Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Neotiate in “good faith” is not possible with Russia - a kleptocratic autocracy.

"Ukraine can be thankful for what it has received but will rightly also feel it was short changed to break the Russian war machine but leave Putin enough gains to keep in power and ensure Russian State stability"

Hurts to say it but maybe even Ukraine has an interest in Russian State stability?0

I think we may well do too -at least in something like a controlled collapse(seems to be coming one way or the other-such fools to imagine they can "elect" dictators and prosper)

(To your other point)Sure Ukraine may feel thankful for the support it has received but it would be entitled to 10 times as much anger and disillusion had it not been so supported.

We are supporting them in our own self interest.They are fighting a war that will mean we don't have to get our own hands dirty and bloody.

Millions and millions of Ukrainians have remained in Ukraine and are willing to fight. Not everyone is in a position to fight. They are the people who have left. The very same thing would happen in most major countries in the world if they were invaded. What a dis - informative post you have made there. Wonder what you’re trying to achieve by making such posts ??? 🤔

A Russian collapse in to chaos would likely be a century defining event.

Letting them hold ground shows the days of Pax Americana and the idea of the West enforcing global order, stability, a rule of law are nearly over.

That's a big thing as well,

There have always been conscientious objectors in wars, and cowards plain and simple, and their existence has never meant that the majority of people wouldn't fight to the death for a cause. In Ukraine's case, there must have also been a sizeable number of people who had always wanted to emigrate into an EU country, and their eyes lit up when they heard that the visa restrictions were scrapped. Those people couldn't get into the EU quick enough.

Would you be happy to have your wife/mother/daughter/sister gang-raped by Russian soldiers occupying your country in the name of "peace"?

Perhaps you have no women you care about in your life? If that's the unlikely case, maybe you'd be happy to be tortured or castrated by those same occupying Russian soldiers for that "peace"?

If not, why do you propose this as a valid option for Ukrainians?

To be fair with the the way drones are those 40/50/60 year olds could literally be using drones and taking out tanks etc. Not exactly on the front line but distance from it, so I say in years to come u could literally be in 1 part of the country and flying small drones and could be taking tanks out and would not need to be near the frontlines at all.

They left Ukraine because Europe offered refuge. Not everyone can fight, and not everyone wants to fight.

Millions left the areas Russia annexed quickly (people that didn't wish to live under Russian occupation) and also areas near current front lines within range of Russian artillery and other attacks, which fighting has made unlivable.

Without the easy access to the EU, the people would mostly have had to be rehoused and supported in unoccupied regions of Ukraine, a large burden for a country trying to defend itself. As already mentioned movements in/out of Ukraine have been ebbing and flowing since then, with the progress of the war etc.

Govt.'s of countries that are facing existential threat + are a gonner if the military fails [a situation we could find it hard to bend our noodles around] will try and urge people to join the military, and will use conscription when they have to. Should not be a big shock.

That this happens is not actually a reflection of public support in Ukraine for continuing fighting, or for the current positions of their govt. on land concessions to Russia to stop the figting etc. No one rational usually wants to fight "to the death" and of course should situation becomes hopeless for Ukraine (it is not I think), they will stop fighting.

It is all just the heaping of misery their neighbour has piled on them, but for some reason you criticise govt. there or those giving military aid that helps them keep fighting.

Russia of course has no need to fight and no reasons to force people into their meat grinder but they are busy doing both all for a filthy war of choice with pretty base goals. Putin can try & throw a coat of patriotic Mother Russia paint on it but we outside the bubble should be able to see what it is. People piping up about Ukraine & conscription don't have very much to say about this here usually!

Look at the end of the day, the only way the war will end is through negotiations. Whether that’s today, tomorrow, next week, month or year.

I’ll be happy once it’s over and people can get back to some semblance of normality. Apparently that makes me some form of Putin supporter. The world is not black and white. There are shades of gray everywhere.

How do you negotiate with someone who has proven they won't stick to an agreement? Ukraine gave up its soviet era nuclear weapons with an agreement with russia that their borders were to be respected yet now putin has taken part of Ukraine and sent hundreds of thousands of troops there to occupy the land they ceased or die trying to do so. I have read some of the weapons they gave up have actually been fired back at Ukraine by putin's forces just to make it even clearer that putin can not be trusted.

The idea that there was going to be a massive break in the moskovyte lines this summer and the occupying troops would be expelled quickly from Ukraine was a nice idea but I suspect Ukraine is aware that they need to destroy putin's war machine so it can't be used against them again and unfortunately I don't think that is going to be achieved very quickly. The Ukrainians are however making progress.

The negotiation is Russia leaves.

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if you think that Ukrainians will accept any kid of " Deal" with the monster who has unleashed hell on their country, its you who needs to think again. If all support for Ukraine was to collapse in the morning ( it won't) and Putin rode into Kiev on his tanks in victory celebrations,, his hell would only be starting. In 10 years Russia was unable to subdue Afghanistan, and remember, his military had the full run of the Country on land and in the air. Yet they failed. And one of the reasons they failed was because the cost of keeping in Afghanistan the military to keep it subdued. It was driving Russia to bankruptcy. Another reason was the Nr of body bags coming home each week, and this was microscopic compared to the Nr of dead and injured Russian's that have and are coming back to Russia on a weekly basis from Ukraine. Ukraine will still be there and still Ukrainian long after Putin and his mafia thugs are long dead and gone. Puti bit off more than he can chew, and already the indigestion is settling in and eventually, it will kill him.