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Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

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  • The beach is indeed a public venue, and an organised event took place that paid little heed to the adverse weather in an area known for its currents. One known existing danger is enough, only strong swimmers need apply, add another, it’s sadly more likely to be game over for some.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭TokTik


    If it is a non-sanctioned event due to TI not sanctioning it, would their volunteers/safety teams in the water be insured to be there? Would TI not have a duty of care towards them??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,353 ✭✭✭radiospan


    I haven't seen stroke rate so I might be wrong. We could be talking about different people also. Doesn't feel right to me to analyze it any further.

    RIP to both men.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭griffin100


    That’s not quiet how it works in a typical TI sanctioned triathlon (although your general point is correct).

    To get TI sanction you need to submit a race safety plan and some other bits. TI sanction the race which means their public liability insurance covers the race and the race is run in line with TI / ITU rules around things like water quality, max swim distance for the water temperature, rules on water and air temperature differential, etc. All racers will need have to have either TI membership or a one day licence from TI to race in a TI sanctioned race.

    The organisers of the event source the race director for the event, marshals, safety officers, etc. They run the event on the day.

    TI send a technical official and referee to the event and they make sure rules are obeyed and they guide the Race Director who is technically in overall charge. TI’s officials are not full time, they’re usually triathletes who give their time to the sport.

    So say the water in a triathlon was too cold for a 1,500m under ITU rules, then the TI referee / technical delegate would tell the Race Director to shorten the swim to whatever the ITU rules deem appropriate for the water temperature. If they declined TI would withdraw sanction and by default insurance for the race and tbh you’d never get approval from TI for another race and that would be a disaster for a club race as you’d never afford the insurance without TI providing it.

    I’m not fully positive that it works the same way when TI sanctions an IM race but from talking to people when I did the race in 2019 I think it does.

    Ironman as a company turning over 100’s millions of dollars every year can take the risk of telling TI no (not saying that was done here). For a company of that size not having TI insurance is not an issue, they would just depend on a global policy or self insure.

    As I mentioned in a earlier post the current President of TI ran his own races without TI sanction for a number of years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    Wetsuits are for wimps anyway



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭TokTik


    I’m specifically talking about their safety staff etc. If TI state it is unsafe to sanction, yet still allow their staff/volunteers to enter the water, what recourse would those people have if something happened to them??

    Surely TI can’t say that the water is unsafe, but still send their safety staff and volunteers out in it??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭Genghis


    I think there's a misconception around what TI do.

    Typically the TI team would be small, say 2 officials, 1 who will liaise with the RD over a couple of months pre race (checking the race plan and ensuring it's up to scratch) and then on the day do the final sanction (written, co-signed race licence); the second official will be race referee on the day.

    These people are not employees, they have to do specific training, but get paid expenses only. They do it to support the sport, very often they are triathletes themselves.

    For small events TI may even send only one person (covering everything), for large events (or championship races) there can be say 5 or 6 sent, but the additional people being more involved with referee assistance (drafting enforcement).

    TI do NOT provide safety cover in the water or anywhere else, they do NOT marshall the event, and they do not organise any part of the race.

    They would make sure that cover is appropriate and in place as part of their assessment / sanction.

    @griffin100 above post is excellent too for understanding what TI do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭griffin100


    As I said in my post the persons on the water or those acting as race safety officers are usually not TI staff or TI volunteers. They are usually engaged directly by the race organisers, in this case IM.

    If anyone suffers an injury and they think TI is at fault for their injury they can sue TI irrespective of whether the race is sanctioned by them or not. You can sue any third party if you think they have caused you an injury. That’s how civil claims work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭TokTik


    So TI staff leaving the event would not have put competitors in danger. Which flies in the face of some of the comments above



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,487 ✭✭✭plodder


    Don't know anything about the rights and wrongs here, but I just spent a couple of days in the area of Youghal and driving around it really struck me that the event is massively important and valued by everyone living in the area. Like literally almost every business and house in a significant radius (still) has flags and bunting out to support it. I really hope they can learn whatever needs to be learned and can continue to hold the event going forward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,784 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Yes, hopefully if there were safety shortcomings they can be remediated, but it would be terrible if there was another knee-jerk reaction and made it harder to stage events like this in Republic of Ireland. You could argue that the full Iron Man is not a good idea for anyone:

    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/coach-blog/athlete-deaths-in-triathlon-and-how-to-prevent-them/

    "As well as having almost twice as many deaths as marathons, triathlons differ in another respect—the timing of those deaths. In marathons, deaths usually occur late in the race or just after the finish, whereas for triathlons, the vast majority of deaths happen early, often in the first minutes of the race. This difference can be attributed to the presence of a swim in triathlons and all of the stresses that puts on the heart right at the beginning of the race."

    but people should be free to take certain risks, once those risks are made clear to them in advance.

    For example, adventure tourism in Ireland is struggling to survive: https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2023/0511/1383107-insurance-costs-crippling-adventure-tourism-say-centre-owners/

    "The problems that the Irish adventure tourism sector has with insurance are not replicated elsewhere in Europe, Great Britain or even in Northern Ireland. This is an Irish problem"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    I saw a much wider scoped video of the swim, previously had only seen the one of everyone entering the water battling the breaking waves.

    Complete and utter lunacy. If one person went out swimming in it and required rescuing I'd have said fool putting rescuers at risk.

    To see 100s of people in there, unable to stay on course because of conditions was just insane. They're blessed there wasn't numerous more deaths.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 453 ✭✭nokiatom


    The swim went ahead but no one considered the storm the day before. Under normal conditions when the tide is filling the current runs west east parallel to the beach in towards the town. On Saturday the event was cancelled due to the storm. The wind was w/sw. This greatly increases the speed of the current. This increase in speed can last up to three days after the storm. For the average person they would not notice this due to the swells breaking. So when they were swimming out the current was taking them away from the marker they were heading for. This meant you had to swim harder to get to the marker. You also had the swells breaking but this was closer to the beach only. Once they rounded the marker they were now going with the current and most swimmers said they flew into swim end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,026 ✭✭✭sporina


    I messaged Iron man to ask why they didn't cancel the event after the 2 men died..

    this is the reply I got

    .......

    While IRONMAN events are physically challenging, the safety and security of athletes is the most important operational element for our events. IRONMAN has extensive and stringent, industry-leading safety guidelines and protocols, honed to the highest international standards, and implemented at events worldwide. The decision to continue the event in the midst of a tragic loss is made with these safety protocols in mind as well as being the most respectful way forward for athletes on course.


    Every athlete on the course was completing a personal journey that may have started many months ago and, when factored with further safety risks and challenges potentially being created by stopping the race, it was determined that allowing athletes to continue to progress through the course was the best course of action in this scenario.

    ...........

    So based on that - maybe they just ignored Triathlon Ireland and just went ahead with the event - sanctioned or not



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    I can tell you as a participant in the race that the swim was fine, yes it was choppy getting to the first turn but once reached the current was pushing you back towards the swim exit.

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    If that beach had a lifeguard there'd have been a red flag up.

    Crazy that a licensed organised event took place imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 122 ✭✭spc78


    Bit of a stretch to say no one considered the storm the day before - the 70.3 had already been postponed from the day before!

    The day of the race is not the time to be entering the ocean for the first time and realising theres such a thing as a current in the sea - ironmans own beginner ironman training plans have you training for this 6 months out and from 4 months out swimming an ocean swim once a week with probably 6-10km of swimming a week - anyone who is doing that will have no problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    From your post earlier "I done the full IM yesterday in Cork, the swim was rough at the beginning as you were swimming against the waves but once we hit the first turn buoy and back towards the lighthouse and to shore the tide was with you so it was fine, now I’ve done many of these events and if your nervous in the water I can definitely see how some would panic in those conditions."

    I'd guess that you are a strong Ironman athlete, used to rough sea and currents. The problems arising here seem to be more to do with those competing in the half Ironman, lots of personal testimony at this stage that they struggled and in some cases were in fear of their lives. It was the organisers duty to think of all the participants, not just the most capable.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    If I was involved in an insurance company indemnifying events like this, I think I'd be pretty disgusted at what went down. That decisions were made that exposed the company to risk well beyond what is normally understood to be at stake in such events.

    Ironman Inc is big business and well able to ride that problem. The issue could hit the many related type triathlon and adventure racing/ challenge events that are increasingly common here. I'd guess the organisers and promoters of these must be very concerned at the casual disregard shown for the safety of participants and the possible impact on insuring their events.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,059 ✭✭✭Princess Calla


    To be fair deaths are not uncommon and a quick search will tell you most deaths occur during the swim section. So to say a company was exposed to a risk beyond what is normally understood to be at stake is a bit inaccurate.

    When it comes to sea swimming there are so many unknowns that can influence the outcome. It really is down to each individual to know their own limits and judge conditions accordingly.

    If you try to push that back to a company you'll most likely end up in a situation where you have to take part in qualifying races throughout the year to prove you can handle the sea. Turning it into more of an industry than it already is, driving up costs even further.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Its good to get honest unbiased posts like this. I never trust the media after an incident like this. Shock and fear sells, strange how it is only the participants that were fearful of their lives that get onto the vox pops.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,002 ✭✭✭Marty Bird


    I’ve done 10 Ironman events over the last few years, I personally found the swim fine but I can definitely see if your a nervous swimmer or first timer the conditions could make some panic as pointed out by @Furze99 from my earlier post.

    🌞6.02kWp⚡️3.01kWp South/East⚡️3.01kWp West



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,543 ✭✭✭✭blade1


    A friend of my brothers said he found the swim fine as well.

    Even some where delighted with their swims.

    I don't remember the exact times but I think they were expecting the first few swimmers to do it in around 20 minutes so were surprised to see the leader do it in 14 minutes and so many seconds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    Slipping out of the news feed. Reminded me of the Creeslough gas explosion. What's happening with that?



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,548 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,097 ✭✭✭✭billyhead




  • Registered Users Posts: 243 ✭✭Aquals


    The fact that so many swimmers were delighted with their swim times, and with how quickly they completed that section of the race, tells you everything you need to know about the sea current they were in that day.

    A very strong current pushed them from the turnaround buoy to the finish line. Unfortunately most of them had to get to the buoy first, by swimming against that current, and were completely exhausted by the time they got there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭Genghis


    Behind a paywall again, but Irish Times article today saying Ironman plan to sue TI next week unless their statement is withdrawn.

    Also confirms that Arachas was the insurer and TI CEO emailed clubs last Friday night to say Arachas had confirmed the personal accident policy “was operative during the event” subject to “usual” terms and conditions. Surprised me to read that so clear, presumably Arachas accept claims to be made by the two athletes, or had Arachas been able to confirm insurance was primarily Ironman's insurer??

    Interesting in any event to now see TIs next move: crumble or double down.





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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 132 ✭✭MikeCairo78


    Arachas are merely the broker and would have no say on cover. It will be very simple from a personal accident point of view - if the race was correctly sanctioned or not. If not, no cover will apply, it is that black and white. It will then fall between the Professional Liability policies for both organisations. Working in insurance I would imagine the Ironman policy is based on American paper and the policy that will react, if any policy at all will be the TI policy. To get to that stage, however it will be a very long and drawn out affair. But if the race wasnt correctly sanctioned, I doubt the Personal Accident policy(which is a benefit policy, a pays out if y occurs, and would be in place for injury) will not pay out in the normal course of things, though public pressure may force it to may an Ex Gratia payment(policy shouldnt react, but because of the circumstance we will pay you a certain sum). Whatever it is that people say about personal responsibility, the insurance that people are referring to is the Personal Accident / Benefit policy in place for TI sanctioned events



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭Genghis


    Thanks Mike. I would be interested in clarifying a couple of things, mainly in an effort to try to understand what TI have been saying.

    You reckon that if the race was not sanctioned by TI, there would have been no personal accident insurance (notwithstanding any insurance Ironman have). I think we all would expect that, but that is not what the CEO of TI has said publicly.

    I suppose I am trying to rationalise the two CEO actions, namely:

    • Mon 21 August - high profile press release clearly saying TI could not [and did not] sanction the event
    • Fri 25 August - email to all clubs clarifying the event insurance was "operative during the event" never the less

    This seems to suggest that insurance cover was not dependent on TI sanction?

    Also, I get what you say about Arachas being a broker (not an insurer) and that you'd expect they would have no say on cover. But the Irish Times report that Arachas DID clarify cover, and did so presumably because TI were seeking clarification from them which they intended to publish to their members via clubs? Why would Arachas not have reserved comment or directed TI to ask the insurer? You would have to think that TI asked Arachas, Arachas asked the insurer, and the clarity was then sent out??



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    For a sport / event that tends to attract high net worth individuals (perhaps intelligent people) to compete, it's really astonishing there is such confusion re what is / is not in place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭griffin100


    It doesn't really matter whether not the personal accident cover was in place during the event. The families of the 2 men who died will get a small payout under this policy if it was in place if there is a payment for death on the policy. On these types of policies there usually is and it's probably around €25k / €50k.

    The big potential for a civil claim here is around whether or not there was negligence on behalf of TI or IM that lead to the participant deaths. That will require the families of the deceased to take a claim against either of both of the parties and for a legal judgement to be made in favor of the plaintiff or defendant(s), or it could be settled without going to trial. If found liable TI or IM's liability insurers would probably cover the costs of any payout, but event if they didn't TI is an NGB affiliated to Sport Ireland and IM is a multi national multi million entity. Both will be fine in dealing with any uninsured costs. People tend to get caught up on insurance, but lots of large organisations operate with essentially no insurance and they 'self insure' for claims made against them, i.e. pay out the claims from their reserves or a special fund that they put aside - Dublin Bus for example self insures against personal injury claims (or at least they used to).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Are you implying that Sport Ireland i.e. the taxpayer could be picking up the tab for potentially large civil claims?

    If so, can't see the general public being overly enthused about this idea.

    A large events management company from outside the state runs an event in conditions that maybe shown in court to be reckless and the taxpayer might pick up the tab.....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,986 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    @Furze99 - "A large events management company from outside the state runs an event in conditions that maybe shown in court to be reckless and the taxpayer might pick up the tab....."

    Hey that rings a bell, where did we see that before? Oh yeah with the catholic paedophile priest scandal. Sure it only cost us taxpayers a billion or so...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭griffin100


    Not necessarily, what I mean is that if TI were subject to a large uninsured claim they are unlikely to be allowed by Sport Ireland to go belly up. That said I think it's highly unlikely that if found legally liable in any way that TI's liability insurers wouldn't pay up. It's a core tenet of liability policies that they pay up for claims where the insured is found legally liable that occur in the normal course of the insured's business.

    How IM would respond to any claims in the Irish courts would be interesting. They have no legal entity status in Ireland so could just ignore any claims. That said this might cause problems for them in other jurisdictions if they are seen to run away from a court case.

    It's all crystal ball gazing at this stage. I think we will know a lot more about where this might end up when the coroners inquests are completed and the actual cause of death are announced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,084 ✭✭✭Genghis


    Excellent context, thanks @griffin100



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,351 ✭✭✭Ardent


    It's all gone a bit quiet on this. Has it been swept under the carpet already?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 453 ✭✭nokiatom




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,254 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    The gardai are part of the investigation now so it's unsurprising the tit-for-tat has ceased.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,548 ✭✭✭valoren


    They would have drone footage so presumably this will be handed over for examination.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 418 ✭✭munsterfan2


    As someone who participated in the swim / IM this is the first I've seen of this request. Surely they can get the list of participants from IM / TI



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Will all come out in the wash eventually. Queue announcements in due course that triathlons and similar challenge events sadly have to be cancelled due to exorbitant insurance premiums and the gov must intervene etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,576 ✭✭✭Rows Grower


    It's an appeal to the general public not just the competitors and it was only announced today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,198 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    This being discussed now on tonights Prime Time on RTÉ1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,254 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Details here, don't think all the bluster by Ironman about suing has much of a leg to stand on.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 418 ✭✭munsterfan2


    One stat that was missed was how many people didnt complete the swim, if you go through the results there are 322 DNS / DNF's. Rather than just saying there was a lot of people pulled out of the water someone could have gone through the results to see how many DNF's took no further part than the swim. Compare that to the average / std. dev of DNF's for an IM70.3 and you get a proper indication if the swim was reckless.

    (DNS - did not start, DNF - did not finish)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,697 ✭✭✭prunudo


    As the event was due to take place on the Saturday some people of the dns may have been unable to do the Sunday start to accommodation or transport plans. The dnf would probably be the best measure.



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