Is the present FF/FG/GP government the worst in the history of the state?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223584#Comment_121223584

We as a country need to stop running after Europe and look after our own interest while staying in Europe. We should be growing our own produce as much as possible. That wil save CO2 from not importing.

We should create as much renewable energy because we don't have large supplies of gas or oil. SO we can control our own pricing etc

We can do lots of project which will reduce CO2 but be of benefit to the people of Ireland. Upgrading houses makes sense but also reduces Co2. Building public transport makes sense because it is easier for companies to base themselves outside major cities and helps with tourism.

gormdubhgorm

The views of the electorate do not stack up to the OP's premise currently -

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/10/06/stephen-collins-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-supporters-have-bonded-in-the-face-of-a-common-foe-sinn-fein/

"Despite its status as the most popular party, Sinn Féin’s path to power will be an extremely difficult one to negotiate unless it gets enough seats to form a government with the support of small left-wing parties and individuals. With less than 40 per cent of the electorate declaring support for Sinn Féin and its left-wing allies such an outcome seems very unlikely.

The point is reinforced by the fact that less than 40 per cent of the electorate expressed support for “radical change”. The corollary is that TDs representing the other 60 per cent plus of the electorate will almost certainly have the numbers to form a centrist government."

--

As other posters have rightly pointed out Ireland has now close to full employment peace on the island, a highly educated workforce. A lot of foreign direct investment driving the economy. While other countries in Europe have extremes of left or right. Ireland is stable politically and has never had as much soft power in the EU as an English speaking nation, particularly because the UK's absence from the EU. Also Ireland has never been as liberal a country in it's history, Gay Marriage, Divorce. It has many other nationalities looking to start a new life in Ireland, freedom of religion and so on. Ukrainians seek sanctuary here from their war ravaged country.

Currently immigration to Ireland has not been as high since the Celtic Tiger.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2023/09/25/highest-immigration-since-celtic-tiger-pushes-state-population-to-almost-53m/

If Ireland was such a terrible country why do so many people seek out a new life here from other countries?

To me the future looks bright. A stable government can only help this, which is what the current government are. It is what the electorate want.

To me the OP's premise is based less in fact. A thread built built more on hyperbole, driven ideologically, and the implicit hope of 'change' whatever that means to the OP.

Then there also is the fact that historically there have been governments in 'the history of the Irish state' that have really struggled.

1922 - 1927 - WT Cosgrave inherited a country ravaged by Civil war, destroyed mentally, and economically. Cosgrave had to navigate all of this. While keeping the Irish state together while trying to stop subversives from destroying the state. Job achieved but it was touch and go for while.

1932 - 1944 - De Valera got in on populism - the promise of housing and so on similar to a certain opposition parties promises now. However, De Valera was instrumental in the Irish Constitution. Of which is based a system of jurisprudence which stands the test of time today.

But overall that government was isolationist, really tied to the Catholic Church and oversaw mass emigration. A lot would argue that the Irish state was put backwards by this period.

1948 - coalition government under Costello - did one major thing moving towards a modern Ireland away from the blinkered past - Ireland was officially declared a Republic.

Then there was some political instability until 1957 where the governments did not last long, the electorate was unsure what it wanted

1957 - 1961 - Lemass opened the country up and as a consequence set Ireland on the path to improve.

1969 - 1973 - Jack Lynch a short tenure but a crucial one in preventing the break up of the state from subversives. And presided over Ireland joining the EU

Then after a short stint of a Cosgrave FG - Labour coalition the electorate were undecided in a period of economic turmoil - 1977 - 1987. A hokey hokey between Fitzgerald and Haughey.

From 1987 - 1989 Haughey's FF was at it's peak.

And as FF slowly distanced itself from Haughey in the 90’s - Reynolds was instrumental in the beginnings of the peace process so that is marked up as a great achievement for me.

John Bruton and Dick Spring were not in government long enough to affect any real change in my view.

But ia contender for the worst government in the history of the state was one of the most populist ones during the Celtic Tiger 1997 - 2007. Where the government took it's eye off the ball completely and there were no checks and balances

1997 - 2007 - When you look at what the government were at then splashing the cash, free for all budgets, poor regulation, little restraint and checks and balances. In hindsight it set Ireland up for the fall.

2007 - 2011 - Cowen was all at sea with global economic crash trying his best to stop the country from economic collapse. I am surprised he lasted as long as he did.

2011 - to present - Successive governments got Ireland 'back on track'.

It seems with the last budget hard lessons from the past have been learnt. Prudence and stability is the way forward for Ireland.

However, it does worry me that a young electorate not familiar with Ireland's past will again look towards a populist giveaway government. Which could set Ireland back from all the good progress that has been made in the last decade.

To me that Celtic Tiger period of governance was the worst government, the checks and balances were lost. There was little accountability and prudence. I hope that subsequent governments will maintain this stability. But I fear a new kid on the block, based on ideology more than practicality, could undo the current stable Republic of Ireland as we know it.

I would say to those who want 'radical change' - careful what you wish for....

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223318#Comment_121223318

The fines will come, dont worry about that.

And working towards the Paris agreement hasnt worked as we are still well off target.

So when the carrot doesnt work, the stick is the next option and that will come in the way of fines at a global level. Not just for ireland.

Remember the govt can also use the stick by reducing farm subsidies. Why should the govt pay a farm to miss its targets?

Imagine Farm A manages to reduce emissions and Farm B does not, the govt will need to incentivise Farm B to behave like Farm A.

We can offset emissions by planting trees etc, sure. But we still need to reduce the cause of the emissions.

Reduce emissions AND plant trees, operate more efficently etc.

We do need investment in public transpot, I agree, but not sure what that has to do Agri emissions.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223771#Comment_121223771

The fines won't come and if the best people can come up is idle threats you won't get very far. Think of Irish Water etc.

I am talking about project, an overall project for Ireland. It seems a few people can't get the big picture of what we should do and fall from one topic to another. Usually never finishing the first project.

Food supply is critical, not sure why anyone would want to lose control over food supply. How exactly are you going to measure the exact CO2 from one farm to another?

Pointless reducing CO2 if you can't take CO2 out of atmosphere.

Again the bigger picture, so we keep national herd as is but use the poo to create methane which in turn reduce the requirement for gas for electricity and also gives us more control over our electric grid, while planting trees in areas, Irish trees, which will suck CO2 out of the atmosphere. So you maybe haven't reduced the creation of Co2 but you have actually reduced the overall CO2 because of the tree's, the grass etc. Then stop all importing of meat and again that reduces CO2 more, the ships which transport meat are huge creators of CO2.

Also why do we have stores full of produce from all over the World? why do we have stores full of produce in plastic? etc etc.

Vision is what we need, not pick a industry and blame them, once you have it destroyed who do you move onto next?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223871#Comment_121223871

Irish water is irrelevant here.

This is a global project. Ireland doesnt have a choice as far as the international fines are concerned.

Methane is a gas and is one of the worst contributors to CO2! Producing more of it isnt going to help anyone.

If we ban all imports to reduce CO2, will we also ban all exports?

Coolcormack1979

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223584#Comment_121223584

I don’t want subsidies for doing my job.I just want a decent price for my milk.not the highs of last yr and not the lows of 20 cents a litre.

I didn’t expand beyond my limit of land and more importantly being able to manage what I have.

you think I should be able to grow vegetables for myself.no offence I know about cows and no sweet feck all about any forms of tillage /horticulture or your other suggestions of getting poultry or pigs.

this fairytale of farming back in the 50’s will never happen and in time governments all over the world will be looking for food

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223935#Comment_121223935

You can repeat fines all you want, it's a nonsense and Ireland shouldn't pay a penny. If the government does it should be fired on the spot. Fines are fired out all the times on discussions like this, heard it all before. At this stage shouldn't Ireland have already paid billions in fines? along with every other country in Europe

You failed to see the bigger picture. I tried and you failed so not much point trying to explain again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223940#Comment_121223940

Exactly, people are basing their opinions on what they pay for milk/butter etc in the shops. But the majority of that goes to the shop and the disty etc. Not the farmer.

Then we have people complaining about CO2 and it's just the latest industry to get attacked. Once they go after the farmer, then it will be building or something else. All while never looking at the bigger picture of how to achieve the goals while keeping Ireland a competitive and sustainable country.

Wait till we start seeing people talking about electric tractors, f**king ridiculous to generate the amount of CO2 for an electric tractor when a diesel tractor will last for years and yes it omits Co2 but over the lifespan of the vehicle and what it does the effect on the planet is minimal, especially when you compared what has to be done to create an electric tractor which will be next to useless for most tasks

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223940#Comment_121223940

So you dont recieve any subsidies or govt aid for farming?

A fair price for your milk is extrapolated from the price people are willing to pay.

Plentiful product equals lower price point.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224414#Comment_121224414

I think its yourself failing to see the bigger picture to be fair.

If we ban all beef imports, ireland will have to reduce its production down to about 10 or 15% of what it is now, as it will only be servicing the domestic market.

Granted, that will help hit our emissions targets of course, but how would we deliver 15% of output & still maintain all the farms we have today?

Surely a lot of beef farms would have to close or diversify.

Jack98

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224663#Comment_121224663

Ban imports from external markets means banning imports from South America markets etc, we service our market the single market EU.

You surely understand this?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224710#Comment_121224710

Poster said ban exports to reduce transport emissions. That would apply to everyone exporting.

He didnt specify SA or any other region.

Jack98

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224737#Comment_121224737

I’m sure he was getting at SA etc as we export 90% of what we produce.

If SF get in they will not be anti export anyway there views on the green agenda are fairly minimal there budget proposals included very little put aside for nature restoration etc compared to what to government implemented.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224763#Comment_121224763

He mentioned ships, so all imports as far as I can tell. I dont think he cares too much for the EU anyway :)

Its not up to the irish Govt to decide what our climate targets should be and if exports stay as they are then emissions will stay too high.

Whether its SF, FFG or the Smurfs in charge, the international targets are fixed and they will hit us regardless.

So any irish govt will have to hit the targets.

Coolcormack1979

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224647#Comment_121224647

What I get is very small in a single farm payment since at the time it was calculated in 2002 the farm was a very different place to where it is now.

again you haven’t a clue on the price of milk you buy in a shop and what I get.I’m getting this yr about 37 cents a litre versus €2.10 in the shop for your 2 litre bottle.and get over what people are willing to pay.rubbish.the shops decide what u pay.

when milk was 20 cents a litre it was still multiple times the price in the shops.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224942#Comment_121224942

its all still linked to the price that is paid in the shop. The price people are willing to pay.

If that 2.10 is for 2 litres & you get 37 cent, how is the rest made up?

Processors etc i mean.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224795#Comment_121224795

I like the EU, but that doesn't mean we have to dance to their tune. The so called international targets mean nothing, just threats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224663#Comment_121224663

Not sure you understand the current import/export of meat from/into Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224647#Comment_121224647

Again you don't seem to understand who is making the profit on milk. The majority of the profit is flowing to the supermarket and the disty. The farm is earning very little of the profit. I seen a graphic before but can't find now. Plenty of info if you google on the web in terms of what makes up the price of a ltr of milk.

It has nothing to do with plentiful product.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224964#Comment_121224964

The threats will progress into fines.

I understand import/export just fine, but you cant have a rule that says no country other than Ireland can export.

That would be ludicrous.

Its the EU that keeps your farm in business via tax payer subsidies, so you do owe them something to be fair.

I understand the supermarkets and processers take a share of the product sale, but they are also part of the value chain.

If what they did was so simple, why are you selling to them in the first place? Nobody forces you to do that.

The fact that you are talking about beef and milk etc, which are very common and plentiful products, gives the farmer less bargaining power in terms of share of sale price.

If you dont sell it to them, the next farm will. It all links back to oversupply in the end.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224964#Comment_121224964

I like the EU, but that doesn't mean we have to dance to their tune.

It's not "their tune", it is the law.

Jack98

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225160#Comment_121225160

You were on the farming side of boards a few days back saying you were from a farm, if that’s the case you’d know a lot of dairy farmers have very minimal single farm payments and don’t depend on subsidies to survive.

Why have you such a set against farmers now if you were reared on a farm you can surely acknowledge the work farmers put in and the work they are actively doing to engage in environmental measures that haven’t been yet given a chance to bear fruit?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225222#Comment_121225222

I am certainly not against farmers and do appreciate its a very tough job.

But I do think there are too many farms producing too much produce (more cows than people in this country) and it has a significant effect on our climate targets which arent going to go away.

We cant continue as we are basically.

Jack98

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225281#Comment_121225281

Farmers are probably one of the only sectors making any reasonable gains in the fight against soaring emissions look at the air and transport sector they’re getting off very lightly but it wouldn’t be popular to go after them..,

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225299#Comment_121225299

True that the aviation industry has gotten off lightly but their time will come :)

oceanman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121223721#Comment_121223721

its the lack of housing that will finish this government when the time comes.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225180#Comment_121225180

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mSVzGnKsXw

😂

When have CO2 level become a "law"?

If we don't hit our CO2 requirements do we all get thrown in jail

It's not a law, it's a requirement which we have heard for years about so called fines if we don't meet them.

Coolcormack1979

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225281#Comment_121225281

Again typical non farmer who doesn’t know the difference between a bullock and a cow.basic biology…. Cows,heifers are female.bulls,bullocks are male. Shows how disconnected the general public are as to where their food comes from.

also there are 1.6 million dairy cows in Ireland.last census said we have 5.2 million people here.plus there are roughly still the same amount of cattle in Ireland for the past 40 odd yrs.

but sure hey kill all them cattle in Ireland and import the whole shooting lot.the green fantasy of turning everything outside the m50 into one massive national park

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225528#Comment_121225528

EU directives are put into domestic law. They are laws. There are many, many laws you can breach that receive financial penalties rather than custodial ones.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225781#Comment_121225781

There are many, many reasonable arguments to be had about worldwide agriculture emissions and the impact of reducing local agriculture if it only results in an increase in foreign agriculture with attendant deforestation and other impacts.

However, Irish farmers by an absolutely massive margin do not feed Irish people. They export their goods to other wealthy countries. If people are going to castigate others for not knowing basic facts about farming it's a bit rich to turn around and pretend Irish farmers are serving a function that they mostly are not.

Cal4567

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225356#Comment_121225356

Yes, and the previous poster to whom you replied, while giving a very thorough 100 years political history in so few words (in reply to Stephen Collins, someone who would give away limbs to see SF not get into government) came across as one of the elderly 'haves' whereas it is the 'have nots' who could decide the future direction of travel.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225781#Comment_121225781

Most people would know them as cows, but there are more cattle than people. If you want the exact description.

The 1.6 million Dairy cows have expanded rapidly in number, by about 40% over the past decade.

Nobodys saying kill them all, but a reduction is needed.

Govt advocates about 60k reduction over the next few years.

Coolcormack1979

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226282#Comment_121226282

And a previous Green Party government recommended everyone who didn’t need to to go get a diesel car.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226282#Comment_121226282

No most people wouldn't know the as cows. Really if you don't understand the difference then it would suggest you are not really an expert on farming as that is a basic

Normally you find the same people are only interested in farming as it is the latest in a long line of excellent ideas from people in regards to CO2. As I said if they kill loads of cattle and we are still no better off, what do we do then? should we maybe start to look at the bigger picture?

Problem is at that stage farming will probably be decimated.

A lot of people talking about Co2 and environment are really in panic mode. Best description. Ask them to think past the current great idea and it falls apart very quickly.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226386#Comment_121226386

The bigger issue is the size of cars, im in a car park in Dublin here, for every 6 vehicles, 1 is a car and rest are SUV/crossover

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226386#Comment_121226386

Thats a great deflection, head in the sand response. :)

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226830#Comment_121226830

But we will be better off as the emissions will reduce.

Other sectors have to do their bit of course, but agri is the sector with the most emissions so it has to do its fair share of reductions.

Thats all thats being asked really. Same for other industries.

downtheroad

What calibre government do people expect to have in reality? I can't understand why anybody would consider becoming a TD these days, to have journalists trawling through your history looking for a dodgy photo they can fill an article with for easy clicks, or have scumbag protestors outside your family home, or be subjected to constant abuse on social media from keyboard warriors.

The money isn't that good, nor enough to attract the best of the best. Instead we get teachers, college dropouts and Violet Anne Wynne.

If you think this government is bad, I can't wait to see what people think of any cabinet formed by SF.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225299#Comment_121225299

I think we should, it's a shame that Ryanair have so much sway over policy in this regard.

Cheap flights are a disaster and make it virtually impossible for citizens to meet their carbon budgets.

Cluedo Monopoly

RTE are running rings around this govt and they fully expect RTE to stump up the shortfall in revenues. Catherine Martin has been utterly useless in tackling the many problems and waste at RTE.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228142#Comment_121228142

What are other industries doing? travel and transport is still based on a private car and majority of people unwilling to step outside of that. How many people have swapped the car for public transport even with all the improvements in the last few years? yes lots of work to be done but the number of buses etc have increased, luas etc.

Why is it been allowed that the whole car industry is moving from cars to Crossovers/SUV? are we not supposed to be looking after the environment? like what exactly is good for the environment with a 100kWh nearly 100k Kia 7 seater which was announced a few days ago? which is over 3 tonne weight, is that better than a diesel S-Max for instance? the S-MAX which the majority would ship families around for 15-20 years.

A lot of people are still voting based on building the road, fixing the road.

Air travel has done nothing. Absolutely nothing.

The list goes on, as I said the buzz word is now farming because it's an easy target and people lap it up. Oh kill a load of cattle and everything will be better

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228154#Comment_121228154

You can think away, but you have zero evidence to draw your conclusions from. So you hate SF - we get it.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228274#Comment_121228274

We have plenty of evidence of SF but everyone is told to ignore it

Even their alternative budget had mistakes in it. If they can't even get a mock budget right how would you expect them to do the real thing?

Apart from show boating and reading a script handed to them, what have SF actually done since the last election?

I doubt the current government will last after the enxt election by the way but people shouting in SF are going to be in for one huge surprise.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228316#Comment_121228316

So an opposition part sets policy now, that's a surprise.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228329#Comment_121228329

Yes they can. Any TD can propose new legislation.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228539#Comment_121228539

Your a funny guy.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228205#Comment_121228205

All true, but the days of cheap air travel are numbered.

Same for cheap online purchases without carbon taxes - where people are buying cheap tat from China that they probably use once, if ever.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228273#Comment_121228273

Let those industries face their own targets and they will be penalised also if they dont meet them.

All farming can do is make changes in its own area and focus there.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228274#Comment_121228274

Hate SF? I didn't say that. Why would I hate them?

Do I trust them to govern the country? Absolutely not. David Cullinane, Louise O'Reilly and Mairead Farrell in cabinet, alongside Eoin O'Broin...give me strength.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228274#Comment_121228274

We wouldn't have zero evidence. Just look at Padraic MacLochlainn in the Dail the other night telling Jennifer Carroll McNeill that Pearse Doherty would put manners on her. That is pretty low for a TD, and he is supposed to be one of the better SF TDs.

MIKEKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121229386#Comment_121229386

You could add Martin Browne to that list . In his election literature before the last election he said he was unemployed . At a time of almost full employment sure!y he could have got some job . Now he is telling the government how to run the country.

Shoog

Your not going to sell the everything's grand narrative to the SF voter when they are paying half their wages in rent and have no propspect of owning a house, many can only afford to live with their parents. You see everything isn't grand for the under 30s, it's a country where owning your own place and having a family seem like impossible dreams.

So maybe FFG have been great for you, but you ain't the people who are looking to SF for a change of priorities.

downtheroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121233691#Comment_121233691

What will SF do to build more houses or to reduce rents?

The only way SF will "fix" housing, is by causing multinationals to leave the country. This will force many people to leave the country, possibly freeing up some accommodation.