Two die in the Ironman at Youghal

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015655#Comment_121015655

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/08/23/youghal-ironman-conflicting-accounts-from-triathlon-ireland-and-ironman-organisers-worrying/

Green TD Mark Ó Cathasaigh, who has completed two Ironman events and helped to organise triathlons, said when he was a triathlon organiser a race would not have proceeded if the race referee did not sanction it.

Something doesn't add up.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015719#Comment_121015719

The money was already in their account and it was never going to be leaving even if they ad cancelled the entire race, so the argument isn't really there. I get most of ye have never done any IM event but they're not keen on parting with money already paid and if you do manage to get some back it will be a pittance in comparison to what you paid.

Deferral was offered to 70.3 entrants after Sat was cancelled/rescheduled to Sunday.

You could argue they had 2024 in mind and previous cancellations/covid hit them hard. IM have already changed the format from a 2 day to a one day event next year as uptake in the full is low in comparison to the half. It will be interesting to see how Sundays outcome of an albeit hurried one day event will sway minds. Either way next year is their last contracted race I believe, so if they somehow push ahead with it I'm sure that will be the last for Youghal possibly Ireland.

VinLieger

Im still interested to hear if the water safety team actually asked to cancel the swim as well as was claimed by a poster yesterday who said they were at the event. If that's true whoever overruled them needs a serious grilling.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015482#Comment_121015482

This word sanction is being abused to the point of being meaningless now.

Is there a governance process somewhere stating that if TI do not "sanction" the event, the event should not take place? Is it in writing somewhere?

It comes across as a CYA exercise by TI unless there is due process and procedure.

Fighting over the timing of the verbal "non sanction" is futile unless there is a defined governance process and schedule for event approval/go-ahead.

Rows Grower

Looks like the Gardai will become involved, as Simon Harris said, "there can only be one set of facts and some of the disagreeing about the facts is unedifying to put it mildly."

https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2023/0823/1401201-iroman-cork/

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015864#Comment_121015864

The article talks of investigations but the only specific reference to Gardai is below.

It says:

My colleague Minister Byrne has been very clear in relation to Sport Ireland now having the space and the opportunity to help try and ascertain some of those facts and I'm also very conscious that the gardaí may be preparing a file for the coroner too, so there'll be a number of processes that are underway.

That doesn't mean as part of that they will look into establishing all the facts about the event, or just do the minimum as part of a coroner's report.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015811#Comment_121015811

It doesn't really make sense and as mentioned earlier on radio, a coroners hearing may not really be the vehicle to establish the ins and outs. That will just deal in the core facts. Maybe a civil case will follow and arguments made there or an official inquiry of some other nature.

The other related odd thing, is the claim made by many here that it's not practical or even possible to halt an triathlon event like this, once it's in progress. I can understand why you might not want to suspend the race. But surely there has to be some mechanism for this to happen, if needs be? Otherwise I don't see how they can be sanctioned by the public authorities.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015896#Comment_121015896

It wasn't in progress though, right? The sanction / non-sanction happens before it starts.

Understandably, the sanction has to happen fairly late as they need to assess current conditions and safety setups. However, surely there has to be a mechanism by which competitors can be informed if the sanction fails.

If they cannot inform competitors of a refusal to sanction in a timely fashion, so that people know they have no insurance etc, before the event starts and anyone steps foot in the sea, then the process is just broken.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015850#Comment_121015850

The argument is there. More frequent cancellations equals less future competitors.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015959#Comment_121015959

I assume you don't know the draw IM events have so.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015909#Comment_121015909

Well thats what TI are saying but the organisers are today claiming that they werent told about the not sanctioning until it had all finished..... somebody is lying

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015998#Comment_121015998

But similarly, competitors are saying they had no idea it wasn't sanctioned.

The competitors pay money to TI for insurance, right? I believe they become one-day members of TI to take part in a TI sanctioned race.

Do TI themselves not have an obligation to inform the people who paid them money that they are refusing to sanction?

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015988#Comment_121015988

Condescending.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015909#Comment_121015909

No denying the system is broken or was it ever right in the first place is the real question.

A governing body without any meaningful overall say is basically all bark and no bite.

I'd imagine the majority of entrants weren't even aware of what TI sanctioning meant before this IM event. they probably would've been none the wiser if told on the morning also but at least they would've been informed.

Everyone that entered the water Sunday did so of their own choice that is on each individual. The break down in water safety is the major issue, Metalman swim was cancelled this year as the current was so strong the current was dragging the turn buoys under. One person might say they should've just had bigger buoys another would realise the current was too strong for the majority of swimmers so better to cancel. 🤷‍♂️

I'm not sure the blame game is useful. I think now it's a matter of learning from the mistakes and making water safety paramount and the the individual or organisation should be separate from the race director/organisers.

I still firmly believe there should be a strict qualifying criteria for these races.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015717#Comment_121015717

This is a money racket like the commercial ascents of Everest.

Once "experienced sea swimmer standard" is introduced watch numbers fall off a climb as most won't give it the time.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121016008#Comment_121016008

Indeed, personally I would say its should be up to the organisers but thats just me and ive no experience wiuth these events so not completely familiar with the relationship between the competitors, organisers and TI, there's surely a process for this that is in place as I doubt this is the first time its happened. But if there isn't an official process then that's just another problem and why we are seeing the finger pointing.

iwillhtfu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121016097#Comment_121016097

The swim distances aren't that colossal and imo it would be no harm to put an emphasis on swim training. People will still want to tick the box and also you can be sure where there are rules there will be guys with a work around. At least it would be seen as being proactive and they could be as simple as organised training days with your tri club.

fits

They still shouldn’t send people into seas like that though. It was difficult to navigate the safety kayaks safely never mind watch swimmers at the same time.

A touch of victim blaming going on here.

Paidin Mhaire

Slightly unrelated but where an Ironman event like Youghal takes place, considering the number of participants and entrants fees paid we can take it over 1M euro is grossed for the event(s). Am I to understand that volunteers on the day are unpaid, including those in rescue services, in rescue kayaks etc. ?

Perhaps someone can confirm, thanks.

radiospan

Main headline on Irish Times now is that they had to sign a waiver.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/08/23/youghal-ironman-participants-signed-waiver-warning-of-risk-of-illness-injury-and-even-death/

Aren't these "waivers" normal for these kinds of events?

I'm sure I've signed those for mountain runs, half-marathons, maybe even shorter distances. Hardly headline worthy is it?

JMcL

I'd imagine the majority of entrants weren't even aware of what TI sanctioning meant before this IM event. they probably would've been none the wiser if told on the morning also but at least they would've been informed.

Several days after it's not at all clear from the Reservoir Dogs-like standoffs on all sides what TI "sanctioning" means. If it's only in the context of recognising the competition as counting toward TI leaderboards or qualifying for something (I freely admit I've no idea about this) and the ultimate authority lies with IM as CCC imply, then it's largely irrelevant to any argument other than "I told ye, but would ye listen?". If they were charged with assessing safety on the day, then that should have been signed off before anybody put a tow in the water - not denied several hours afterwards when the tragedy has become clear. It's also serious if their refusing sanction invalidates competitors event license/insurance.

As regards the volunteers for marshalling, if they're volunteering, they're volunteering and TI can't really say "Right, down tools, we're out". Besides I'd imagine anyone who HAD volunteered wouldn't countenance abandoning swimmers in those conditions.

I suspect that this is going to run for a while and will need a fairly serious investigation (not just the coroner who will only be concerned with the tragic fatalities) to get to the bottom of it.

thehairygrape

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017088#Comment_121017088

Don’t know about kayaks, emergency services etc but volunteering for IM is quite common. Handing out gels, putting medals on athletes, loads of different things. I suppose a paid volunteer is a bit of an oxymoron, so no, don’t get paid afaik. People do it for many reasons: club members helping out their club mates, the sense of community, the buzz. It’s not unique to IM. Lots of commercially run races depend on volunteers. All I can say is that I’m always grateful for their help and input.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015601#Comment_121015601

Were TI staff/volinteers nvolved in tbe event or were they just observing?

It would be normal for a National Governing Body to send observers to monitor an unsanctioned event and report back on what happened.

jnk883

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017179#Comment_121017179

Clubs did get money towards volunteering. If you were a group you get assigned out and the club get paid (water stations, transition, check in / out etc). Another way for fundraising. This is not restricted to Tri clubs. Its paid by Ironman. Not huge money but enough to get a club involved.

spc78

Seems to be a huge amount of discussion & comment around the conditions of the swim start and up to rounding (or not rounding) the first buoy. However, from various comments it would appear one swimmer and almost completed the swim (so was well clear of that section) and the other swimmer could also be seen from his Strava GPS track to have well cleared that section also. Most likely cause of swim death in a triathlon is cardiac event rather than drowning from rough conditions and that's what it looks like here too. Coroner's report will obviously tell. While waivers were signed, the organizers have a duty to have sufficient rescue plans in place regardless of waiver - the waiver covers them for the cardiac event it does not cover them for e.g not being able to rescue a swimmer in distress due to not enough boats/kayaks

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015717#Comment_121015717

We should stop blaming orginisations / events when people voluntarily participate in an event and get hurt because they can't handle the circumstances. It's their own risk. I did an Olympic triathlon (about a quarter of an Iron Man) once, when I was a teenager and very fit. Most participants were middle aged men who were not good swimmers.

And let's be clear here: an Iron Man is by definition a very high risk activity. The human body was not made for this (look up where the name Marathon came from). Most participants will be fine, but there will always be a high risk of death. Some would call it accidental, others would call it entirely self-inflicted.

I watched all the videos on the start of this swim and, although not ideal because the large number of people starting at almost the same time, I have done swimming and windsurfing in much worse conditions. I would have had no problem with that, but of course an inexperienced open water swimmer could get into difficulty. If they weren't confident in the first few meters, they could have and should have safely returned to shore.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017402#Comment_121017402

Sure why have safety people at all, sure its pointless

the greek marathon story is just that, a story, the human body is made for this

fits

All the people who say they have swum in worse conditions. ARE YOU INSANE???

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121017463#Comment_121017463

Like I said, most trained Iron Men can handle it, but there is a strong chance participants will die. See the statistics that several people posted on this thread.

I never said it was pointless to have safety people. Accidents happen and safety should be in place in any organised race.

csirl

While not familiar with Triathlon, I have some experience of the sanctioning process in another sport. I assume most sports are similar. Generally speaking sanctioning is all about compliance with the minimum H&S standards for the sport..It generally has nothing to do with being part of the Governing Bodies own schedule of events, standings etc. Essentially going thru the 'checklist' of what needs to be in place for the event to safely take place. Applications would normally be made in advance and approved in advance subject to compliance on the day. For example, in the sport I was involved in there is a requirement for a paramedic crew/ambulance to be present. Organisers would be told that if e.g. the crew were not present, the sanction is automatically invalid. The reality is that an organiser may agree to do X,Y, Z in advance, but until the day of the event, you dont really know if they will.

The big problem is that there is a huge inbalance in power between the National Governing Body and these private organisers. They seem to have a direct line to the Dept of Tourism & Sport and will frequently complain about Governing Bodies. The Dept ALWAYS backs the organiser citing tourism/economics etc. The Dept is also quick to threaten Governing Bodies with withdrawing funds e.g. Sporrs Capital and Sport Ireland NGB grants if sanction is not given.

I nentionec earlier in this thread that a Govetning Body got a dressing down for refusing to sanction an event that didnt have safety up to scratch. This was an event involving c.50 people run by a part time sole trader - not something you'd think would get such a response from high ranking government officials.

Two other things I came across in my time:

1. Private operator was refusing to put in place some safety requirements (as they cost money)........The Dept made the Governing Body arrange and pay for them out of its own funds - threatening withdrawal of grants. So essentially fees collected from members including kids were diverted to this private event.

2. Private opetator failing sanctiion process and decides to cut losses and withdraw from the event even though people from overseas had arranged travel/,hotel etc. Dept made the Governing Body run a replacement event at its own cost because of "the embarrasment to Ireland if people who paid money to come to Ireland didnt get their event.

In each of the above no additional funding was given to the Governing Body.

There is also the conflict of interest in that local authorities and the tourism bodies sometimes "sponsor" (i.e. grant aid) these events. They NEVER check with the Governing Body re sanctioning requirements.