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DF Commission Report

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'm sure he couldn't give a flying shyte.

    Its about time we got real about the prospects for some of these ancient barracks to serve as modern force command headquarters.

    And I don't just mean the age of the built infrastructure, I mean a secure zone around the base, the space to expand in future if necessary, the space to operate 24/7, with aircraft movements and live firing, in such a way that pain in the hole local Councillors won't be up in arms over noise.

    Personally I think these new command HQs should be on green field sites, near to big towns and motorways, but very much on their own.

    Let Athlone and Mullingar and the rest go for urban regeneration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Its the Commission that said the new Army HQ should be located in the center of the country. They didnt come up with that idea for local votes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Aye, but they didn't specify Custume Barracks did they? Or anywhere for that matter.

    There are more places in the centre of the Country than a square mile on the shabby side of the River in Athlone.

    A green field site is the ideal for this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    If you built a new base there fo Army HQ is there then a need for Athlone & Galway?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Custume and Renmore are perfectly good as Barracks and would hopefully have a positive future, particularly with investment in a renewed Reserve etc.

    But what is being forgotten here, is that Army HQ, as envisioned in the force structure adopted in the Commission report, is NOT a Barracks. It is to be a command office for the Army nationwide, so its main features will be offices for Departments ranging from Intelligence to Logistics, IT facilities, secure communications suites, signal intelligence analysis, chart rooms, secure conference facilities, perhaps Training suites for academic study, duty sleeping accommodation etc etc.

    It will remove these functions from their scattered venues like McKee, the Curragh, Newbridge and put the command and staff officers under one roof.

    Needless to say, this is a long way from a typical Irish Army Barracks with its dorms and stores and workshops and garages.

    Take a look at British Army HQ in Hampshire, its just a big office park, with very few outward signs of it being a military facility at all.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 437 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    Build it on or near the Curragh ….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Good idea. No point in dispersing people all over the place.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I have to say, I don't see any reason why that should not be the case. Still plenty close enough to Dublin and main roads. The UK's HQs for Navy and Army are both located near the major concentrations of military training and basing areas, near Portsmouth and Warminster/Salisbury/Aldershot. I see little reason for geographic centrality over military concentration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Commission spend enoght time on the report they must have a good valid reason why they have recommend that the New Army HQ should be geographically located centreally in the country



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 sopley


    Custume Barracks is the oldest working barracks in Europe. Many of the buildings date from the late 17th / early 18th century and are of significant architectural and historical importance. They need to be preserved no matter what the long term plan is for the site



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 437 ✭✭Grassy Knoll


    There is nearly an argument the DF should be in receipt of heritage grants given so much of their real estate is of the historic variety… for conservation and upkeep …



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So have they forgot to publish the detailed implementation plan that was due at the end of Q2?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Ah sure, it’s not like there’s any global instability to worry about…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Then pay for a new installation for the DF and the move them out of it, given it to the OPW to keep as a museum/money sink. Asking the DF to sustain the costs to maintain heritage buildings while trying to use them as needed for modern demands is insane..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Custume would make a wonderful school in this growing town, or maybe a graduate school for the IT. It could be an hotel or a top class hostel type accommodation for people exploring Ireland on a budget, by bike or on foot. It could be an enterprise hub or a specialist health facility or private clinic. People could even pay to sleep in the Cold War government nuclear bunker!

    It could be anything really, save for high security bespoke 21st Century standard land component Headquarters, which is what is needed.

    In any case, to retain the buildings of historical importance would still mean that most the site could be sold off and/or opened up as new amenity and public realm space.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So if the implementation plan is released in the coming weeks do we expect actual action or more delays?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭RavenP


    What do you believe is the government’s intention here? Do they not want any meaningful defence, even at current level, are they just incompetent or are there disagreements between government parties, departments? This crisis is not new, little seems to be happening, at least on the face of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Maybe its time for a shake up and dismand the army and form a Marine Corps under the navy to act as a fully mechanized infantry unit. With ATCP leaving the defence forces the armys primary role will be overseas



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The table of organisation of the Defence Forces going forward, has been decided.

    There will be three components of equal status, with a separate Chief of Defence and his staff. There will be a larger special operations force across the Army and Navy and no doubt significant cooperation across the services, but the structure is essentially a settled argument.



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran



    In fairness, there is hopefully more to come out than just that. The Army is configured as if it is a pair of mid cold-war light infantry brigades with a few newer systems like Javelin and a few dozen MOWAGs (and apparently no divisional assets to allow the two to work together). The ability for one of those brigades to fight and win in the modern era is... limited. If it is going to retain a proper infantry brigade role, there needs to be a massive re-think of how the units are organized, trained and equipped. (When was the last time there was a Brigade exercise, out of interest? Even just Bde staff level). Otherwise, the units are going to be merely administrative and a lot of the combat support features such as artillery or air defense should be retained at only a token level for familiarisation purposes.

    I've been gently prodding Irish field grades I've encountered the last while on the matter, and it's a question they seem to be discussing in closed circles as well. "What's the desired end-state?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 302 ✭✭mupper2


    As I said over on Twitter I think the NS is terminal at this stage, what needs to be done is too hard and too contentious. The gov won't give the needed budget to up tech etc pay and benefits to give the NS a hope in hell of being competitive to private industry. that would open up the PS unions wanting their slice of the cake.

    So from a gov perspective better to let the NS wither to a point of complete inoperability, they can then turn to the country and say its gone to far to salvage in any economically viable way, not long after that some subsidiary of KBR or whomever will get a nice lengthy contract to run a service with crews from wherever.

    The AC might survive slightly better if only and the army has the ceremonial duties, the horsy club and the bands the politicians like.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Let's see what the government actually does, shall we? They do seem to have been awoken from their blinkered state that perhaps they actually should do something about DF personnel recruiting and retention.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Would there need to be any regulations changed to allow civvy maintenance contractors  to serve on a naval ship?

    I know the air corps used an american to fly the gulfsteam at one stage but that was unarmed so probally allowed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    So?

    The Government have nothing to lose by ploughing on with the path of action they have adopted. Some leadership in this area would be a change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Yes and specifically I know that Martin. McGrath and Coveney are shaken by the Naval Service situation. Its not just the employment presence, there is great Community ownership of the NS tradition in Cork City and Harbour area. Two maybe three elections in 2024 have focused the minds.

    However, and there is no getting around this, the only way to truly address pay deficiency, is to break into the public sector pay agreements and thats doomsday stuff for any centrist Government.

    I guess it becomes which Doomsday is the lesser of two evils for them....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,381 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Given other seagoing PS get higher rates, why is this an impossibility?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,481 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Because of the current analagous grading attached to the NS. And all public servants. And they are not linked to other seagoing services.

    Fiddling with any one grade, any one allowance, in the public service pay schedule, is like ripples in the water when you cast a stone. You'll have everyone from lab assistants to Oireachtas stewards crying foul.

    I'm not saying its right, but thats the way it is. And given that a) junior teachers and pre-reg nurses, to name but two, still can't get onto a single unified scale and b) the Government are trying to avoid pay driven inflation at all costs, I don't hold out much hope of them opening the coffers in any radical way to address recruitment and retention.

    Which is not an optimistic situation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,268 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Is there actually anyone in charge at the moment?



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