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Rugby world cup post mortem

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,099 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    The celebrations after the SA game we’re notable to me, I don’t mean to go all Roy Keane here but the jubilation after that game seemed to be of a team that didn’t expect to win, I think this indicates the mentality that may be missing from an Ireland rugby team, it’s tough to say but if you don’t believe you are going to win then you won’t win.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,799 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Ireland rely on about 20 players performing at their peak to win us big games. Yesterday we lost because some of those players underperformed (Doris, JGP, Sexton, JVDF, Porter gave away penalties and our lineout was a mess) Mack Hansen was clearly injured going in and didn't last the game.

    Instead of having a squad of players Farrell trusted to play an attritional tournament, he went into bunker mode and kept Sexton on the pitch for the full 80 when he could barely run for the last third of the game.

    It is criminal to not use all 23 players in that game if you pretend to be a squad with depth and ambition to win the RWC

    JOB was outstanding when he came on and if we had a boost of energy at 10 off the bench I genuinely think we would have won that game



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 654 ✭✭✭Annabella1


    Fine fine margins

    i probably sound harsh

    The winning of the match was the line out maul with Kelleher held up

    admittedly great defence from NZ but for me our hooker should have exercised better control at the back and planted the ball on the line



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭riddles


    Rabbit in the head lamps start last night created a back foot scenario which generates unforced errors.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭almostover


    If he let Murray have it we'd have walked in a try. Look again at the fringe defence on the maul, Murray just had to flop over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Never wanted us to win as much.. just fell short. That’s top class rugby. So much can come into winning and losing. We had some super play, some ok play, and some poor play; same as NZ. We lost by a single score..it was that tight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭Cill94


    While I think calling Ireland 'bottlers' is disrespectful to the effort put in, I also think it's fair to say that the completely uncharacteristic panic in the first 20 minutes or so really cost them the game.

    If we'd played with the same confidence we had in any other game recently, I wouldn't mind getting bounced out in the quarters by a quality side. It's the fact this team fell foul to the typical quarter final panic and did not do themselves justice at all.

    So many uncharacteristic errors that I'd not seen us make in ages. Terrible breakdown speed, silly forced passes, isolated ball carriers, scrum malfunctioning etc. The Will Jordan try was so soft.

    Credit to New Zealand for playing out of their skin and implementing a very smart strategy all the same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,022 ✭✭✭sReq | uTeK


    Keeping sexton on for sentimental reasons was criminal. When he tried that chip pass you could tell he was gone. We needed fresh legs. But my god the errors they gave up. Shocking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,741 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Still hurts this morning , scolling through here , shows the exteme , from smug Eire jibes to looking for a re-match - we came close , but many players looked below par, eraly on I questioned playing a near starting 15 in every pool games - Van der Flier, Furlong , Beirne looked over cooked - regarding Sexton, been an unbelievable 10 for 14 years, but Farrell hould have given Crowley 15 minutes last night, might not have changed, but maybe it might, a very tight game.

    The players gave everything, and they will hurt so bad, for so long, hard to know how they get up agaiin, even winning the 6 Nations will feal hollow.

    Players of the game - the Barrett brothers Savia and Bundee.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,440 ✭✭✭Cill94


    Players of the game - the Barrett brothers Savia and Bundee.

    Not to mention Sam Cane. The shift he put in was incredible. Will have shut up some of the embarassing punditry comments about him on Off The Ball recently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,199 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A management team is not just for Christmas.

    They'll show their mettle now. Pick them up dust them down and prep/motivate them for the next time.

    The games systems/structures are healthy here. That will now stand to us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,660 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    That's just your mentality and a lot of fans in a fairy land. It means very little in reality that teams of the past also lost in QF. It's just an anomaly. Anyone who says otherwise may as well believe in Peter Pan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,741 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    dont watch OTB no more, smug know all presenters, who dont know as much as they think , all about dramatics .

    If only for that tackle on Keenan, I could feal the hit in Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭Rugbymad2020


    So in a game between Nz and Ireland only NZ born players scored tries



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭OldRio


    'Even winning the six nations will feel hollow'???

    No just nó. Ireland lost last night. The past is the past. Life moves on. New opportunities exist. When you look at some of the other Unions we're in a good place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭Rugbymad2020


    Maybe it’s time Ireland actually sit down and draw up a plan and build depth.home grown depth as this Irish team can’t honestly compete with NZ,SA,Fr,England in a 2month tournament



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 247 ✭✭Tweeter




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,939 ✭✭✭Russman


    Not a rugby expert by any mean, but as a fan, its very frustrating to lose to an outfit that (despite not showing it) we're actually IMO considerably better than. By the time the next chance rolls round that won't be the case anymore, they'll have their act together and we'll be minus a number of generational players that won't be easily replaced with our small playing pool. Can only put it down to some mental thing on the big occasion why we didn't turn up last night. Really annoying that we didn't put them to to the sword. but hey ho, it is what it is, nobody died. Really hope SA or France do them in the final though.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,741 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    Thats how it feals today , its about 15 years ago when winning a triple crown was the big thing - we need to think bigger , our record in knockout rugby is shocking and needs to be addressed, we have done everything else , and I agree rugby is in a god place in Ireland, but for me we need to focus on WC 2027 , and how we can win knockout rugby , maybe this new World tournament will help.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭OldRio


    We were beat last night by very small margins. It had nothing to do with our other past defeats in the World Cup. Non. Zilch. 4 fecking points after going down 13 níl.

    We've talent coming through at underage. Retirements make opportunitys. Let's enjoy the journey.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,741 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    We have been to 10 world cups and never won a knockout game , ther is a mental scar from the past , Argentina have had 3 semi finals.

    I agree with your last point , but the dreadfull record in knockout rugby needs to be addressed, as it will be



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I hope NZ go on to win it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Sorry but I don't agree. That defeat yesterday had nothing to do with what happened in the past.

    We were beat by a better team on the day. If we grasp that we can improve. If we believe what happened 20 or more years ago effected yesterday result we are in serious trouble.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,199 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    People talking about a Six Nations GS feeling 'hollow' are just talking too soon.

    Come the Six Nations we will be back in the land of hope and speculation.

    A GS will feel just like they always feel.

    If we didn't pick ourselves up and go again the soccer team supporters would never even get out of bed. They do, again and again and the rugby supporters will be no different.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭Coolcormack1979


    At the end of the day ,the team of us choked again when it really was needed.yes they tried but at the end of the day they achieved sfa



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,734 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    I know nothing about rugby and all I watched of this RWC was the last 20 minutes of the game last night.

    And one thing that I am noticing in this thread is that it's very like what we Mayo people say after an All Ireland final loss.

    The consolation that it's small margins, which is true, but what I also notice is the idea that what happened in previous years has no bearing on what just happened.

    I'll argue that it does.

    What happened last night?

    Ireland lost the game narrowly and the overall reaction was that NZ were just better, and Ireland were unlucky, and that they had a great tournament besides and there is always next time.

    So because Ireland have always fallen at this hurdle, falling at it again is not that big a deal, the ground work for the disappointment has already been done by previous teams through the years

    These guys are no different than the same guys in 1991.

    So players come into the game knowing that losing now is nothing new, or special, or that they won't go down in history for losing now.

    And I think that is in the players heads, somewhere.

    Now look at it from the NZ point of view.

    If they lost that match they would go down in history as the first NZ side to get knocked out at this stage, that would weight heavy on the players.

    So what went before does have an effect, when a player is on that field looking for that something inside him to put in the extra effort but struggling to find it, somewhere inside him is also the knowledge that not finding it and losing now will not single him or the team out in the big picture of Irish RWC performances.

    Post edited by Fr Tod Umptious on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭hawley


    Probably the worst loss in the history of Irish sport. Added to the fact that we'll never see the likes of Johnny Sexton again. Am more down today than last night. Strange atmosphere in the air in town this morning. Like someone died.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    New Zealand lost in quarters in 2007 so would have been same as then. I see where you are coming from. of course what went before will play a role. natural but how do we change it? Thats the million dollar question....

    Thats a bit OTT. Wouldnt say worst loss in history irish sport but yeah very disappointing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,199 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Why wouldn't we see the likes of Sexton again? The system and structure that produced him are only getting better.

    There is every chance we will see someone as good. We may not see a player last as long as him though because new talent will come for his position quicker.,



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,786 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    So for next WC we will lose the following:

    Earls, Sexton, Healy, Kilcoyne, Bealham, Herring, Beirne?(35), Furlong?(34), Lowe, McCloskey, Henshaw, Aki, Gibson Park, Murray, POM, Conan, JVDF

    That a lot of players to replace over the next few years. The front row is going to see huge change



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    We will def lose many you name but Furlong at 34 should be fine if stays fit. tighthead props can stay on bit older than many other positions. same with Beirne. Henshaw should be ok. VDF. Same.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,673 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    He shouldn’t be. He doesn’t and hasn’t had the confidence to take shots at goal and goes to the sideline by default partly to cover up that deficiency. He should have been subbed last night and arguably should have been replaced year ago. He’s not and never has been that good to be irreplaceable. He also got away with going to France for a year when guys like Zeno were banished. It’s good that he has retired at last and it should have happened years ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,673 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    No they don’t. New Zealand were there for the taking but Ireland bottled it. The scrum, the line out and an over the hill at number 10 caught up with them. Despite all those self inflicted deficiencies we nearly won because this All Black team were there for the taking and will be beaten by France or South Africa in the final.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,673 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    Definitely lots to work on but important they don’t become too reliant on certain individuals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 180 ✭✭benjy1000


    Big clear out needed.

    Not good enough



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,408 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Yep well the team will be in transition. Younger talent needs to be brought through. We're going to lose games for as long as it takes to bring through a new group of players. It's the same in all team sport though. Players retire.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,673 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    We also beat ourselves. On the Virgin Media panel they were saying we only needed to bring 95% to win which was a strange comment. Joe Molloy asked at the end what percentage did we bring and the answer was 75%. So on the biggest World Cup day for this team they didn’t bring their A game and let the occasion get the better of them. Very disappointing as Ireland may never get a better chance. Poor stuff especially in the line out where they were forewarned by South Africa. Ridiculous really that they didn’t rectify that and then compounded it with poor scrummaging.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Clear out of who and replace them with who?

    What else would you change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,673 ✭✭✭TheCitizen


    He wasn’t that good and was there too long and other out half’s had their development stunted. He can be replaced no problem and should have been at least 4 years ago.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    At least 4 years ago. Please stop. thats just ridiculous and cant be backed up with anything close to reality.

    he was that good and the others development was stunted by their own ability as much/more than JS



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭OldRio




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,593 ✭✭✭funkey_monkey


    A golden opportunity lost. Get past NZ and the semi final was a gift at this level.

    In 4 years time England will be back. NZ will be better, Wales should improve and Scotland are improving too. Australia won't be a mess either. It will be so much harder to win.

    We'll not enter the next world Cup as No. 1 and favourites.

    The annoying thing is that it just wasn't blind faith - Ireland truly had a good chance of being world champions.

    However, they really were not at the races during this tournament and got lucky against SA whose kicking was dreadful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,734 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    but how do we change it? Thats the million dollar question....

    I think one way to try and address it is unfortunately to be harsher on the players for not performing.

    Ask them tough questions, dispens with the talk about being proud of them.

    This Irish team were the best positioned ever to get past the quarter finals, so them losing should be different from other losing Irish team.

    They really need to be made stand out from the others for their failure last night.

    Because there is a flip side to all this, if they can get over the idea that losing is not a big deal and find the extra something to win then they become legends.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not a chance, Schmidt had his homework done at the breakdown & rucks. they had a game plan to go through phases & starve Ireland’s ball.

    Every New Zealand player had a minimum 9/10 performance & was probably the best they have played in year’s. They were so much fresher also,nearly a month to prepare.

    And we still nearly got there in the end. heroic from those men in green, compared to that utter shower of wasters that played in the Aviva on Friday night.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭omerin


    Didn't protect the ball, nervous start, but NZ had that too, kept Sexton on far too long, not bringing on Crowley was criminal, even to put him at FB, Keegan was bleeding and had played all minutes, in general, tired players - poor player management and a lack of faith in the squad. Sheehan's throwing, few seemed to lack any pace and just lobs. Surprised in the forwards there was no "leader" talking to the ref about lineout infringements (he spoke to irish once about gap) and the scrum. if Ryan or a forward, is to be the new captain, might be for the best.


    For all that, it's just a game of rugby, far more depressing things going on, let's move on from this



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,188 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Now ye lad can have a pop at me as I am a blow in and don't post around here very often, if at all on boards anymore.

    But I think Ireland most especially Farrell and his backroom team got things wrong in this world cup.

    This is not a great All Blacks team and this was Ireland's best ever team, World No.1 on 17 game winning streak.

    We were always told it was because we had lack of depth and that when we lost front line players the other guys weren't good enough as reason for losing 1/4 finals and yes it was true to a huge degree in certain WC where we lost key players in tough matches beforehand.

    But who was missing for last night?

    Ryan, although he wasn't doing great anyway, and Hansen probably shouldn't have been even on the pitch.

    We are supposed to have strength in depth so please explain why it was almost a full 1st team against Romania.

    Romania FFS.

    You don't get SA, NZ or France doing that.

    The team against Romania were:

    15 Hugo Keenan, 14 Keith Earls, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 James Lowe, 10 Johnny Sexton (c), 9 Jamison Gibson-Park; 1 Andrew Porter, 2 Rob Herring, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 4 Joe McCarthy, 5 James Ryan, 6 Tadhg Beirne, 7 Peter O'Mahony, 8 Caelan Doris.

    Earls, Herring and McCarthy were the only 2nd string.

    Yeah play Sexton because he is just back, but FFS it was Romania.

    Then against Tonga we had a few changes simply because guys were back from injuries.

    15 Hugo Keenan, 14 Hansen, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 James Lowe, 10 Johnny Sexton (c), 9 C. Murray, 1 Andrew Porter, 2 R. Kelleher, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 4 Tadhg Beirne, 5 James Ryan, 6 Peter O'Mahony, 7 J. Van Der Flier, 8 Caelan Doris.

    Not enough rotation.

    Last night a lot of guys just looked tired and well below par.

    The summation has to be that Ireland don't know how to play in tournaments.


    Some will say ah great we got within 4 points of All Blacks and beat the Boks so we did well.

    That is settling.

    We scraped past the Boks who if they had a half decent kicker would have beaten us.

    The lineout was a mess and it was not resolved or even a real plan B go to in place for the All Blacks.

    Yeah yeah people could argue that the gap wasn't there, the ref wasn't doing his job, etc, but there was still a fair bit of non functioning.


    Then as for the game itself last night, Hanson was played when he looked doubtful, Sexton was left on the pitch when a change might have brought something different.

    Maybe he was left on for sentiment, but sentiment has no place in professional sport.

    Just ask O'Gara.

    Maybe ranking points in 6 nations and autumn internationals should be sacrificed in order to built better strength in depth?

    Being World's no.1 means nothing it you can't get anywhere in a WC.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I assume the coaches thought they needed to get players up to speed so had to play them against Romania. A world cup required peaking at time of year we never have to in any other season.

    Lots saying its not a great New Zealand team. yes compared to their best but its still New Zealand. who have winning record against every team in the world with

    We did scrape past South Africa but in what world was a win over them going to be anything but a close one like the result a few weeks back.

    We did build strength in depth over the last few years. look at number of players capped, used across multiple games. and we won as well.

    we lost out last night in a close game to a top side. no shame in that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 140 ✭✭crackity_jones




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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Will you stop with the strength in depth nonsense. The poster above you just named the teams that started against Romania and Tonga, and they were near full strength. If we had strength in depth the full squad would have been used more often throughout the tournament.

    Andy Farrell was asked did Mack Hansen step out of line and get dropped when he wasn't named to face Romania. That is how predictable his team is. This is the same style of picking a team that Declan Kidney got rightly slated for. A favoured 23 and everyone else can hold tackle bags.

    Dave Kilcoyne and Jack Crowley were making up numbers on a bench last night. Farrell clearly thought a shattered 38 year old Sexton was the better option to chase the game in the final 10 minutes, and this is because he never developed a proper back up.

    Fail to prepare and prepare to fail.



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