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Is the present FF/FG/GP government the worst in the history of the state?

  • 04-10-2023 5:31pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    An incredible housing/rental crisis, emigration back for all ages with a vengeance, record tax receipts but a shortage of vital public servants like nurses, doctors and teachers, Gardaí effectively going on strike, basically no immigration policy, taxpayers money used to fund NGOs who agree with government policy only, crime not taken seriously especially in Dublin, seriously incompetent politicians at the heart of government & justice, . . . .

    I have never known anything like the general malaise that exists in Ireland at present.

    So is the present FF/FG/GP government the worst in the history of the state?



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    With full employment, the highest ever tax returns in the history of the state and better job prospects for the population than we have ever known.

    The answer to your question. No.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,544 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    Absolutely not. Things are generally in a much better state than in the 70s and 80s. Compared to many countries we are faring as well as, and often better, than many countries. It's no utopia but it could be and has been worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,944 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    100% Yes.

    The tax take is solely down to MNCs availing of our tax haven and UK leaving EU. Nothing to do with this government's policy.

    The amount of tax money FFG have wasted over the years. This country could be so so much better. Just look for example at the Health System and a long overdue Children's Hospital with no known final cost.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Highest ever tax returns yet what do we get in return? Over 1 million people are paying the highest rate of tax (50%+) after just €40,000 (the lowest threshold in the western world). . . . No wonder such a boast exists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    In the 70s and 80s things were bad, for sure. . . . and you can go back further when the state was in its infancy. Yet then we were a country with very limited resources and still could produce affordable housing for instance for a huge number of people. Fast forward to the 2020s and this is a government which boasts of record tax receipts, full employment and yet celebrates 80,000 young people forced to leave Ireland over the past three years simply because a similar number immigrated (i.e. older people)?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Jack98


    Would be surprised If anywhere near 10% of those 80k don’t return there is a housing crisis in every developed economy we as a nation flock to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    You get one of the highest standards of living on the planet.

    So, there is that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    That's all relative. Even in brexit Britain this could be claimed. Besides such a claim could have been made 30 or 40 years ago......so hardly an achievement from the present government.

    Are we getting value for our money from this government?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    The fact the MNCs are here is very much because of govt policy.

    Our very low corporation tax rate, coupled with our willingness to invest in FDI & to nurture it so effectivley over these last few decades.

    Things aren't perfect in Ireland, but the job market for such a small country is absolutley exceptional & it almost certainly will never get better than where we are today.

    The govt over the past 20 yrs have got many things wrong, but employment and job opportunities are gold standard.

    Enjoy & capitalise on those employment opportunities whilst we have them would be my advice to anyone in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    I'm not old enough to remember the 80s, but I am sure some posters here could put a perspective on what life was like then.

    I don't think many of them would choose to swap our standard of living for what we had back then.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,544 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    You're only looking at one issue. Overall it's hugely better now. Did you have to pay the mortgage rates of the 80s? Housing was not universally affordable at all.





  • Wouldn’t it be a great country we had if grown ups acted like grown ups?

    as opposed to what we have at the moment which is a bunch of whingers who blame everyone but themselves when things aren’t going their way.

    if you can’t afford to rent or buy a house that’s not the governments problem. It’s not mine, or the guy down the streets problem either.

    but regardless of that they do an awful lot to help, there’s HAP, rent allowance, RPZ’s etc. I’ve said it before but it would be a cold day in hell before the government had any notions of capping rents. That’ll go down well alright,

    ”ok landlord, you can only charge up to €XYZ a month for this house”

    ”selling the fcuker so”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,944 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    What did this government achieve? What new policy? What vision? What legislation? What reform? Since 2020.

    The hard working people of Ireland have brought us a successful economy.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,481 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    He is asking about the present Government. The policies to attract MNCs have long been in place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    A successful economy enabled by successful govt employment policy, which in turn delivers those very jobs that make the economy succesful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Jack98


    If you watched upfront Monday night there was a couple aged 26/27 who had the harrowing experience of saving for 3 years living at home, had to move outside dublin a travesty and by some miracle managed to be home owners at that age… It is doable people are just unwilling to sacrifice they’re comforts for a few years they prefer to moan and were handed things too easy all the way up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    It is the responsibility of government to provide affordable housing for all of its citizens - in fact it is one of the most basic responsibilities. The last thing we need on here is another whinging landlord.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,496 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    worst government, didn't one recently end up with the imf coming in.





  • Right and you’d like them to just wave the wand and build the houses yeah? Not as though there’s a housing plan for 2030 already, nor schemes readily available for first time buyers etc. sounds to me like you’re expecting the government to start telling estate agents what to charge for their houses

    im not a landlord I’m a renter, actually, but nice one.

    edit: also sorry but since when is it any governments responsibility to ensure the government provides all citizens with “affordable” housing? It’s also funny that you ignored all examples of them doing exactly that, regardless of responsibility.

    Council houses & several housing charities exist in Ireland

    Rent supplement

    HAP scheme

    Help to buy

    Like it sounds to me like you expect the government to start offering mortgages and deposit free purchases.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,904 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Where did you get the notion that it’s the government’s responsibility to provide affordable housing for everyone?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Article 25 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Of course there are many Paddies who are now so rich that they consider housing to be a commodity like oil, coffee or metals.

    What's more this is a responsibility which previous Irish governments (broke ones it has to be said) took very very seriously indeed. If you want to refuse housing as a government's responsibility then you might as well declare that sanitation or provision of water is not required at all. Now I know this is the belief of the Reaganite/Thatcherite neo-liberalist tories on boards.ie who all get a serious boner when it comes to ripping people off on housing but there needs to be some objectivity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Something does not add up with your numbers...The highest tax rate is 52% (income tax + PRSI + USC), this kicks in for a single person at earnings over €70k. At just over €40k you would be paying 48.5% (income + PRSI + USC), not 50%+. I have not included any tax credits that most people get, which would reduce the overall number.





  • So you’re going to ignore all the housing provisions we have available then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Previous governments had magic wands and no money. . . . Where do you think places like Cabra, Kimmage, Tallaght, Crumlin etc. . . all came from?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Provisions like HAP are used to direct money into the pockets of landlords. HAP shouldn't exist as it artificially increases rental prices for those who cannot afford them. It is a total scam - a scam not available to the "squeezed middle" this govt likes to pretend they care about but do nothing for. Also provisions are a total irrelevance if there's a massive housing shortage with not enough getting built. . . and that is definitely the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭Tork


    No government starts with a clean slate. Instead, they have to pick up and work with what was left to them by the previous government. And remnants of the one before that and before that and so on. If I was to point a finger at governments that did us a lot of harm, it was those Bertie Ahern Fianna Fail governments of the noughties. The effects of the housing bubble they whipped up are still being felt today. We went from one extreme (building increasingly expensive houses, even in areas where they weren't needed) to an almightly building crash and almost nothing being built. If we'd kept going at a slower steady pace, maybe things would be better now.

    The IMF coming in, and the ensuing cuts in pay for public servants is something else that resonates to this day. We're training up doctors and nurses only to see them emigrate to countries where their pay is better and they have a better chance of somewhere to live.

    I think the people who believe a Sinn Féin government will solve everything are going to be sorely disappointed. Already they're rowing back on their promises and talking about things needing two terms to be sorted. Much as we'd like all the housing, healthcare, crime etc. issues to be sorted, they're so knotty and difficult to sort, I don't think anybody can do it easily.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    I'd say things are pretty good atm. Housing is most definitely improving. I can see it everywhere. It would be a travesty if this government wasn't reelected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    A single person reaches the highest rate of tax (40%) at €40000 (not including the other deductions).

    This is immoral and is tantamount to state theft.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    "The IMF coming in, and the ensuing cuts in pay for public servants is something else that resonates to this day."

    Those cuts resonate to this day because that is the CHOICE of the present govt. The post 2011 IMF FG/LAB govt can legitimately argue that they had no choice. The present government cannot and prefer to see people do without services that they're paying for.





  • You’re some man 😂

    so HAP, which helps poorer people afford to rent, is a scam?

    So what’s the alternative then? Honestly I can’t wait to hear it.

    As for building houses where would you like them to go? same goes for the materials and contractors where will they be gotten at such scale?

    And lastly where will this money come from?

    See you have a lot to whinge about and decry but very little in the way of effective solutions other than “affordable housing for everyone!”

    You sound like PFP or one of them. Plenty to whinge about but scarce any useful solutions or ideas.





  • “Tax people less but build more houses!”

    jesus you’re a dreamer mate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Well if HAP didn't exist rents wouldn't be as high. I think that is fairly obvious. Cui bono re HAP?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,258 ✭✭✭nachouser


    Well, no they did not have magic wands. They were built up piece by piece when property prices were very low in our terms and the locals were shooing off cattle from their garden. In Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    WTF?... you are complaining about a lack of public housing, the government should be providing affordable housing for all....but you also call tax immoral and theft....where does the money come from then?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    I never called tax immoral or theft. I called taking 40% of a single person's wage after €40000 to be immoral/theft. For the government to then boast about record tax receipts is then quite something. . . especially when they have spent 500 million more than the total cost of building the Burj Khalifa in Dubai to build one hospital and it is still not completed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    Get real will you, you called the the 40% tax rate immoral and tantamount to theft. you are contradicting yourself and presenting incorrect numbers as fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,944 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    So you have nothing tangible. I can list a lot of their initiatives that have utterly failed.

    I heard a good one this morning. The government announced a year ago they are going to put solar panels on all schools. Progress to date? Zero schools.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,061 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    I called that tax rate at €40000+ to be immoral or theft .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,145 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Not worse than the government that crashed us in 2008 but with the party that led that government now in power with the opposition that cheerled them over the edge, probably the 2nd worst. Enda Kenny’s one that conned everybody with promise of reform after the crash coming in 3rd.



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  • What? Please explain how HAP has caused high rents exactly?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,944 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    They promised us New Politics in 2011 but the 2015 public service reform bill is still stalled and the TDs/Councillors are as corrupt as ever.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,703 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    Not event the worst government this century

    "What IMF" saaid these clowns, as the IMF were already in the country. And that was less than 15 years ago, that we (as a country) have rebounded in relatively short period of time is remarkable.

    Have a look at Greece (which all the SF/PBP types said we should follow) as an example of how not to do it.





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,201 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    I listed some in earlier posts, but the bottom line is that ireland has one of the highest standards of living in the world, has full employment, exceptional job opportunities and one of the highest personal savings rates on the planet.

    Most people (largely anyone that has a mortgage or owns their own home) are doing very well financially and although you are right that there are plenty of areas for improvement, the living standards for most people in ireland are exceptionally high.

    If there are no solar panels on the local school roof, people will still have a good standard of living.

    Most people holiday abroad every year, often 2 or 3 times. Bars, Restaurants, shops and cafes packed in Dublin most nights of the week. never mind the weekend.

    Lots of people with lots of money and lots of job opportunites for people to join them living the high life, if people are so inclined.

    Its not an excuse in ireland to say people cant earn good money and do well for themselves.

    Put the work in and the opportunities are there.

    Most countries do not afford those opportunities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,145 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is one topic where deflection to party’s who never were in government is fairly pathetic tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,544 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    And, to go back to your own OP comparing this government historically, tax rates had been higher and allowances/credits lower for decades under successive governments. Maybe you need to rephrase the OP to fit the narrative you followed up with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,476 ✭✭✭Tork


    So where would all of this extra money come from? If the government decided to pay nurses and teachers and gardai more money, every other public servant in the country would stick their hand up and look for a pay rise as well. It's easy to say on Boards that a garda is more valuable than a clerical worker in the HSE but real life doesn't work that way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,944 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I have a very good job and mortgage almost paid off. However I do not accept mediocre in my life as readily as you do and I not credit the power swap charade with my success (I did vote FG for 20 years thinking they were honest). Come back to me when the trolley crisis is fixed, when waiting lists are reduced to decent levels, when housing and rentals are affordable for young people, when Irish nurses stop leaving for better work practices and standards of living, when public service corruption reform legislation is passed, when our children get better physical and mental health services, when we hit climate "plan" targets and aren't the worst country in EU for emissions per capita, when the whole country has decent broadband, when the Gardai is properly resourced and effective, when our justice system is fit for purpose, when our national broadcaster provides a service that is value for money, when we have a public transport system to be proud of, when we have a decent water/sewerage system and clean rivers/lakes etc etc etc. They have failed utterly in all the basics.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,944 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I mean this is just today's news

    No schools fitted with solar panels a year on from climate announcement (irishexaminer.com)

    Not one school has yet been fitted with solar panels a year on from when the €50m climate action scheme was first announced, the Oireachtas education committee has heard.

    They have lots of so called plans but nothing gets delivered.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    So who have you voted for to resolve these issues?



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