30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

@magicbastarder your argument would be valid if all affected journeys were only in the peak times, and/or only in dense urban environments where there was a need to stop for a yield sign or red light every 100m or so. We both know that this is not true.

@[Deleted User] given that we know that there are more than 300,000,000 vehicle kilometres between fatalities of any kind, and most of those occurring to people inside motor vehicles, we're entitled to ask hard questions. Like, if your point is more theoretical than practical. Or whether we should punish the very small number of people who are actually culpable these incidents, rather than the 2.8 million drivers in Ireland who have nothing whatsoever to do with any of them?

Not sure it matters if you don't feel the need to stop for yield signs or red lights. Then optimum speed is more about law enforcement.

I view forcing 2.8 million people to waste time and fuel crawling for no reason as punitive, yes. And the data are clear that there is basically no reason. Ya know, the data showing more than 300,000,000 vehicle-kilometres between fatalities and those outside cars being the minority.

BS. We saw what "30kph as default" would look like with Dublin City Councils' "Love 30" campaign. "Default" is another word for "basically universal."

In the urban setting you're never getting to more fuel efficient speeds for long enough it to make any difference. To do it you'd be accelerating hard to get there and braking hard for the next junction. It's the exact opposite of fuel efficiency. Average speed in Dublin is shockingly low due to congestion.

It's taking cruising speeds for motorways and such and applying them out of all context to the urban setting. It's nonsense. It's especially nonsense for an ICE vehicle.

Again, your argument assumes that journeys involving an urban area are ONLY at peak times and ONLY in the densest urban cores (e.g. Dublin City Centre).

We can split hairs about numbers, but the fact is it's less efficient if you are capable of holding a speed for any length of time. Which you very much can do if you travel off-peak and/or outside of Dublin City Centre. And so a blanket 30kph policy needs to be justified as it wastes not just people's time, but also fuel. Given that there are more than 300,000,000 vehicle kilometres between fatalities of any cause - which as you correctly pointed out accrue mainly to people in motor vehicles - and the vast majority of Ireland's 2.5/2.8 million drivers will never even be involved in, let alone the cause of a fatal incident, that justification for such deep cuts is a stretch at best.

Again, not all "urban environment" roads are the same. In many cases you can easily cruise for 500m - 2km. And even when there are traffic lights they are often green.

@magicbastarder I never said anything about start-stop traffic. Rather that not every journey in an urban area is subject to start-stop traffic owing to time of day and the density of the area. And yes, there are long straight stretches of road subject to urban limits, which I've pointed out before. It's 2km between Chapelizod and Islandbridge on the R109 in Dublin, for example, and a similar distance between the last junction/lights on the N59 in Galway and the end of urban limits. These are just some examples.

Start wallpapering the place with 30kph limits and everyone who uses those routes is going to have to waste time and fuel crawling for no reason.

@Flinty997 as to the "it's not just about fatalities" your side talks about fatalities endlessly. Like that one who was going on about how "motorists were killing 2 or 3 people every week on our roads" without explaining which of Ireland's 2.5/2.8 million drivers he was accusing, or otherwise how he justified such broad terminology. Or propaganda on the matter from the likes of DaCor referencing the likelihood of bad things happening at various speeds, if your side is going to make the fatalities argument - and your side does so as a matter of routine - practical evidence is relevant.

And I have no idea what you're on about with the "all lights are "green"" line but if you're accusing me of running red lights-

• You're wrong, and,
• I wonder if you're not throwing the proverbial stones from a proverbial glass house.

It's hard to take concerns about fuel savings seriously from those who opposed every possible measure to support sustainable travel options. It's a remarkably narrow focus on fuel saving.

I wouldn't describe things on the side of the road as "obstacles". Usually the reason for someone losing control and hitting something like that, is driving inappropriately for the road and conditions at the time.

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