine fought back and saved Putins bacon.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    It has been floated for ages now and I think even had a few concerted efforts to create one - but always fell foul from Eurosceptic parties crying foul and scaremongering about conscription into an EU Army. IIRC there have been joint exercises taking place between national armed forces that have acted as a functional EU Army, with the plausible deniability if people asked too much.

    If Ukraine falls to Russia then it has to come back on the table; it's unsavoury but the continent's defence - nevermind our coastline - being at the whim of 20+ armed forces and the bureaucracies to match, is insane. We'd need a single entity to control things.

    Cards on the table I'm a real United States of Europe convert so admit federalisation would also require a "federal" armed force for security.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,266 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    One word- Instability.


    It’s what Russia do, like they have done in all the other countries they have invaded.


    Look at what they are doing in Africa, Syria etc etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Russman


    Would you be happy for Russia to have free reign in our waters and airspace, and for us not to spend money defending them, purely because we have nothing to interest them ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭quokula


    What is embarrassing about option 3? It gives us exactly the same outcome as option 2 while being far better for our economy. And it doesn't leave us at risk of being dragged into a war like option 1.

    If you want the government to actually provide the best outcomes for the population rather than engage in some sort of militaristic willy waving for the sake of pride or something rather than any real benefit, then option 3 is by far the best choice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    It is not relevant to the discussion how big British sea power is now, or not ( they only have 2 aircraft carriers, 10 submarines etc etc)....what we are talking about is how we do not even have just one ship in our little navy with sonar, so it knows what is underwater.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    It appears you know little about US military power.

    The US has a lot of interest in this country and that was why the Russians had disportionate amount of embassy staff in little old Ireland.

    Ireland is very important to US from a commercial standpoint and anything that would threaten US economic interests means military can get involved.

    A carrier group alone can carry out a huge amount of destruction and then you add in bases in UK/Germany/Spain.

    And we are actually not that far off US coast when you consider B2s flew non stop missions to Serbia from Missouri in US.



  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭duck.duck.go


    What’s bad about having the guys who occupied us for 800 years (and still own a chunk of the island) defend us? Neither are they in EU anymore and it seems we are getting a string of ever more authoritarian prime ministers

    Does one really need to answer that one??



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭1874


    Ok, where did you get your proof, and who do you think the US system is an different. US News media aren't credible sources



  • Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭toucheswood


    With the economy booming like never before, and none of it apparent in failing healthcare or housing or transport or education or infrastructure in general, it must all be going into defense. Right?

    Actually, no, it looks like none of the money is there either!

    One of these days we'll track down the point of this pesky economy, one of these days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 449 ✭✭L.Ball


    I think a russian sub lobbing a few nukes at the population centres would see a marked improvement tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Two claims were made - first, that the Brits are 'defending' us, and second that the Russians could invade at any time.

    Now the first is plainly nonsense - the Brits treat us like we've still part of their empire, and the fact that our government acquiesces sort of encourages them in their views. I think most people with an interest in the matter were horrified to find out that our government has various 'understandings' with the UK (military overflight and the like), the US (informal use of Shannon as a base) etc on military matters that have never been explicitly approved by the Dáil.

    On the second matter, just how would the Russians take us by surprise? Do you think they might dig a tunnel from Russia to Ireland to infiltrate us? Because any other method would not be a surprise - they would need either a flotilla full of soldiers and equipment or an enormous wave of aircraft filled with the same.

    And in either case, it would be sort of obvious that something was up. Blocking the runways of our airports would stymie the air invasion (obviously not paratroopers) so the flotilla would be their better option, albeit less likely to go unnoticed. Even at that, huge waves of aircraft flying out of Murmansk, all the way around Norway and then across the North Sea and around Scotland would be hard to miss. And all of this by a state that is hard put to hold the land they seized in Ukraine and is unable to keep their Syrian safe from constant air attacks by Israel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Very true - but our 'allies', cumulatively, have carried out many many more invasions. Just consider how many countries Britain, the US, Germany, France, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, Portugal ... have invaded down the years. It's hair-raising if you consider it. In fact four of them have invaded Ireland in the past, so you could say they have form!!!😀😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I've answered the bit about the contrails in another post: nobody in Europe is going to allow Russia to overfly them in order to invade Ireland - the sheer volume of planes required to carry the equipment and troops required is mind-boggling when all we would have to do is block the runways of our airports to keep them from landing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Everyone has free reign 12 miles out from our coasts, not just the Russians.

    If we had a government that could negotiate the return of our waters from the EU we might have something worth defending out there.

    I think one of the Brendan Ryans calculated twenty years ago that more fish had been taken out of our waters by our EU partners than had been invested in our infrastructure in the period from when we joined the EEC. That might be a better place to start rather than spending thousands of millions on importing big boys' toys from the USA.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭quokula


    You're expecting the UK to invade? And make themselves complete international pariahs and have themselves booted out of NATO for no particular reason? What an utterly ridiculous notion. Given the opportunity they'd quite gladly offload Northern Ireland, there is absolutely no possible reason for them to ever consider invading. And lets imagine the utterly absurd scenario that they did. If we doubled, tripled, quadrupled our military spending, what would that achieve? There is no possible world where we would outspend the entire United Kingdom, particularly one that had turned so utterly insanely authoritarian and militaristic that is has completely lost its mind and started invading friendly neighbouring countries.

    So increasing our military budget to prepare for this preposterous situation would achieve nothing other than more bloodshed on the way to the inevitable conclusion. The only possible end to this insanely unlikely hypothetical (ignoring the probability of the US and EU getting involved to put a stop to this rogue UK state before it got started) would be a British military victory, followed by a failed occupation and eventual political solution. The size of any Irish armed force at the beginning of the conflict would be pretty irrelevant.



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